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Captain Bill Burt

What's the call.

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Shooter shoots the stage clean, picks up his long guns and walks over to his guncart and puts them in it

 

What's the call?

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My opinion, this can become a subjective call.

 

If it was for a very brief moment and then shooter realized the mistake and quickly got his guns and headed to the ULT.... probably a no call.

 

If guncart was right next to the ULT and shooter momentary placed his Longguns at the cart and quickly corrected his mistake... No call.

 

But if a specific Time Lag was involved and the shooter was walking around with empties in his pistols, etc..... PENALTY would be earned.

 

 

..........Widder

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I have made this call on myself at an annual match. I'm hoping it is one of those things you only forget once.

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I believe the line in the sand is, once long gun/s have been put in the gun cart he has earned the SDQ..

 

 

edited to show my dislike of a rule with no set guideline and wholey subjective....

 

to me, it will be if the shooter reaches the next loading table until it is clarified.

 

and my apologies to the shooter at the Ides that I DQed on the last stage for not going to the unloading table.

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There is no set distance/time within which the penalty applies due to differences in range/stage setups.

Most T/Os will assess the penalty (SDQ) if the shooter relinquishes control of any firearm at the guncart, or if he/she blatantly ignores direction to go to the ULT.

 

FWIW - One of the T/O's responsibilities at the end of the stage is to see that the shooter is headed to the ULT once all firearms have been retrieved from the stage.

Failure on the part of the T/O to do so does NOT relieve the shooter of his/her own responsibility to "adhere to loading/unloading procedures".

 

J) Once the stage begins, the Timer Operator stays within arm’s length of the competitor until the stage is finished. The Timer Operator then immediately announces the stage time to the shooter. Any firearms with unfired rounds remaining should be cleared while still on the stage, if possible. Only after revolvers are holstered and long guns are retrieved by the shooter with actions opened, muzzles pointed in a safe direction, and the shooter is heading towards the unloading table does the Timer Operator, declare “Range is Clear” and conveys the time to the Score Keeper in a loud, clear voice.

 

RO1 p.7

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Thanks for helping me grasp that more correctly PWB.

 

 

..........Widder

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I don't care for this , I wish there was a rule in rule book that says penalty happens at this point, whatever it might be ,like letting go of long guns, too me if you watch shooter let go of guns at cart why didn't they just advise shooter to go to unloading table.

 

AO

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Like many other penalties in this game, it's not a penalty until you take your hand off the gun/start another shooting string.

The placing of the guns in the cart starts another shooting string(for argument sake) without completing the required preceding step, going to the ULT.

That's what gets you the penalty and when it occurs.

Also, based on the hands on thought, if the shooter set a long gun in the cart and realized he didn't go to the ULT, and his hand was still on the gun, he could argue he hadn't released control therefore no penalty. I'd still give him a fair amount of ribbing for a couple of more stages though :D

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I don't care for this , I wish there was a rule in rule book that says penalty happens at this point, whatever it might be ,like letting go of long guns, too me if you watch shooter let go of guns at cart why didn't they just advise shooter to go to unloading table.

AO

That's what we just learned in the LCP office this weekend.

RO is there to politely assist shooters not to assess penalties.

If I see someone wandering aimlessly, they will get my help before I have to assess the penalty.

 

Thanks, AO for opening up the LCP office for the training.

Thanks, Deadly Sharpshooter for giving up your weekend.

 

Waimea (newly minted RO2)

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I don't care for this , I wish there was a rule in rule book that says penalty happens at this point, whatever it might be ,like letting go of long guns, too me if you watch shooter let go of guns at cart why didn't they just advise shooter to go to unloading table.

AO

In the situation I mentioned the TO tried to alert the shooter, but the shooter couldn't hear him. The shooter got to his cart before the TO could catch up and stop him.

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Aside, I have almost done that at least twice. :blink: Both times, my cart was on my way to the ULT. :blush: Moral of that story is never park your cart where it is on your way to the ULT. :unsure:

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In the situation I mentioned the TO tried to alert the shooter, but the shooter couldn't hear him. The shooter got to his cart before the TO could catch up and stop him.

Then that's the way it should be. :)

I was picturing (wrongly an cynically) the TO watching this poor soul wandering aimlessly until he finally arrives at his cart. Then the TO pounces and proclaims the penalty.

Hope to never SEE this. Heard of it though. :(

 

W

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Nope, everyone involved in this one is a cowboy to ride the river with. The cowboy who made the mistake, the TO who called him on it, the PM who upheld the call (OK maybe not him since he is me) AND the MD who overruled the call. All great people, all trying to do what's right, and as is often the case, all prone to the occasional well intended error.

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Why was it overruled. I just don't get that.

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Why was it overruled. I just don't get that.

It was an honest mistake. He felt that the shooter had until he reached the loading table of the next stage to rectify the error.

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ok

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In the situation I mentioned the TO tried to alert the shooter, but the shooter couldn't hear him. The shooter got to his cart before the TO could catch up and stop him.

 

So shooter makes it to gun cart folks are tryin to tell him to go to unloadfing table but he cant hear, I would go over to him and advise shooter to go to unloading table, its not like he was walking around with unchecked guns someone had a eye on him the whole time,

 

show me in rule book where it says when you let go of long guns at cart, thats when penalty is earned

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"Loading table area". Just another example of letting the MD draw the line in the sand. Don't know if that's a bad thing , some ranges are set up differently and so on. But if it never makes it to the MD then there is a possibility that all shooters aren't treated the same.

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So shooter makes it to gun cart folks are tryin to tell him to go to unloadfing table but he cant hear, I would go over to him and advise shooter to go to unloading table, its not like he was walking around with unchecked guns someone had a eye on him the whole time,

 

show me in rule book where it says when you let go of long guns at cart, thats when penalty is earned

 

If post number six above isn't good enough for you I don't think there's anything I can add to that.

 

I asked the question because I wanted to know what the rules are, not argue what they should be. Pale Wolf's ruling is good enough for me. SDQ

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Apparently I was sorta wrong again,,,,, how can you make a call when you don't know when it occurs... myself I'm thinking why call it unless the shooter reaches the next loading table....

 

dunt like gray/grey areas!!!

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Apparently I was sorta wrong again,,,,, how can you make a call when you don't know when it occurs... myself I'm thinking why call it unless the shooter reaches the next loading table....

 

dunt like gray/grey areas!!!

I don't either PB! Unfortunately we live a lot of our lives in grey areas. In this case I don't care much whether it's the cart or the LT at the next stage, I just wanted to know which. Now I know, it's the cart. Thanks PWB!

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I don't either PB! Unfortunately we live a lot of our lives in grey areas. In this case I don't care much whether it's the cart or the LT at the next stage, I just wanted to know which. Now I know, it's the cart. Thanks PWB!

 

I don't either PB! Unfortunately we live a lot of our lives in grey areas. In this case I don't care much whether it's the cart or the LT at the next stage, I just wanted to know which. Now I know, it's the cart. Thanks PWB!

 

Im not arguing with you or PaleWolf he states some RO's / TO's will give penalty at this point ( letting go of guns at cart) I'd just like to see a written rule I can show shooter.

 

PWB does not say that is the Rule, reread the post

 

AO

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Apparently I was sorta wrong again,,,,, how can you make a call when you don't know when it occurs... myself I'm thinking why call it unless the shooter reaches the next loading table....

 

dunt like gray/grey areas!!!

 

Exactly

 

AO

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We agree, grey areas stink.

 

Can we agree that a rule book that eliminates all grey areas might be rather large? And that most and some are not the same?

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don't feel toooooo bad ShyAnnie..... looks like I was in error also.

 

Sooooo, whenever the shooter DOES NOT go to the ULT after the stage run, it really doesn't matter ifn he goes over to his cart or catch the next 4:10 to Yuma, he is earning a Penalty. Regardless of how far he travels or how long it takes ... SDQ.

 

Out of curiousity, does the TO have the option to assess the penalty whether the shooter has relinquished control of his longguns or not?

 

Have I got it correct?

 

 

..........Widder

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We agree, grey areas stink.

 

Can we agree that a rule book that eliminates all grey areas might be rather large? And that most and some are not the same?

 

 

I dont see how you can give a penalty to somebody thats not in rulebook or a range rule thats all., in the case you mentioned it seems like shooter was under supervision ( being watched ) the whole time.,I would advise shooter to go to unloading table if they ignored me at that point it would be a SDQ,

 

IMHO I think your MD made the right call. PWB did not say he was wrong ( PWB is the Man and I would not of posted after him if he would of stated a rule )

 

AO

 

see ya GA State

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There is a penalty for unsafe gun handling also.

 

No where in the rule book does it explain all the aspects of unsafe gun handling.

 

Like pornography, we all know what it is when we see it.

 

Or perhaps we should all reference the RO-III manual again.

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I dont see how you can give a penalty to somebody thats not in rulebook or a range rule thats all., in the case you mentioned it seems like shooter was under supervision ( being watched ) the whole time.,I would advise shooter to go to unloading table if they ignored me at that point it would be a SDQ,

 

IMHO I think your MD made the right call. PWB did not say he was wrong ( PWB is the Man and I would not of posted after him if he would of stated a rule )

 

AO

 

see ya GA State

I was glad he overruled me. I didn't like upholding that call, I just thought it was the right call. MD took that off my hands. Now I'll call it that way at his club and at the cart everywhere else. See ya at GA State!

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Let's think about this....."usually" a shooter who by-passes the Unloading table by mistake isn't thinking clearly because of adrenaline or because something went wrong on the stage and his brain is still trying to process it. If a range official sees this person go to his gun cart, or anywhere else and he is still carrying his long guns around then I don't see the point in hitting him with a SDQ especially if he hasn't relinquished control of said long guns.

 

AND, not that this is an excuse, but the person working the unloading table should be eye-balling the shooter anyway, although I have been at some very big matches where there was no one working the unloading table. The responsibility still rests with the shooter, but if a shooter is still looking back over his shoulder at the TO or the stage, or even conversing with the ROs while they are walking then it should be pretty clear that he/she is not thinking about clearing his guns. That's when little help would be in order.

 

I have had to call this on myself. I was last to shoot the previous stage. Everyone had already moved. I stopped to clean my rifle (BP). In the end it didn't matter it was still my fault.

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For those that would not make the call after the guns were set in the cart then when would you if at all ?

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It was an honest mistake. He felt that the shooter had until he reached the loading table of the next stage to rectify the error.

How can the shooter rectify the "error" at the next stage? You would have to assume that the shooter would have to clear his pistols somewhere, { without breaking the 170 and sweeping other posse members } and if at the next stage he would then earn a SDG for the previous stage, correct? I understand the honest mistake being made. I've called it, it does sting for a little bit.... the ULT officer let the shooter down as well as he could helped to avoid the event from happening! Tough call to make, but you were correct most likely!

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Hi,

 

Is this what you are looking for as rules? The first is on p. 9 of the ROI.

"At the Unloading Table, competitors shall unload each of their firearms, and the Unloading Officer must visually inspect all chambers to make sure they are empty. Rifles and shotguns are cycled to verify their magazines are empty. All revolvers taken to the firing line must be checked, whether or not they were used, and only two main match revolvers may be taken to the line."

 

Penalty is as follows. This is on p. 13.

" Failure to adhere to loading and unloading procedures will result in a Stage Disqualification."

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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"It's just a game " should go both ways. I SDQed myself a week ago and it's been many years since that's happened but no big deal " it's just a game ". But unfortunately the only time people want to say " it's just a game " is to get out from under something rather than take the ding. I know some also have a problem with "loading table area" but at some point that call needs to be made. I don't think a little gray area should make a safety rule invalid. But that's just me. You call it and I'll live with it. After all it's just a game.

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"It's just a game " should go both ways. I SDQed myself a week ago and it's been many years since that's happened but no big deal " it's just a game ". But unfortunately the only time people want to say " it's just a game " is to get out from under something rather than take the ding. I know some also have a problem with "loading table area" but at some point that call needs to be made. I don't think a little gray area should make a safety rule invalid. But that's just me. You call it and I'll live with it. After all it's just a game.

 

DING! A winner! Well stated.

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