Most Wanted Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 No body has mentioned that Trap is a more static shooting sport. One gun, take your time, load one, shoot one, eject the hull, wait for the other four shooters to cycle through until your turn again. Five rounds at each of five shooting positions. When done with your 25 rd for that set, then go back to the back and do whatever. Bench rest shooters is a static game too. Cowboy is an action game involving four guns, mutiple shots per stage, only a few seconds per stage, guns discarded in sometimes questionable conditions, somewhat/times more chaotic situation. Still, no reason to sweep anyone, but Trap shooters have been doing it their way for a long time. I have no idea if they have had any fatalites or serious shootings on their long record. Cleaning your gun is a very "static" event that is supposed to not use any ammo yet people get shot doing it . If we do things to lesson the damage incase of an ND/AD like keeping the muzzle in a safe direction less people would get hurt/killed . That seems simple enough . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Cleaning your gun is a very "static" event that is supposed to not use any ammo yet people get shot doing it . If we do things to lesson the damage incase of an ND/AD like keeping the muzzle in a safe direction less people would get hurt/killed . That seems simple enough . True! Then you and Maker-Wright must think it is good enough to sweep yourself by staring down your long guns muzzles as you push your SASS gun carts or witnessing others doing it. Or going to a Trap Club. I rather view that one should take personal responsibility for their action (pushing gun cart-looking down your own muzzles, cleaning guns, etc) and pay the consequences (get shot).. Just don't take someone with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Me pointing a gun at me is my business . Somebody pointing a gun at me is risky business . As much for them as me . You know what I'm say'n! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maker-Wright Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Many Thanks for the replies everyone, And Many Thanks to the folks I shot with at Pawnee on Saturday for the kind words. Maker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Me pointing a gun at me is my business . Somebody pointing a gun at me is risky business . As much for them as me . You know what I'm say'n! +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 I will say this is an interesting thread, and has been thought provoking. I am not going to offer any opinions on the matter, although I will admit that thus far in my short CAS career keeping muzzles pointed up in the air was initially a challenge and somewhat counter intuitive. Why? Well, two reasons, really. First, as a long time trap shooter, I have only shot break action shotguns. Now, I don't recall ever carrying one with the barrel pointed back over my shoulder. Typically, I have carried it with my arm under it, muzzle at the ground. On occasion, I would carry with the stock back over my shoulder, muzzle(s) forward and down. Carrying one with the muzzles up and keeping it open is virtually impossible. Second, the standard method of carry for rifles in the Army during much of of my military career was the "low ready," with the muzzle pointed just in front of the foot. Like anything else, when confronted with rules, I try to follow them to the best of my ability so long as they aren't dangerous or problematic. I find that works best for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Me pointing a gun at me is my business . Somebody pointing a gun at me is risky business . As much for them as me . You know what I'm say'n!I understand. Be aware that you and everyone else is probably being swept by the muzzle of long guns in 'other' peoples gun cart(s) as each tip back, turn, maneuver and wheel the cart to the next stage. I am satisfied that SASS is/has done a very adequate job of defining 'sweeping' someone else, defining the penalty for doing such and set up a procedure to monitor it. Is there gaps? yes, but I don't think any further actions need to be taken by SASS. I am not a Trap shooter but have very limited exposure. I (personally) have no problem with it and would visit a trap club again,, but am on alert. As far as open public ranges? I shutter and would bolt away at the first sign of improper gun handling (case by case evaluation). I think we are probably on the same page on this topic. Good day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokin Gator SASS #29736 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Looking at the muzzle of your shotgun when pushing your cart with the remote possibility that it could be loaded is quite different to me than sweeping yourself with a handgun that you KNOW is loaded. Smoking Gator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Maker you are apparently different than me and everyone else I know. Putting a long gun into and withdrawing it from a case is not possible for me keeping the muzzle up. My muzzles are down when casing/uncasing. I notice no one on this string has disagreed with my statement that I would rather shoot myself in the foot as the head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maker-Wright Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Maker you are apparently different than me and everyone else I know. Putting a long gun into and withdrawing it from a case is not possible for me keeping the muzzle up. My muzzles are down when casing/uncasing. Impossible for you and everyone you know? In under 17 seconds, the video below shows a safe door being opened, a long gun being taken from the safe, checked for clear, and cased, all with the muzzle up. The actual "casing the gun" part takes about 5 seconds (no longer than casing the gun any other way). Uncasing is done by just reversing the process. I can't speak to how anyone else cases long guns, but this is how I do it. Where there's a will, there's a way... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVopGSPzqqc&feature=youtu.be Maker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 The rules explicitly call out that a shooter is not penalized for sweeping himself! Please, get that through the noggins, pards. That part is STILL left to individual shooter responsibility. Now, it's never good practice, probably never necessary. But, it IS a NO CALL. It's sweeping others that we are supposed to be talking about in this thread. To do otherwise is to engage in the time-honored tradition of CONFUSING THE ISSUE. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maker-Wright Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Maker you are apparently different than me and everyone else I know. Putting a long gun into and withdrawing it from a case is not possible for me keeping the muzzle up. My muzzles are down when casing/uncasing. Post 115 video shows how to case/uncase a long gun muzzle up, but what about using a hard case to take a long gun to and from the range? 16 second video. The only thing that gets swept by an uncased gun is the inside of the safe, and the bed the truck; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUecJLsStJE&feature=youtu.be Maker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Impossible for you and everyone you know? In under 17 seconds, the video below shows a safe door being opened, a long gun being taken from the safe, checked for clear, and cased, all with the muzzle up. The actual "casing the gun" part takes about 5 seconds (no longer than casing the gun any other way). Uncasing is done by just reversing the process. I can't speak to how anyone else cases long guns, but this is how I do it. Where there's a will, there's a way... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVopGSPzqqc&feature=youtu.be Maker Thanks for the vid. Looks very unnatural to me. I have no "will" for it. By your leave or even without it, I will continue to stick my long guns in to the cases muzzle down just as I and millions of others have always done. Just more natural to me. I do not like your way at all nor do I care if you don't like ours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Out of curiosity, and I am not trying to stir the pot, what is the perceived advantage of always keeping the muzzle up, even when casing and uncasing a firearm? I use a mixture of soft and hard cases, but for my soft cases, to do as the video shows when at home, I have to point the muzzle up at the living area of the house to case it. Granted, it is stored that way, and I still check it each time I pull it out, but as I alluded to previously, it seems to me that muzzle awareness is far more important than muzzle direction. As I mentioned earlier, when given rules, I follow them to the best of my ability unless I see them as dangerous or problematic, so the SASS rules are a non-issue for me. I do what they say on the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maker-Wright Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Out of curiosity, and I am not trying to stir the pot, what is the perceived advantage of always keeping the muzzle up, even when casing and uncasing a firearm? I use a mixture of soft and hard cases, but for my soft cases, to do as the video shows when at home, I have to point the muzzle up at the living area of the house to case it. Granted, it is stored that way, and I still check it each time I pull it out, but as I alluded to previously, it seems to me that muzzle awareness is far more important than muzzle direction. As I mentioned earlier, when given rules, I follow them to the best of my ability unless I see them as dangerous or problematic, so the SASS rules are a non-issue for me. I do what they say on the range. Thanks for the civility Doc, As I said in post 105, ... "if I lived in a multi-level (house) I'd adjust my routine accordingly", and, most long gun storage is made to be used muzzle up. I shot Cowboy Silhouette for many years (no gun cart). Uncased rifles were always to be carried muzzle up from an adjacent parking lot to the range, and from firing point to firing point. When arriving at the range, the parking lot could often be crowded (like it can be before a CAS shoot). In that environment, being in the habit casing and uncasing a long gun with the muzzle up was much less likely to result in someone being swept, as well as scoring penalties and disqualifications. I offered up the videos in response to post 114. As I said, I can't speak to how others case their firearms, that's just how I do. Please note; I didn't say in post 105 that casing/uncasing muzzle up is the only option, but rather "Every time someone behind a firing line takes a long gun from the muzzle down position to the muzzle up position, or from the muzzle up position to down, is a chance that someone is going to get swept". Casing and uncasing muzzle up is just the habit I'd found that seemed safest in between the car, long gun racks, and the firing line. But, as long as we aren't sweeping each other, hey... Maker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maker-Wright Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 From some of the other posts... hopefully the thread doesn't go any deeper into the argumentative, "dead horse" direction... Many Thanks, again, for all the replies. Maker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocWard Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Thanks for the civility Doc, As I said in post 105, ... "if I lived in a multi-level (house) I'd adjust my routine accordingly", and, most long gun storage is made to be used muzzle up... I offered up the videos in response to post 114. As I said, I can't speak to how others case their firearms, that's just how I do. Please note; I didn't say in post 105 that casing/uncasing muzzle up is the only option, but rather "Every time someone behind a firing line takes a long gun from the muzzle down position to the muzzle up position, or from the muzzle up position to down, is a chance that someone is going to get swept". Casing and uncasing muzzle up is just the habit I'd found that seemed safest in between the car, long gun racks, and the firing line. But, as long as we aren't sweeping each other, hey... Maker I must have skimmed right past that post. My apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Very interesting conversation. I guess I'm really odd , as when I case my guns, they are almost parallel to the ground with the muzzle pointing down from the parallel. I find that way the easiest to balance. Regards, Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Very interesting conversation. I guess I'm really odd , as when I case my guns, they are almost parallel to the ground with the muzzle pointing down from the parallel. I find that way the easiest to balance. Regards, Allie Me too. As long as no one is being swept I'm going to case my guns in the easiest way possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dang It Dan 13202 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Very interesting conversation. I guess I'm really odd , as when I case my guns, they are almost parallel to the ground with the muzzle pointing down from the parallel. I find that way the easiest to balance. Regards, Allie I drive a truck so I case and uncase my long guns while the case is laying in the bed of the truck. But then again, I work the action of gun as soon as it clears the case, and right before it goes back into the case - a habit that my dad taught me when he took me dove hunting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 All kinds of gun muzzle sweeping of others in the parking lot. Just saying. Could case/uncase on LT or ULT or facing side berm if there is one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 All kinds of gun muzzle sweeping of others in the parking lot. Just saying. Could case/uncase on LT or ULT or facing side berm if there is one. But there doesn't have to be. My guns go in and out of the truck without sweeping anybody. I don't know why people would have a problem doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 But there doesn't have to be. My guns go in and out of the truck without sweeping anybody. I don't know why people would have a problem doing that. Yer correct, it doesn't have to be. Be Aware & Observant next match. Cowboy and an occasional PPW are being handled at vehicles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Maker-Wright Posted April 4, 2015 Share Posted April 4, 2015 From what I gathered during a discussion at a shoot a couple weekends ago, a customer discharged a handgun in Johnny Meadows vendor tent at Winter Range this year. Thankfully no one was hurt... I shot CAS in Wyoming today, was unloading the car when I heard someone say; "is that a bullet hole!?". Turned out, the seasoned shooter, parked two vehicles over from me, was out shooting a bolt-gun somewhere, was standing at the open door of his truck, said he had gotten dirt in the action of his rifle so he rammed the bolt home, and blew a jagged hole from the inside of the door and out through the door skin at the outside edge of the door. The hole was at about head-height in the door frame. Once again, thankfully no one was hurt... To keep this subject in the minds of those in our community, and hopefully/subsequently save someone some grief (or heartbreak) in the process, I'm going to kick this thread to the top every time I hear one of these reports. Please add any recent, substantiated reports along the way that ya'll may have as well. Maker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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