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Biometric Question


Aunt Jen

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This thought is inspired by the France Airline thread, but it's a different line of inquiry, so new thread.

 

IF measures were instituted on an airliner to use fingerprint-reading or retina scanning, etc., on the cockpit door for a pilot to re-enter, could that be defeated by someone (terrorist, murderer) doing something like

 

forcing the pilot to allow re-entry

killing the pilot and holding his hand/eye up there

removing the pilot's hand or eye and holding that up there...

 

I'm not wondering to be gross; I'm wondering because of some years ago, when biometrics began to be considered in the population, I remember hearing someone suggest that such reading machinery could be designed so that if there were not actually blood flowing through the body part, that the machinery wouldn't respond.

 

I don't know if it can tell if a finger or eye had been removed, or if the body had died, before placing the appendage to the reading device.

 

But, even if it were designed that way, then might a terrorist be able to incapacitate the pilot, holding his appendage to the reader on the door, without killing him, defeating that....

 

I'm just dong some wondering, here.

 

Thank you

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Hi Aunt Jen. I believe the answer is yes, there are sufficiently sophisticated devices available, however as the complexity/reliability goes up, so does cost. The fact is, sometimes there are just limits to what costs we can justify. That's true for cars, and other things as well. They can always be made safer, at a cost, but there comes a point where we stop because we've reached the acceptable death rate for a given cost. Legislation can change that though.

 

Shadow Catcher

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I see,

 

So the reading device can differentiate between an appendage that has blood pumping through it / alive or not. Thank you for tell me.

 

However, even if used, I wonder if a terrorist could incapacitate the pilot and place his alive appendage up to the reader...defeating the process that way.

 

I think I'm thinking AGAINST such biometric reading devices as no value and as they could escalate heinous acts to circumvent.

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I think all this high tech is overly depended on.

More like some one is give a big contract to pay back favors.

A simple buzz through mutli dead bolt lock with a couple of live feed camera to see who is at the door would do just fine.

Why two cameras, one to see who is at the door face on and one farther back looking at the door to see if there is more than one person in the area leading to the door.

 

While were at it, why not have several live feed cameras through out the aircraft to have a general view of passenger movement and placement.

 

Or how about a double door box for cockpit entry. One or two person box with door on each end. One door open at a time or no one passes.

 

If they want to spend big dollars on airplanes, why not spend it on attitude control computers.

I use simple circuit boards that automatically keep things level when there is no control input.

I think they cost me $55 dollars each.

Use two. One for pitch and one for yaw.

I have a few that are about 20 years old that have never failed.

 

Again, I think there is an over dependance on technology when simple works.

 

And now the government is granting money to companies that are working on computers to take over driving cars and everyone will be a passenger.

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Yes. I follow and agree.

 

I'm concerned as well about the hacking of such biometric data and using it as you.

 

Example: I have an annual pass at Universal Studios, Universal City, by North Hollywood, by Warner Brothers, etc. I only really use it because it's cheaper than buying a parking pass for the theaters, there.

 

But they tell people you have to use a fingerprint to confirm your identity. If pressed, they say it's not the actual fingerprint; it's as a data string, the long password...

 

I'm concerned that if someone hacks them, like they have Target, Home Depot, etc., then they could get that data. (I find it better to change an alphaneumeric password than to use another finger for future use and fight the ID loss with the hacking of a finger print.)

 

Soooo...... I DO NOT let them fingerprint me, and to get my $70, they say, "Okay. Then we'll just check your driver's license when you come through the gate." (They want to make sure it's me and not a friend using my pass.)

 

How does Apple store the fingerprint business on their new iPhones? That little thing reads your print and stores it as Dusty mentioned?

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Yes. I follow and agree.

 

I'm concerned as well about the hacking of such biometric data and using it as you.

 

Example: I have an annual pass at Universal Studios, Universal City, by North Hollywood, by Warner Brothers, etc. I only really use it because it's cheaper than buying a parking pass for the theaters, there.

 

But they tell people you have to use a fingerprint to confirm your identity. If pressed, they say it's not the actual fingerprint; it's as a data string, the long password...

 

I'm concerned that if someone hacks them, like they have Target, Home Depot, etc., then they could get that data. (I find it better to change an alphaneumeric password than to use another finger for future use and fight the ID loss with the hacking of a finger print.)

 

Soooo...... I DO NOT let them fingerprint me, and to get my $70, they say, "Okay. Then we'll just check your driver's license when you come through the gate." (They want to make sure it's me and not a friend using my pass.)

 

How does Apple store the fingerprint business on their new iPhones? That little thing reads your print and stores it as Dusty mentioned?

 

All the fingerprint storage was encrypted that I've seen

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A simpler method that could be used would be to have two keypads on the outside of the door. Two different codes would be required to override the cockpit lockout device. The codes would be divulged to two individual crewmembers who work in the cabin, plus the two flightcrew members just before boarding the aircraft. It would require two crewmembers to enter their codes within a few seconds of each other to override the lockout. The codes could be changed at each flight turnaround. Impossible to compromise or hack? No, of course not. But it would make it quite difficult. Similar methods were used with paper codes on critical defense installations back to the 1960's. So far as I know, they were never compromised. A pad of codes were given to the control center, with a duplicate given to the person needing entry. (The control center was located miles away from the entry point.) Two persons were passed separate codes after authenticating their identities. The separate codes were for combinations to two separate combination locks. After the first lock was opened, the code was changed by the third person (a security guard) for one of the locks. This sounds cumbersome and it would be for an aircrew, but using the keypad and changing the codes would probably make it very difficult to penetrate the cockpit without authorization, except in an emergency.

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Or given the lack of skyjackings in the last 14 years is this a great concern. Are armored doors and "two on the flight deck" rules sufficient? Can we ever completely guard against a pilot who goes of the reservation without warning?

I don't know.

Bear in mind that annual drunk driving deaths are more than all the combined airline deaths in decades.

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Hmmmmm.....

 

I think just have everyone, including crew. Fly naked, so we kmow no weapons. Then have NO door to cockpit. If bad guys interfere, the other 100 passengers could overcome.

 

It's as good as any other.

 

Until Star Trek days.

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Or given the lack of skyjackings in the last 14 years is this a great concern. Are armored doors and "two on the flight deck" rules sufficient? Can we ever completely guard against a pilot who goes of the reservation without warning?

I don't know.

Bear in mind that annual drunk driving deaths are more than all the combined airline deaths in decades.

+1. Keep it simple

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Hmmmmm.....

 

I think just have everyone, including crew. Fly naked, so we kmow no weapons. Then have NO door to cockpit. If bad guys interfere, the other 100 passengers could overcome.

 

It's as good as any other.

 

Until Star Trek days.

Fly naked AND everyone issued a single shot gun,,, with just one bullet each.

 

Forget the overcome part, just shoot the disruptive passenger/pilot. Whomever gets off the airplane, is free to go, no questions asked. Go ahead, jack your seat back into the lap of the person behind you. :unsure:

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Hmmmmm.....

 

I think just have everyone, including crew. Fly naked, so we kmow no weapons. Then have NO door to cockpit. If bad guys interfere, the other 100 passengers could overcome.

 

It's as good as any other.

 

Until Star Trek days.

 

Sounds like Heinlein's "Puppet Masters." I like it.

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Personally, I am strongly against all of the biometric and security crap that they use in order to make us "safe." Before 9/11, the cabin was never locked, and often young people would often be invited into the cabins to be amazed by the technology and maybe even inspired by the pilots. Now, we have gotten so soft as a society and world, that after one terrible incident, we willingly gave up all freedom and shredded the Constitution simply to pretend to keep us safe, and bankrupted us faster in the process. Personally, I would much rather see us get rid of the TSA, Homeland Security, and the evil Patriot Act, even if that means that we have an occasional terrorist act. When we allow ourselves to become totalitarianism-lite to keep us "safe," they win and they are laughing at our fear.

 

Sorry for the vent, but I have a simple solution..train and arm the staff, and either don't lock the doors, or give the flight staff a simple key code to bypass it quickly

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9mm Parabellum? 10mm? 20mm cannon on the Warthog?

 

105mm/155mm Howitzer?

 

Liter of Burbon?

 

I've quickly learned to love some metric stuff as in the stuff above. LOL.

 

have a great day UB

Isn't the cannon on an A-10 a 30mm?

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9mm Parabellum? 10mm? 20mm cannon on the Warthog?105mm/155mm Howitzer?Liter of Burbon?I've quickly learned to love some metric stuff as in the stuff above. LOL.have a great day UB

To clarify:

The Stuff is okay.

It's the system I'm opposed to. ;)

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Isn't the cannon on an A-10 a 30mm?

Yes. Fighter aircraft use the 200 vulcan generally. The 30mm version is used on the Warthog and the Apache uses the 30mm M230 chain gun.

I'm particularly fond of the old M72 40mm myself.

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