Southpaw Gringo, SASS # 74217 Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I got a question to ask. I was able to score an 8lb jug of Promo powder for loading my CAS shotgun ammo. I used Clays in the past but I'm unable to replace my powder stock of that right now. My question is after loading a box of test rounds and shooting them in my Stoeger SxS and my 97, I was getting lots of plastic wad fouling mostly in the forcing cones in the barrels. It was enough that after 12 rounds in each gun, I needed a bronze brush and solvent to get the melted plastic out! I have "never" got this much plastic fouling before using Clays powder or factory ammo in the same shotguns. My Stoeger barrels have just polished chambers and the 97s forcing cone has been lenghtend and polished. Is anybody else getting this plastic fouling using Promo? I'm stumped! Why only this powder? Is it burning hotter to melt the wad? FYI. I'm using Clasbuster WAA12L gray wads with 7/8oz of shot in a STS and Gunclub hulls. The powder charge is on the low scale side. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G W Wade Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 funny I thought the opposite! the difference is I went from a low noise/record load with clays to a promo load with 3/4 oz in hot pink claybuster that is advertised at almost 1200fps. felt recoil is light but hits knockdowns like a train . light clays load was dirty like you say in my Baikal but new faster load with promo looks cleaner. back to you southpaw GW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I can tell you that I'm not seeing that type of fouling in either of my 97's or the Stoeger coach gun my daughter shoots and ALL we shoot are reloads using promo. Neither of the 97's have had their forcing cones lengthened. We duplicate the featherlight AA's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 For those that have or will answer, what wad are you using. That may be the difference. Evidently, the temperature is hot enough to melt the plastic differently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bull Skinner Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I have used both the gray CB0178-12, the replacement for WAA12L and the CB1100-12 which replaces the WA12SL and a 1 ounce load with no plastic melt. I have been using these 2 combos for a couple years and have never got any plastic snot. I use the 2 hulls you mention plus AAs and the gold and gray STS hulls with no problem. My load of Promo is a light one also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I am shooting a load very similar to what you describe. A Clay Busters gray wad 7/8 oz of shot and lighter powder charge of Promo in Remington hulls. I have been using this load for several years and have never had the problem you describe. As a matter of fact one pass with a dry bore snake is all that is needed to clean the shot gun after a match or two. You say you loaded a box of test shells and fired them in two different guns. I am going to hazard a guess and ask if you fired the rounds in quick succession or in match conditions as in four or six shells and then let the gun cool for several minutes before shooting again. Firing several shells quickly could heat the barrels enough to melt the wads. I am not trying to flame you, I am just looking for an answer. One other possibility. Are the wads more than four or five years old? Clay Busters may have changed the formula for more recent production. Again just brain storming here. In my case more of a thunder shower. Hope this helps, Smoke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I'd like to see the powder or components company develop and publish recipes for subsonic 3/4 and 7/8 oz loads. Seems like they only have loads developed to cycle automatic shotguns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 A couple of things. Having loaded Promo for over 15 years for cas shooters, I have never seen plastic build up on customer guns. Have you retrieved a wad that you have shot? Do the sides of the wad peddles show signs of shot circle wear or small holes? If so, your velocity may be a little fast. The side wear is from acceleration forcing the shot back in the wad cup and then friction on the barrel as it travels through. Even using black powder the base of the wad usually does not melt when fired. If you used Clays and liked your load, then you should be able to use the same charge bar setting or bushing for Promo. I looked at the Promo 12ga loading chart on Alliant web page. No data is for less than 1100'/sec. The Winchester "Feather Lights"l are 980'/sec. My commercial load was set at 975'/sec +- using Promo. MEC bushing 25 works well with your Grey wad and 7/8oz. Note: the WW AA12FL8 "Feather Lights" are 980'/sec with 26grams of shot. 26grams = .917 oz.. Closer to 1oz than 3/4oz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I have used both the gray CB0178-12, the replacement for WAA12L and the CB1100-12 which replaces the WA12SL and a 1 ounce load with no plastic melt. I have been using these 2 combos for a couple years and have never got any plastic snot. I use the 2 hulls you mention plus AAs and the gold and gray STS hulls with no problem. My load of Promo is a light one also. Exactly my experience. lots of grey wads on the ground after matches. They're pretty popular (CB0178-12) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 28, 2015 Share Posted April 28, 2015 I'd like to see the powder or components company develop and publish recipes for subsonic 3/4 and 7/8 oz loads. Seems like they only have loads developed to cycle automatic shotguns. Wonder why? Would it be - most folks anymore buy semi autos? Yes, the loading manual companies are way behind in working up a very useful category of load = the low recoil, low noise load. See the loading data from ClayBuster company's web site on their new 3/4 ounce 12 gauge wad (CB0175-12). There's some progress into loading light load recipes! That data even includes Red Dot recipes. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Gringo, SASS # 74217 Posted April 29, 2015 Author Share Posted April 29, 2015 funny I thought the opposite! the difference is I went from a low noise/record load with clays to a promo load with 3/4 oz in hot pink claybuster that is advertised at almost 1200fps. felt recoil is light but hits knockdowns like a train . light clays load was dirty like you say in my Baikal but new faster load with promo looks cleaner. back to you southpaw GW Yes complete opposite results. I was using Ol Curly Coles recipe for a light C.A.S load with Clays powder. The Clays load was burning so clean, I rarely had to clean my bores. No plastic fouling at all and I rarely had a speck of unburnt powder left in the bore or action. Promo loads were dirty with lots of unburnt powder but it dont bother me. Only the plastic fouling is my concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Gringo, SASS # 74217 Posted April 29, 2015 Author Share Posted April 29, 2015 I am shooting a load very similar to what you describe. A Clay Busters gray wad 7/8 oz of shot and lighter powder charge of Promo in Remington hulls. I have been using this load for several years and have never had the problem you describe. As a matter of fact one pass with a dry bore snake is all that is needed to clean the shot gun after a match or two. You say you loaded a box of test shells and fired them in two different guns. I am going to hazard a guess and ask if you fired the rounds in quick succession or in match conditions as in four or six shells and then let the gun cool for several minutes before shooting again. Firing several shells quickly could heat the barrels enough to melt the wads. I am not trying to flame you, I am just looking for an answer. One other possibility. Are the wads more than four or five years old? Clay Busters may have changed the formula for more recent production. Again just brain storming here. In my case more of a thunder shower. Hope this helps, Smoke Yes I was firing fast all in a short amount of time. Wanted to get some practice in as well try the new loads out. The wads Im guessing are no more that two years old. Thanks for the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Gringo, SASS # 74217 Posted April 29, 2015 Author Share Posted April 29, 2015 A couple of things. Having loaded Promo for over 15 years for cas shooters, I have never seen plastic build up on customer guns. Have you retrieved a wad that you have shot? Do the sides of the wad peddles show signs of shot circle wear or small holes? If so, your velocity may be a little fast. The side wear is from acceleration forcing the shot back in the wad cup and then friction on the barrel as it travels through. Even using black powder the base of the wad usually does not melt when fired. If you used Clays and liked your load, then you should be able to use the same charge bar setting or bushing for Promo. I looked at the Promo 12ga loading chart on Alliant web page. No data is for less than 1100'/sec. The Winchester "Feather Lights"l are 980'/sec. My commercial load was set at 975'/sec +- using Promo. MEC bushing 25 works well with your Grey wad and 7/8oz. Note: the WW AA12FL8 "Feather Lights" are 980'/sec with 26grams of shot. 26grams = .917 oz.. Closer to 1oz than 3/4oz. I didnt even think about retrieving a fired wad to see what it looked like. I couldnt do it at the time because range was still hot. I will try it at another shoot. As far as the Clays load that I liked so well, I was using Mec bushing 29. The bushing I used with the Promo was 27. Im not going to mention the weight I got with the 27 to follow the rules but it was the lightest listed on Alliants website. I do have smaller ones I can try though. Thanks for the tips.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackaroo, # 29989 Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I use the grey 7/8 oz wads,never had a problem with Promo and have been using only a short time, found it to be a better softer load, but still takes any target down. No plastic melt at all,...what wads are you using.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I use the grey 7/8 oz wads,never had a problem with Promo and have been using only a short time, found it to be a better softer load, but still takes any target down. No plastic melt at all,...what wads are you using.? I'm curious too. I'm wondering if you're having wad/shell fitment issues. sounds like pressures are building above what the wad is rated for. Jackaroo, did you snap up that last bag of grey 7/8oz wads at the Edmond I-35 Wal-Mart? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Gringo, SASS # 74217 Posted April 29, 2015 Author Share Posted April 29, 2015 If anybody can PM me on there Promo powder weight there using with 7/8oz shot and gray WAA12L wads it would be greatly appreciated. I may be thinking my loads are still on the hot side even when using the bottom of the powder data. Thank You.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Two Dot, 14911 Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 If you are getting a lot of unburnt powder your load is a bit too light. That will also cause the plastic melt due to an inefficient burn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I may be thinking my loads are still on the hot side even when using the bottom of the powder data. Well, that would be thinking wrong headedly. The bottom of published shotshell loading data range is usually about 7000 PSI. That is low pressure. As Two Dot said, your load is probably a little light and the forcing cones are probably still rough and could use a nice polish job. Check with a good shotgun smith. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Gringo, SASS # 74217 Posted April 29, 2015 Author Share Posted April 29, 2015 Well, that would be thinking wrong headedly. The bottom of published shotshell loading data range is usually about 7000 PSI. That is low pressure. As Two Dot said, your load is probably a little light and the forcing cones are probably still rough and could use a nice polish job. Check with a good shotgun smith. Good luck, GJ According to the Alliant powder load data Im using, The load I picked is at 8000psi using a Rem209P primer. Looking at the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Handbook, the chart that has primer power chart lists CCI209 primers as the coolest and Federal209A primers as the hottest, Rem209P primers are on the cool side being second on the list. Im using Federal primers. The hottest non mag primer out there. Federal primers are adding about 2000psi to the load. Im assuming my loads are pushing the 10000psi range. Shouldn't that be enough pressure to get a clean burn? The forcing cones in my Stoeger are a little rough being stock but my forcing cone in the 97 was professionally lenghtend and polished well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Well, when you sub a Fed209A primer for a Rem209 primer,yeah, you are no longer at the bottom of the loading data that was in the book. You KNOW there can be problems using that Fed 209A primer in a load not worked up for the Fed 209A. Tell us the whole story next time, please, it makes trying to provide some help a whole lot easier. I've used Red Dot all my life,and Promo a little, No more plastic buildup in factory cut forcing cones than other powders leave. It's my TTN with rough forcing cones that builds up enough plastic to need to be scrubbed good after 100 rounds. Claybuster wads do seem to leave more plastic in the cones, barrels and chokes than other Name Brand wads. You might try the Win wad for a bag or two to see if they are worth it for you. I can scrub a barrel or two cheaper than I can pay extra for the wads. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southpaw Gringo, SASS # 74217 Posted April 29, 2015 Author Share Posted April 29, 2015 Woops! Your right GJ. Sorry for leaving that primer info out. I do have some CCI209 primers that are on the bottom of the power scale right below Rem209 primers. I'm going to try a few more powder combinations to see what will work best. Thanks for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramble Mountain Buzzard Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 I use the Claybuster Lightning wad in mine. Everything else the same... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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