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Captain Bill Burt

What's the call.

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So no matter what occurred between the stage and the ULT (no matter the circumstances) the shooter is still responsible for their actions. So from what PWB and Allie posted, it's a SDQ as soon as the shooter lets go of the guns.

 

The problem with "the gray areas" is that a call may be made on one posse and it gets protested, then overruled (such as the SDQ on the s thread). Yet the same thing could happen to another shooter on another posse and a SDQ is called, not protested, then not overruled. Then one shooters is penalized and the other not.

 

It's just a matter of trying to be consistent with the calls.

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All I'm saying is a decision needs to be made at what point your going to penalize the shooter and then make it a written rule, show me where it says in a rule book about letting go of long guns at cart and I will penalize shooter otherwise I will direct them to Unloading table so they can unload their guns.

 

From the rule book basically if you reach next stage with empties you earn a SDQ for previous stage but if its the first stage of a match or first stage of the next day its a NO Call., these folks more than likely did not get checked from last stage they shot at end of previous day, so they are walking around all morning or whole time before they get to their first stage with guns not checked and yet its a No Call when they arrive at Loading table, explain that and somebody simply sets their long guns in a cart and thats the point of no return to call a SDQ It does not make sense to me, too me if someone sees shooter not going to unloading table they need to redirect them because their mind is elsewhere as long as they dont sweep anybody in the process I dont see the problem, if nobody notices shooter not going to unloading table , than they will make it to next stage and empties will be found in revolvers and they will get dinged at this point, unless the shooter is purposely ignoring unloading procedures I dont see the point of giving them SDQ,

 

From RO1

 

35. Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage.

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For once, I am on the front end of the curve on this topic. Knew (for a long time) that once hands left unchecked long guns at cart would get you a SDQ.

 

Now, I've seen pard's absent mindedly head toward their carts, but there has 'always' been a posse member intercept them and shooooe them to the ULT before the guns left their hand. thus, no foul.

 

I have never seen a penalty given because the situation was/has been corrected before it went into violation mode.

 

Makes me wonder what the heck the other absent minded posse members were doing when the shooter was heading to the ULT?

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There is no set distance/time within which the penalty applies due to differences in range/stage setups.

Most T/Os will assess the penalty (SDQ) if the shooter relinquishes control of any firearm at the guncart, or if he/she blatantly ignores direction to go to the ULT.

 

FWIW - One of the T/O's responsibilities at the end of the stage is to see that the shooter is headed to the ULT once all firearms have been retrieved from the stage.

Failure on the part of the T/O to do so does NOT relieve the shooter of his/her own responsibility to "adhere to loading/unloading procedures".

 

RO1 p.7

 

 

Where in this post does PWB say that when shooter lets go of long guns its a SDQ he simply points out some ,TO/ RO's call it at that point.

 

He doesnt say its right or wrong, he did not say in Captain Bill Burt's case the MD made the wrong call.

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Where in this post does PWB say that when shooter lets go of long guns its a SDQ he simply points out some ,TO/ RO's call it at that point.

 

He doesnt say its right or wrong, he did not say in Captain Bill Burt's case the MD made the wrong call.

Same place as how far from the LT one can go before it is called. there ain't an answer but you will know when you exceed the distance when you receive the penalty. All depends on the TO and his mood at the time.

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My opinion, this can become a subjective call.

 

If it was for a very brief moment and then shooter realized the mistake and quickly got his guns and headed to the ULT.... probably a no call.

 

If guncart was right next to the ULT and shooter momentary placed his Longguns at the cart and quickly corrected his mistake... No call.

 

But if a specific Time Lag was involved and the shooter was walking around with empties in his pistols, etc..... PENALTY would be earned.

 

 

..........Widder

 

Howdy Blastmaster.

 

Thats pretty much what I stated in Post #3.

 

 

..........Widder

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AO , I agree with you there should be a definitive point where the penalty is applied . But until then as a match director are you going to let it ride until the shooter gets to the next loading table ? I also feel a specific distance would be helpful to apply a penalty for leaving the loading table with loaded pistols . As a match director where is that point with you . Both of these rules have the same problem . There is no right or wrong answer since it isn't in the books but I still think they need to be applied . I would just like your opinion .

 

Thanks

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In light of this topic (and others) the better you get at this game (a threat to others), the less BOD you get.

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In light of this topic (and others) the better you get at this game (a threat to others), the less BOD you get.

I've never seen it that way . What I've seen is the better shooters know the rules better than most and are the first to call something on themselves . And nobody worth knowing wants to win because of a bad call on a competitor .

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AO , I agree with you there should be a definitive point where the penalty is applied . But until then as a match director are you going to let it ride until the shooter gets to the next loading table ? I also feel a specific distance would be helpful to apply a penalty for leaving the loading table with loaded pistols . As a match director where is that point with you . Both of these rules have the same problem . There is no right or wrong answer since it isn't in the books but I still think they need to be applied . I would just like your opinion .

 

Thanks

The host club 'could' set their own definition (and post or announce) of how far one can wander from the LT with loaded guns. But they don't.

 

Perhaps same thought with varying travel to the ULT.

 

Seems to be a shining example of a hard ass call for either situation when there is no harm committed for a ever so little momentary lapse of memory. Of course we can not take into account the 'intent' of the whole situation... being safe.

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I've never seen it that way . What I've seen is the better shooters know the rules better than most and are the first to call something on themselves . And nobody worth knowing wants to win because of a bad call on a competitor .

There are all kinds out there.

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Safety rules are in place to teach behavior . If we were to award a penalty only when there was harm then that is too late . Both rules are in the book and I see no reason why the MD couldn't apply them when they felt they were earned . These may be some things that need to be covered in the safety meeting . As I and others have pointed out the main thing is that all the shooters at the match get the same call .

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At this point all shooters are not treated equally when unloading table missed and shooter starts to place or does place his fired guns in his cart. Some shooters get a no call if they go back to the table. Others get a SDQ when noticed. Others get the penalty when they show up at next stage loading table. A couple word change in the rules could help.

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At this point all shooters are not treated equally when unloading table missed and shooter starts to place or does place his fired guns in his cart. Some shooters get a no call if they go back to the table. Others get a SDQ when noticed. Others get the penalty when they show up at next stage loading table.

A couple word change in the rules could help.

 

How about sharing which couple words & where that would make the rule universally applicable and acceptable in all situations on every range?

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All I'm saying is a decision needs to be made at what point your going to penalize the shooter and then make it a written rule, show me where it says in a rule book about letting go of long guns at cart and I will penalize shooter otherwise I will direct them to Unloading table so they can unload their guns.

 

From the rule book basically if you reach next stage with empties you earn a SDQ for previous stage but if its the first stage of a match or first stage of the next day its a NO Call., these folks more than likely did not get checked from last stage they shot at end of previous day, so they are walking around all morning or whole time before they get to their first stage with guns not checked and yet its a No Call when they arrive at Loading table, explain that and somebody simply sets their long guns in a cart and thats the point of no return to call a SDQ It does not make sense to me, too me if someone sees shooter not going to unloading table they need to redirect them because their mind is elsewhere as long as they dont sweep anybody in the process I dont see the problem, if nobody notices shooter not going to unloading table , than they will make it to next stage and empties will be found in revolvers and they will get dinged at this point, unless the shooter is purposely ignoring unloading procedures I dont see the point of giving them SDQ,

 

From RO1

 

35. Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage.

 

 

I'm reposting this because I feel that its odd that your first stage of the day you can come to loading table with empties, again meaning you werent checked after last stage previous day,

 

Most Wanted, I feel like if someone see's shooter heading to their cart or even if they get to their cart they should just advise them to go to unloading table and follow unloading procedure if they dont for whatever reason than they earn SDQ ,

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How about sharing which couple words & where that would make the rule universally applicable and acceptable in all situations on every range?

I'm not GCK, but I dont see why penalize the shooter at all unless they just arent following the rules just tell them to go to the unloading table. apparently their mind is not straight yet and they need some direction., if they make to next stage they get SDQ which to me is the way the book reads anyway or if they refuse to go to unloading table SDQ

 

or make it official if shooter makes it to gun cart and lets go of long guns you earned SDQ,

 

Why can you come to 1st stage of day with empties in gun ? I dont care for this, seems contradictary

 

AO

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I'm reposting this because I feel that its odd that your first stage of the day you can come to loading table with empties, again meaning you werent checked after last stage previous day,

 

Most Wanted, I feel like if someone see's shooter heading to their cart or even if they get to their cart they should just advise them to go to unloading table and follow unloading procedure if they dont for whatever reason than they earn SDQ ,

How about.....

The shooter was practicing before the shoot and forgot to unload his pistols. There was no unloading table, there was no TO, there was no friendly posse member to remind them.

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So, how frequent do you see people short circuit the ULT and go directly to their gun cart with their guns, place unchecked long guns in cart and remove their hands from guns? I haven't seen it go that far w/o someone redirecting them to the ULT. Trying to fix something that really isn't broken?

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So, how frequent do you see people short circuit the ULT and go directly to their gun cart with their guns, place unchecked long guns in cart and remove their hands from guns? I haven't seen it go that far w/o someone redirecting them to the ULT. Trying to fix something that really isn't broken?

About as often as I see someone drop a gun. Clearing guns after a course of fire is not exclusive to SASS. Other sports that I have shot we cleared our guns on the line. I believe SASS has an unloading table to speed things along. I don't think skipping this step is the answer.

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I don't believe I've ever seen anyone fully short-circuit the unloading table. I have seen dropped guns. The latest was two weeks ago

 

We still need to check the guns to be sure they are clear.

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I have two words for y'all "Range Rules"

 

One club has defined the Loading Area

 

One club you can not lever your rifle pointed over the berm...............to this day they have not disclosed the penalty for this

 

If the current suggested guideline, taking hands off long guns at the gun cart, for applying a SDQ is not to your clubs liking establish what make since to y'all.

 

Just don't forget to announce the rule at each morning safety briefing

 

 

I don't care how many rules are created they will never be enforce fairly form posse to posse. Most RO's, even Instructors, don't attempt to keep up with the rules. At best the end result is we are all shooting a similar course of fire

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About as often as I see someone drop a gun. Clearing guns after a course of fire is not exclusive to SASS. Other sports that I have shot we cleared our guns on the line. I believe SASS has an unloading table to speed things along. I don't think skipping this step is the answer.

 

 

We have 4 guns to clear 2 that our single action revolvers to clear so a unloading table is a great idea, I never mentioned skipping a step, just not be a hard a$$ if you see a shooter accidentally goes to their cart , advise shooter " hey go to unloading table " no harm no foul,

 

Although everything is ultimately shooter responsibility , it's a failure on the posse's part not to direct shooter to table to begin with starting with RO

 

If your going to give a shooter a penalty , it should be in rule book so you can have consistent matches, that's the main reason for clubs to be Sass affiliated.

 

I find it odd at a two day match you can show up with empties in revolvers at loading table and it's not a penalty , so either shooter did not get cleared on last stage of previous day or during some sort side match activity , the reason I keep mentioning this is SASS is being pretty darn lenient here and yet some folks think because someone let go of long guns at cart they deserve a sdq at this point , why be a hard a$$

 

That's all I have to say on it , put it in rule book so it's consistent or give folks a break that they did not purposely bypass unloading table and send them to unloading table so they can get checked.,I'm for the latter.

 

AO

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AO , my response was to Blastmadter thus me quoting what he said. You are a match director and as I and others have stated you can make the call how you see fit. I have NO problem with that. I was just asking when you would award it. I also asked a question about the gray area in the loading table rule but you chose not to address that and I'm ok with that. I had a post farther back that stated these things should be covered in the safety meeting to make sure everyone is on the same page. If someone doesn't feel the need to take one of these two rulings to you then they may get short changed.

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AO , my response was to Blastmadter thus me quoting what he said. You are a match director and as I and others have stated you can make the call how you see fit. I have NO problem with that. I was just asking when you would award it. I also asked a question about the gray area in the loading table rule but you chose not to address that and I'm ok with that. I had a post farther back that stated these things should be covered in the safety meeting to make sure everyone is on the same page. If someone doesn't feel the need to take one of these two rulings to you then they may get short changed.

 

I would award SDQ if shooter chose to ignore direction to immediately head to unloading table, no fudging around head to table, see all this conversation on my part is dependent on someone actually seeing / watching shooter head to their cart , now of course if nobody sees shooter do this more than likely they will make it to next stage where they will get SDQ which I've called on myself, or if its the last stage of a two day they will get a no call for 1st stage of next day.

 

My feeling is SASS is lenient with folks walking around with empties in revolvers before a match begins why should folks be hard a$$es and give a SDQ when they need to give a shooter a heads up and actually make RO / posse aware that they need to keep a eye on shooters leaving line.

 

The loading table is another subject that I dont want to change thread now that I have everyone convinced I'm right :lol:

 

Hope to see ya soon AO / Steve

 

PS I'm done with this one

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As soon as I saw PWB's post #6 I though to myself.....................How will this ever make it to page 2? :lol:

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So, this is how I see it. It's an interesting question that is not easily answered. So, being fresh out of the RO class, what does my trusty RO1 handbook say? Palewolf, please correct me if I'm wrong. I am very interested in fully understanding how the rules work.

 

RO1 P11, par 4.

“Muzzle up” Please move to the Unloading Table” should be stated at the end of a shooting sequence. Often the competitor stops thinking—after all, his shooting problem is finished! He simply needs a gentle reminder of what to do next.

 

The rules state what the shooter must do after their shooting strings are complete. He needs a gentle reminder of what to do next. the word "next" defines what ORDER the shooter must do things. The rule doesn't state "wander aimlessly" or "jabberjaw with your buddies" or "head to your cart" - it says the shooters next stop is the unloading table. Now, This does NOT make it the responsibility of the TO to ensure the shooter makes it to the Unloading Table. In fact in several places in the RO1 book, the TO's actions are designated by making sure the shooter is "headed" to the unloading table. In fact, the TO can never be blamed for the shooters failure to adhere to rules. Shooters EARN penalties. they are not given.

RO1 P7 Par. J

Once the stage begins, the Timer Operator stays within arm’s length of the competitor until the stage is finished. The Timer Operator then immediately announces the stage time to the shooter. Any firearms with unfired rounds remaining should be cleared while still on the stage, if possible. Only after revolvers are holstered and long guns are retrieved by the shooter with actions opened, muzzles pointed in a safe direction, and the shooter is heading towards the unloading table does the Timer Operator, declare “Range is clear” and conveys the time to the Score Keeper in a loud, clear voice.

 

Seems like this section has been quoted, but this is direction for the TO, not a rule. This paragraph directs the TO to meet the requirements stated (unfired rounds cleared, revolvers holstered, long guns retrieved and shooter heading towards ULT), before the TO can call the time to the Score Keeper. The rule is implied on P11 par. 4. as shown above. However, the is no direction for the assessment for penalties in either spot. There is only ONE place in the RO1 handbook that speaks of penalties durectly related to the Unloading Table itself and it's an infraction for LEAVING the table without properly cleared firearms. But the catch is you have to be AT the table to leave it!

RO1 P14, App A, Par 3

Leaving the unloading table without clearing all firearms is failure to adhere to unloading procedures and will result in the penalty being assessed on the stage where the infraction was committed

 

 

If the shooter never makes it to the table, they cannot leave the table - and therefore cannot earn a penalty. So how does he get a penalty by going to the cart?

 

The answer lies in the definition of "Move to. . . " as defined on P11, par. 4.

 

The TO must clear the lane to read the time. in RO1 P11, par 4. the TO is to direct the shooter to the Unloading Table, in very clear words. "Muzzle Up! Please move to the Unloading Table." The term Move TO implies that that shooter must arrive at the unloading table as his very next stop. This becomes the unloading procedure: leave the line, arrive at the unloading table as your next point. not "move towards the unloading table" or "eventually get to the unloading table" - but move to implies this is your next stop. By not going directly to the ULT, the shooter earns an SDQ for not following the procedure.

 

This begs the question: what if the TO does NOT say ""Muzzle Up! Please move to the Unloading Table." -

RO1 P9-10, subsection: REMEMBER:

Remember: The primary responsibility always rests with the competitor. Shooters should always know the condition of their firearms and should never depend upon the Loading and Unloading Officers to ensure their firearms are correctly loaded and unloaded. The Loading and Unloading Officers are simply an added measure of safety. A competitor may never blame the Loading Officer for an incorrectly loaded firearm, and at no time will this claim be considered grounds for dismissal of penalties

It is the shooters responsibility to following the unloading procedure. Even if the TO doesn't speak the command. The unloading procedure starts at the end of the string or the direction of the TO. Remember, the TO is in charge of the firing line, and THAT is defined as from the moment you place a firearm on the loading table to the moment the ULT officer okays you to leave.

 

So, the answer is if the shooter doesn't go directly to the unloading table, he is failing to follow the firing line procedure thus earning a penalty.

 

In reality, we all brain-fart on occasion. We should all do everything in our power to help a shooter avoid earning penalties. If I see a shooter moving to their cart instead of the ULT, They would get a tap on the shoulder - SDQ avoided!

 

Showing up with empties in your firearm on the first stage of the next day - there is no call. Penalties are assessed on the stage in which the penalty was earned. Previous days match is over. you cannot retro-actively assess penalties like that. The penalty would be leaving the ULT without properly clearing the firearm. Not arriving at the LT with empties in your firearm - there is no rule that expressly speaks about that condition that I could find this is the closest:

SASS Handbook V20.2 P26 Par. 35

 

Competitors arriving at the designated loading area with uncleared firearms after completing a stage within the same day will be assessed a Stage Disqualification penalty on the previously completed stage.

 

 

 

It would be no different that arriving at the loading table with a snap cap in your firearm. Arriving with LIVE ROUNDS in the firearm is a different story altogether.

 

 

This is how I see it. Sorry for the long reply.

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...nothing to see here....everything is over....move along.

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...nothing to see here....everything is over....move along.

Should have been "or the discretion. . ." not "and the discretion . . ."

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Another whats the call where the responders deviate from the real actions of the shooter and throw in a bunch of how comes, why don't we, and what was his intent. For me the shooter didn't get caught by anyone as he headed towards his cart, he place his long guns in the cart and let go of them The act of letting go control of his firearms earned the SDQ. No different than letting go of a long gun and then realizing it isn't clear or you didn't fire 10. Or, Or ,Or. Once he did what he did he was done. Whether they discovered then or at the next stage.

Hurricane, if the TO had to mind every shooter of all of the stage protocols that are in place we'd be running 5 minute shooting strings. Does the shooter understand the course of fire, did the shooter load the correct amount of ammo in each gun, did.....

 

All of the things you said the TO is required to do are really things the TO is recommended he do.

 

This is like the discussion on leaving the loading table with your loaded pistols in your holster. No distance established in the rules to earn the SDQ but like someone said you no it when you see it. And lets not bring intent, range rules or negative karma into this one.

 

We are all big boys and the shooters should know the protocols brain fart or not.

 

Ike

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