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I'm afraid I have seen the future of SASS and I'm very unsure whether I like it or not.


Noz

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I recently attended a large SASS match.

 

Now before you begin browbeating me I will say: It was an excellent match. The targets were good, the food was good, the organization was so good you just kinda slid through the match (over 300 shooters through 6 stages in a hair over 4 hours). The Props were good and the attitude of the host club was without reproach.

I had a good time, but then I always do.

 

The targets were very large and very close. The sequences were very simple and allowed the targets to be addressed with very little muzzle movement. There was some foot movement but it was on secure footing and very fast.

 

I think my dismay was that the targets were so close and the sequences so simple that hitting the targets was assumed. Only if you ran so fast that you were out of control did you risk a miss. Sight alignment was of no necessity.

 

We had many sub 15 second strings fired.

 

Do I want something fixed? No I don't think so because it think this is the future of SASS.

 

With my age, infirmities, weapon choices and shooting style that I choose I can never hope to be with in 15 seconds of the top shooters on my very best days. I know that. The age and infirmities I can't change but I could change style and weapons to be much more competitive but I don't wish to do so.

 

With rare super talented exceptions the winners are all going to be two hand-supported shooters, shooting light weight bullets out of

highly tuned 38s

 

I tried to go as fast as I could and did shoot some fast stages for me. Not any where close to the "good" shooters.

 

I came within a gun malfunction of shooting a clean match and I would have been pleased with that but I felt an overall sense of non-accomplishment. Kinda like kissing your sister: It tasted good, smelled good, she's sort of pretty but it doesn't mean a thing.

 

Maybe my lot in life is to attend smaller annual shoots that don't necessarily cater to the speed shooters. Again. I have nothing against said speed shooters and if I were 45 years younger I'd probably be trying to play with them.

 

So, and I'm sure you don't care, I will try staying a little closer to home and shoot with people more my capabilities. I may venture to some of the matches that I know will allow me to keep old friendships alive.

 

Again, I'm not in any way knocking anyones style of shooting and certainly not the matches them selves. I'm just saying It's not for me anymore.

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I'm surprised there was 300 shooters and none that were of your age or capabilities. But I do understand that there is certain challenges your looking for. Winter Range is the biggest match that I know of. I think it's a great event and match. I have talked to many people who have shot it and read what many more shooters had to say about it. Never has anyone used Big And Close to describe that match. So don't let one large match get you down too much. Talk to as many people as possible about a match before signing up. I find that each club has a personality. Some I like and some I don't. Good luck.

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My daughter and I are just getting started and we made a pact that the only people we'd compete against were ourselves. We're just going to enjoy spending time together and not worry about the other stuff. I hope you continue to enjoy this sport. I've been in martial arts, team roping, shooting and others. This is BY FAR the best group of people I've ever encountered. Again, I hope you stay and stay happy!

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I hear what you're saying, Noz and you're correct for the most part. Big and close seems to be the thing and there are lots of folks, including me that like it that way. I shoot a local match here that is small targets far away and the attendance is getting smaller all of the time. I travel to the larger matches to shoot, not compete and spend time with all my friends that I've made and look for more. The pendulum may swing back to the smaller and farther away matches some day but I doubt we'll be around to see it. Big and close seems to be what's making the sport grow.

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I recently attended a large SASS match.

 

Now before you begin browbeating me I will say: It was an excellent match. The targets were good, the food was good, the organization was so good you just kinda slid through the match (over 300 shooters through 6 stages in a hair over 4 hours). The Props were good and the attitude of the host club was without reproach.

I had a good time, but then I always do.

 

The targets were very large and very close. The sequences were very simple and allowed the targets to be addressed with very little muzzle movement. There was some foot movement but it was on secure footing and very fast.

 

I think my dismay was that the targets were so close and the sequences so simple that hitting the targets was assumed. Only if you ran so fast that you were out of control did you risk a miss. Sight alignment was of no necessity.

 

We had many sub 15 second strings fired.

 

Do I want something fixed? No I don't think so because it think this is the future of SASS.

 

With my age, infirmities, weapon choices and shooting style that I choose I can never hope to be with in 15 seconds of the top shooters on my very best days. I know that. The age and infirmities I can't change but I could change style and weapons to be much more competitive but I don't wish to do so.

 

With rare super talented exceptions the winners are all going to be two hand-supported shooters, shooting light weight bullets out of

highly tuned 38s

 

I tried to go as fast as I could and did shoot some fast stages for me. Not any where close to the "good" shooters.

 

I came within a gun malfunction of shooting a clean match and I would have been pleased with that but I felt an overall sense of non-accomplishment. Kinda like kissing your sister: It tasted good, smelled good, she's sort of pretty but it doesn't mean a thing.

 

Maybe my lot in life is to attend smaller annual shoots that don't necessarily cater to the speed shooters. Again. I have nothing against said speed shooters and if I were 45 years younger I'd probably be trying to play with them.

 

So, and I'm sure you don't care, I will try staying a little closer to home and shoot with people more my capabilities. I may venture to some of the matches that I know will allow me to keep old friendships alive.

 

Again, I'm not in any way knocking anyones style of shooting and certainly not the matches them selves. I'm just saying It's not for me anymore.

So did the majority of shooters enjoy the match? Were those sub 15 second stages in Silver Senior and above categories? What category do you shoot in? I am having a difficult time understanding why sub 15 second shooters bother your shooting. As was stated earlier, Winter Range is not known as a big and close match. If you look at Winter Range scores, I would bet at least a dozen shooters shot some 15 second stages, and many stages faster than that. Winter Range stages also have a lot of movement between guns.

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You have a choice of what kind of shooting competition you participate in. I think you will find that SASS is, by far, the friendliest for older shooters. In most other competitive shooting sports you will find a lot more running, stooping, bending etc.

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Did your match with 300 shooters have targets larger than SASS recommended size or at distances closer than SASS recommended distances?

See SASS recommendations:

"There are no absolute rules, but we suggest the following
distances, by firearm, if using a target approximately 16" X 16":
Revolver – 7 to 10 yards Shotgun – 8 to 16 yards Rifle – 13 to 50 yards"

 

One of the most successful matches for many years, is Bordertown. The match is held in Oct with applications issued in March. The match fills up in a couple of days. This match has not changed over the years from it's big close target format. Targets are larger than the SASS recommendations and target distances are very very close compared to SASS recommendations. This is not new or a new direction, however a lot of shooters like this kind of match. The individual that was there at the beginning of Bordertown is now the match director at EOT now and the last couple of years shooters loved that match, an improvement over some EOTs in NM. So maybe your opinion is the fringe minority of shooters.

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I shot at Defend Old Fort Parker last year in "Sharpshooter " shot the rifle targets with my pistols, and then a second set of rifle targets that were out about 2.5 times the distance of the regular rifle targets with my main match rifle. I really enjoyed shooting it, and will sign up for it wherever it's offered. I may not be able to "run and gun" like some, but I can "Amble and aim"! I hope to see more clubs offer this option for those of us that like to aim. It does take more targets, and more work for the MD, but it is a lot if fun.

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, April 30, 2015 - insulting
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, April 30, 2015 - insulting

Unfortunately with the younger generations coming along on that got a trophy even for losing and less trigger time than earlier generations, so they may not be as accurate this may be what we end up with.

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The sky has been falling since I started this game, I guess it's only cuz I'm so short that it hasn't hit me in the head yet.

 

Ain't met a target so big and so close that I can't still miss it.

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, April 30, 2015 - response to hidden post
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, April 30, 2015 - response to hidden post

Unfortunately with the younger generations coming along on that got a trophy even for losing and less trigger time than earlier generations, so they may not be as accurate this may be what we end up with.

You must Not know any of the younger generation that shoots SASS. I do and I take offense to your post.
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Hey Noz, I have not had a chance to shoot back your way, But I have shot quite a few different places in California, Arizona and a few in Texas and Louisiana. I have not seen a match as finely tuned for speed as the one you shot, they were invariably a decent mix of fast and thinking stages, which is as I like them. I have in my past kissed more than one girl, and liked the varirty. :P

Some prefer/advocate a fast/close match, good for them.

BUT, it was a well run match that got shooters through in a timely manner, well attended and organized and that says something for it too.

This from a shooter that lacks agility and shoot a style, powder and caliber that would not stand a chance at a big match. :) I have fun and I get to visit/make friends.It MAY be a future I would not like to see, but it's all good!

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I shot at Defend Old Fort Parker last year in "Sharpshooter " shot the rifle targets with my pistols, and then a second set of rifle targets that were out about 2.5 times the distance of the regular rifle targets with my main match rifle. I really enjoyed shooting it, and will sign up for it wherever it's offered. I may not be able to "run and gun" like some, but I can "Amble and aim"! I hope to see more clubs offer this option for those of us that like to aim. It does take more targets, and more work for the MD, but it is a lot if fun.

Well dang...I'm confused again.

 

Are you saying that you can play this game without aiming?

 

Phantom

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, April 30, 2015 - response to hidden post
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, April 30, 2015 - response to hidden post

You must Not know any of the younger generation that shoots SASS. I do and I take offense to your post.

Me too!

 

The younger generation that plays in our shooting world are for the most part great kids! Don't get me started about the flower-child generation.

 

Phantom

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, April 30, 2015 - response to hidden post
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, April 30, 2015 - response to hidden post

Unfortunately with the younger generations coming along on that got a trophy even for losing and less trigger time than earlier generations, so they may not be as accurate this may be what we end up with.

I doubt those are the reasons for the popularity of bigger and closer targets.

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When I build targets, I build what some would call "big" targets.

When I set targets for a match, some might say they are "close"

 

But I dont do it for the "fast" shooters. I do it for the young shooters and the middle to bottom of the pack shooters. A lot of shooters know they dont have the ability or agility to run with the younger faster shooters, so they are shooting for clean matches. I try to make it a lil easier on them. But like someone said, theres no target too big to miss.

 

A couple of days ago, there was a thread going about stages being too complicated.....now theres one about them being too simple. That is a perfect example of not being able to please everyone

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I would say pulling in over 300 shooters every year. Year after year.

 

That they was doing something right.

^^^^whut he sed....

 

Last weekend I shot 3 gun. One stage had 12" x 3" steel poppers from 35 out to 110 yds. You had to hit 12. For some it was a good thing that mag had 28 in it....and they had 2 mags.

 

Grown men were a bit demoralized after the next stage where you had 6 seconds to make 5 to 20 shots rifle, pistol, shotgun. Dang they needed a tablet to tally the misses.

 

I'm sure looking forward to my next SASS match. How many days to EOT?

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So the top shooters averaged 19 to 21 seconds per stage.

 

The average shooters averaged about 35 seconds per stage.

 

There were 46 clean shooters or 14 percent (I consider 10 percent to be a good goal, especially for a longer match.)

 

So with not having been there, the numbers look like a pretty good match. But numbers don't always tell all...

 

And as you note, how the match is run makes SOOO much difference - in addition to the actual stages.

 

So it may depend a lot on what people have been experiencing locally. Are their matches mostly smaller and further than the average? If so, the change to somewhat larger and closer targets can be intimidating.

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Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, April 30, 2015 - response to hidden post
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, April 30, 2015 - response to hidden post

Unfortunately with the younger generations coming along on that got a trophy even for losing and less trigger time than earlier generations, so they may not be as accurate this may be what we end up with.

I, being one of those "Younger generations", take offense to this... starting when i was 12 and have been doing it for almost 13 years, ive seen quite a bit. so you might want to watch what you say before you say it....

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I just turned 64. I joined SASS 10 years back when I was 54.

 

I had been a 'plinker' since 1971 and never been involved in any shooting sport/game until I joined SASS.

 

I've been to a few SIZABLE matches, but never WR or EOT.

 

Regardless of whether the targets were big/small or close/distant, I've never witness anything that would reflex the younger generation involved in SASS is at fault for anything that diminishes the fun in Cowboy competition. And if anything, the younger generation has enhanced this game/sport beyond most of our imaginations. Their abilities, energy and good character have added a flavor to this sport/game that overwhelms anything that a Saturday morning 'plinking' session with older men could ever accomplish.

 

If you take out the Ladies and youth of our sport/game, all you have left is a dozen or so men who enjoy shooting their older Colts and original Winchesters. The vendors would dry up within 60 days when they can no longer pay their rent.

 

The ONE positive that 'might' occur without the younger shooters, wives, girlfriends and children involved in SASS is that our gun stores would probably have more primers and pistol powders on the shelves...... ;)

 

Here is a list of popular sports, each with their own variety:

1. NASCAR: young, wet behind the ears, drivers who only go fast and turn left.

2. BOWLING: variety personified.....NOT.

3. GOLF: hit a little ball 3 times and roll it in a hole. REPEAT 17 more times before lunch.

4. TENNIS: the only variety involved is which player can throw the biggest tantrum and flip off the judges.

 

As individuals, we can lose our enthusiasm in certain aspects of our game. But does it really mean the future of SASS/CAS is in jeopardy because of these particular things. I don't think so.

 

oh well, nuff said.

 

..........Widder

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Lots of things come to mind as how to respond. Let's start with this. Keep in mind I'd relatively new compared to some out there.

 

1) SASS has "recommended" sizes and distances for targets. How that is followed varies with clubs.

2) I compete with myself mostly. I will compare my scores with others to see if I am gaining or losing, then figure out how to improve myself.

3) I've read about clubs that have the small distant targets. And the fact that attendance is low and/or dropping.

4) This is my second year for being on the Board of Directors for Bordertown, which is known for Close and Fast. Do I want every match I attend to be a Bordertown? No.

 

My better half and I have been shooting this game for 3 years and 5 years respectively. We enjoy a challenging match. Targets don't have to be super close or huge. Stages should be relatively easy to figure out/follow. We have been attending various annual shoots around the state including Bordertown. We have been enjoying this sport.

 

Our application is already sent in for Winter Range 2016. This will be a first for us. We've signed up for the warm up stages because I want to see the shape, size, and distance of the targets.

 

I guess with all my rambling my bottom line is that if there is something that you did not care for at a particular match, give them feedback! No changes will be considered if everyone involved thinks the match went off perfectly and was loved by one and all.

 

Edit - my original post did not include anything about the younger shooters. Their reflexes and eyes are better than mine. Some of them have "high profile" coaches that are teaching them the correct way to shoot and that translates to winning matches. I have nothing negative to say about the young shooters.

 

That's more than two cents worth,

Barry Sloe

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Sorry if I am still laughing about the younger generation comment. I guess tomorrow after work Im gonna go to the range and practice to get some more trigger time.... Apparently dont get enough... and throw away my participation trophies..

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When I build targets, I build what some would call "big" targets.

When I set targets for a match, some might say they are "close"

 

But I dont do it for the "fast" shooters. I do it for the young shooters and the middle to bottom of the pack shooters. A lot of shooters know they dont have the ability or agility to run with the younger faster shooters, so they are shooting for clean matches. I try to make it a lil easier on them. But like someone said, theres no target too big to miss.

 

A couple of days ago, there was a thread going about stages being too complicated.....now theres one about them being too simple. That is a perfect example of not being able to please everyone

+1000!

 

I am not a top shooter, and may never be, but that is okay. I just love dressing up like a cowboy for a weekend and shooting targets as fast as I am able to (even though some shooters could stop for a smoke and still beat me). But that is okay with me, as I try to compete against myself making whatever baby steps I can. I can still miss plenty of big and close targets when I try to outrun my abilities. But the "easier" targets keeps people coming back as they find their own level of success. And it opens up the sport to a wider range f shooters. Other shooting sports I have taken part in often do not have less experienced shooters return with the number of difficult and long shots, because they think they are not ready. Give shooters shorter distances with targets they can hit, and even if they shoot slow, they will feel like they can do it and come back. Granted, I am far from a good shooter, but that is the view from the other side of the fence. I am okay with where I am today, but if they were all long shots or difficult shots, where I was missing half the shots, I probably wold have given up by now and went back to the plinker range

 

No way to play this game is wrong, and there are a wide variety of match types. We just all need to find the type of match that makes us happy

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Noz, SASS has lots of age related categories. Two of the biggest categories at the last large match I attended were silver senior and elder statesman. SASS also has a lot of gun and costume related categories. When I go to a big match I don't think I am competing with the 15 year olds or the 20 something super fast shooters. I figure I am competing with those in my category. In fact I think I am competing mostly with myself. One thing I did like about that last large match I attended is they varied the number of category prize winners based on a percentage of the entries. In my category 28 people were entered and they awarded 8 prizes.

 

I would say that at the larger state matches it would be nice if the organizers awarded category overalls and the state resident awards separately especially in the more popular categories. Last year all three of the top shooters in my category were residents of other states. The first resident from our state in my category placed 4th or 5th. Of course he got the state buckle but he was the only one recognized from our state in my category. That isn't a very big gripe because the shoot was so much fun.

 

As to big v. small, far v. close, I have never found a target too big or near to miss, nor have I ever found one too small or far (within reason) I couldn't hit. All in all, however, I prefer big and close to small and far.

 

The good thing about those large shoots is they allow you to measure yourself against a larger group of people some of whom you only rarely get to shoot against.

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Well I glad it was a great match I see your concern. Before my accident in 2012 I was able to think if I choose my category wisely and shot clean at a great pace I felt I was able to finish in the top ten of my category. I never happened at a large match but that was my fault. After the accident I hope to go have fun try for a clean match and meet new friends and enjoy the comrade. That's my new goal have fun, shoot clean, and enjoy to ones I'm with.

 

For me that is worth more than a trophy or buckle. We all need to realize our abilities and live with in those abilities.

 

So you need to reassess our reasons for attending these events.and use that as the measure of your event did you do everything you set out to? If so great if not was it something you did or did not do? Then the match was still great. Do you need to re look at your self or your goals for these events?

 

Once I set attainable goals I started having much more fun

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Noz.

 

Come North and Shoot with Us .... Something for all shooters ...

 

Lot's of fun both big and reasonability close and smaller and futher...

 

Good food and Good Company...

 

And some that shoot guns one handed with full loads...

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

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I am the father of two of those younger shooters. We shoot with many great shooters whether young or old. What makes the difference is dedication to the competition. All the hours spent on the road, around the reloading equipment, time with their coach etc…. Those who shoot better, practice harder. I hear many excuses why the youth are shooting so well. It maybe they are just dedicated to being the best. This year we had many juniors and young cowboys in the top 16. But we also had many others who embrace the competition. You do not hear negative comments from them. They appreciate great shooting and the spirit everyone brings.

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If you would go back to post #1 and see,I advocated no changes. I did not jump younger shooters and I did not say I did not enjoy the match. I simply stated that SASS seems to be going strongly toward match set ups that I personally do not particularly like.

 

And, Prestidigitator has been one of my heros for a lot of years.

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