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Muzzle Sweeps and "Anal Retentiveness"


Guest Maker-Wright

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I've purchased 2 guns over the years that I was told were never fired or out of the box. The first thing I check is to make sure any gun handed to me is unloaded. Both of those guns had loads in the chamber!! Just glad the fella selling 'em didn't just pull 'em out and pull the trigger in my house.

 

I do have a question however from a post I believe was earlier in this thread about muzzle up and action open in the cart.Why is it OK at some clubs to close an SxS but not a rifle that has already left the ULT? Seems to me both should be action open or broken in the case of the SxS, but I see quite a few Sxs's closed in the cart.

 

Don't you just love following some hunters in the woods with a rifle on their shoulder that points straight back at 'ya, and then you get a bad look when you duck & shuck and finally say something?

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A few years ago a guy at O'Hare airport was demonstrating that the rifle he was taking for his African safari was unloaded. He did so by pulling the trigger. Put a very large caliber hole through one of the upper windows of the terminal.

 

CR

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A few years ago a guy at O'Hare airport was demonstrating that the rifle he was taking for his African safari was unloaded. He did so by pulling the trigger. Put a very large caliber hole through one of the upper windows of the terminal.

 

CR

Not O'Hare, New Orleans. (MSY) Unless it happened twice.

 

I have met the gentleman.

 

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2011/07/airport_shooting_accident_out.html

 

 

Itchy

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Guest Maker-Wright

A few years ago a guy at O'Hare airport was demonstrating that the rifle he was taking for his African safari was unloaded. He did so by pulling the trigger. Put a very large caliber hole through one of the upper windows of the terminal.

 

CR

Oh Man... don't even get me started on things that happen with guns in airports. I could go on for quite awhile about flying with guns and my experiences with ticket agents, TSA agents, and baggage handlers. Suffice to say, one hand never seems to be in sync with the other, none of them have seemed to be too savvy with firearms, and none have seemed to have studied the rules of their own industry regarding firearms as well as I did as a passenger (one time a ticket agent had to shut down the baggage system at Denver International Airport because after I declared my equipment, she just tossed it on the conveyor. I asked, "doesn't that have to go through TSA first" she crankily said "NO". A fellow employee heard the conversation and got her straightened out, but by then the gear was on it's way to the tarmac).

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Amen I'll add another reason a gun can go off accidentlently, a safe gun that has unsafe parts. Ie a 1911 with a spring out of specs. I had this happen as I loaded, pointed in a safe direction and let the slide fall to strip a round off the top of the magazine. As it did and closed to full battery it fired. I imedatilly replaced the bad spring as this was the second time it happened after the first I adjusted the spring until it was in specs but time weakened it and the ad happened.

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I have been really excited about joining a local club and starting to do some cowboy shooting since it looks like a lot of fun but now I'm beginning to wonder! Judging from some of the replies in this discussion, it almost seems like a place NOT to be if you have a gun for fear of some eagle eye just waiting for a chance to toss someone from the activities for having a long gun pointed upwards at a 78 degree angle rather than the PROPER 90 degrees.

 

Doesn't sound like a friendly place at all.

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That would be a wrong assumption and thus your loss. Go to a match or two and talk with the shooters. I think you'll change your mind.

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I have been really excited about joining a local club and starting to do some cowboy shooting since it looks like a lot of fun but now I'm beginning to wonder! Judging from some of the replies in this discussion, it almost seems like a place NOT to be if you have a gun for fear of some eagle eye just waiting for a chance to toss someone from the activities for having a long gun pointed upwards at a 78 degree angle rather than the PROPER 90 degrees.

 

Doesn't sound like a friendly place at all.

The SASS wire is somewhat famous (or infamous) for over & under reactions in print. Like M.W. said above, please go to a couple shoots & enjoy what the real-world SASS has to offer.

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Howdy

 

I get a little bit tired of Trap shooters being slammed on the SASS Wire. I shoot Trap every week all year long, twice a week during the spring and summer.

 

Now, the simple fact is, there are different interpretations of safety in different shooting disciplines.

 

Like it or not, that is the truth.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't like it any better than anybody else does when a Trap shooter walks around with an O/U shotgun broken open on his shoulder, with the muzzle pointing every which way. But I know darn well that with the gun broken open, there is no way the gun can fire. What I object to is the possibility of being whacked on the noggin when such a clown turns around too quickly.

 

Most of the time I shoot a Model 12 Pump in Trap. There is no muzzle up rule anywhere in Trap, or any other shotgun sport that I am aware of. When I walk from the gun rack to the line, the action is open and the muzzle is pointing at the ground. I am always sure not to sweep anybody with it as I walk up to the line. And I try not to sweep my own foot too.

 

Most of the guys who are regulars at my club, and the shooters I shoot against in Trap League are very aware of muzzle direction. Most do as I do, gun open and pointed at the ground, without sweeping anybody. But I can tell you, I do not get upset if the muzzle of a broken open O/U happens to sweep me. It is obviously unloaded and simply cannot fire. It's a different story with a semi-auto or pump, I might not be close enough to see if the action is open. But on the very rare occasion, and it is rare, when the muzzle of a broken open O/U sweeps me, I know it simply cannot fire.

 

So stop slamming Trap shooters. Accept the fact that there might be slightly different shooting etiquette in disciplines that you are not familiar with.

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Guest Maker-Wright

I have been really excited about joining a local club and starting to do some cowboy shooting since it looks like a lot of fun but now I'm beginning to wonder! Judging from some of the replies in this discussion, it almost seems like a place NOT to be if you have a gun for fear of some eagle eye just waiting for a chance to toss someone from the activities for having a long gun pointed upwards at a 78 degree angle rather than the PROPER 90 degrees.

 

Doesn't sound like a friendly place at all.

 

Of course I may be biased, but I'd have to say that Cowboy Action is the friendliest, safest, funnest shooting sport there is. I also believe very strongly that CAS venues routinely provide some of the VERY BEST environments for shooters of any skill level to acquire safe gun handling habits in.

 

You really need to go to a shoot to know what a shoot is like.

 

Maker

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Good article, but I do object to the term "Accidental Discharge"! After 28 years in the military and competing since 1986 in at least 4 other shooting disciplines I know that there is absolutely no such thing as an "Accidental Discharge", stop the BS. All that phrase is an excuse to help absolve a shooter of the responsibility of having a NEGLIGENT DISCHARGE. There is nothing "Accidental" about it.

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I went trap shooting with a friend at public range a couple of weeks ago. I just couldn't believe how careless people were about muzzle control. There were people walking around with open shotguns over thier shoulders, guns pointed in every direction and everyone acted like it was normal. I started to think just that I had shot cowboy so long that maybe I was the odd ball. Let me say I didn't feel comfortable.

Another thing I have never understood is how people shoot themselves cleaning thier guns. The first thing I do when I pick up any firearm is check its condition, doesn't matter if I laid it down five minutes ago or someone handed it to me. Check the chamber, check the mag. To start running a swap down the barrel without checking the condition just amazes me.

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Of course I may be biased, but I'd have to say that Cowboy Action is the friendliest, safest, funnest shooting sport there is. I also believe very strongly that CAS venues routinely provide some of the VERY BEST environments for shooters of any skill level to acquire safe gun handling habits in.

 

 

 

 

 

Maker

 

Maker and I probably have more fun than most when we're at the range. We also attempt to shoot as fast as we can.

And, safety is paramount when we are shooting. After shooting in other venues CAS is the safest and most fun.

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I went trap shooting with a friend at public range a couple of weeks ago. I just couldn't believe how careless people were about muzzle control. There were people walking around with open shotguns over thier shoulders, guns pointed in every direction and everyone acted like it was normal. I started to think just that I had shot cowboy so long that maybe I was the odd ball. Let me say I didn't feel comfortable.

 

So is it possible you are uncomfortable with a shooting discipline that follows a different etiquette than you are used to? Was it possible for one of those broken open shotguns to fire?

 

 

 

Another thing I have never understood is how people shoot themselves cleaning thier guns. The first thing I do when I pick up any firearm is check its condition, doesn't matter if I laid it down five minutes ago or someone handed it to me. Check the chamber, check the mag. To start running a swap down the barrel without checking the condition just amazes me.

 

When Ernest Hemingway died the newspapers reported he had accidentally shot himself while cleaning a shotgun. I clearly remember my father saying that it was no accident, if anybody knew their way around firearms, it was Hemingway. It turns out Hemingway's wife had started the reports that it was an accidental shooting. Most likely it was suicide.

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Howdy Texatdurango,

 

Of course I may be biased, but I'd have to say that Cowboy Action is the friendliest, safest, funnest shooting sport there is. I also believe very strongly that CAS venues routinely provide some of the VERY BEST environments for shooters of any skill level to acquire safe gun handling habits in.

 

Was it Captain George Baylor who said something like; "The Wire isn't Cowboy Action Shooting, and Cowboy Action Shooting isn't the Wire"?

 

Texatdurango, you really need to go to a shoot to know what a shoot is like. :)

 

Maker

Oh, I'm not giving up yet ;) , it's just that so many of the replies above and in another related thread seem to portray folks walking around with red flags on a stick hoping to be able to wave them at someone. Actually, just so happens that they are having a match down around Casa Grande, Arizona this coming weekend. I don't know if it is a SASS event or just a local cowboy shooting group but I plan on being there to soak things up like a sponge. I'm actually sorta committed now since I ordered a rifle yesterday from a fellow in West Virginia and should have it in a couple weeks.

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I know and understand all the rules discussed, and preach them to others on many occasions. I am super conscious of how I and others handle their firearms. Always have been and always will be, very careful in handling any firearm.

 

I hear several of the posters here making bad remarks about Skeet shooters not watching barrel direction very closely, when carrying a broken open O/U shotgun while waiting their turn on the field.

 

First off, EVERYONE watches to be sure that NO-ONE ever loads their shotgun, unless they are on the station, preparing to fire on a target. NO-ONE is allowed to leave the shooting station, until the gun is cleared, even the empties. Autos and pumps MUST have their chambers OPEN, anytime they are not on a shooting station. O/U shotguns MUST be open and empty. These games are shot by 5 man teams, and everybody watches everyone else on the safety measures. That's why the millions of Skeet and Trap shooters have the long standing safety records that they have. Most Clubs will ask you to leave, if your behavior is less than safe. Maybe told once, but run off if it persists.

 

I want anyone here to explain to me, how you can POSSIBLY fire, intended or accidently, either one, an O/U Shotgun that is broken open, with absolutely nothing in the chambers. I'll personally award you 1 million dollars, if you can show or explain just how that's accomplished. Simple....It's totally impossible. That's why I don't concern myself about O/U muzzle direction on a Skeet field.

 

The rule of open and empty is strictly enforced, at all ranges I have ever attended, and I have shot Skeet and Trap for well over 30 years. There may be those that don't, and I would be the first to leave, if I found one that didn't enforce the safety rules. However, I refuse to be anal-retentive to the point of being stupid. At 81 years old, I don't think I have gone far wrong.

 

RBK

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Guest Maker-Wright

 

Maker and I probably have more fun than most when we're at the range...

Man I whole-heartedly agree with that!

 

Hope to see you on the range again soon, Assassin.

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While we are being so "Holy" about muzzle sweeps I have one Question????

 

Why is it legal to sweep yourself at SASS matches when it is a MDQ at EVERY other shooting venue on the Planet??????

 

 

Because otherwise NOone could draw a pistol unless they were doing double crossdraw

 

Oh, I'm not giving up yet ;) , it's just that so many of the replies above and in another related thread seem to portray folks walking around with red flags on a stick hoping to be able to wave them at someone. Actually, just so happens that they are having a match down around Casa Grande, Arizona this coming weekend. I don't know if it is a SASS event or just a local cowboy shooting group but I plan on being there to soak things up like a sponge. I'm actually sorta committed now since I ordered a rifle yesterday from a fellow in West Virginia and should have it in a couple weeks.

 

 

You have made an astute deduction. They do not carry red flags on sticks but they are amongst us. My explanation is that many SASSers used to be either full blown or closet hoplophobes. In their former lives they could never have imagined that one day they would be enjoying an actual shooting sport with gasp real guns. Muzzle down carry is WAY more inherently safe than muzzle up carry but is routinely roundly ridiculed here. Think about it. I would much rather blow your toes or my owndangfoot off as your head or my head. Duh.

 

I am with DJ that folks here really need to stop with the trap bashing. Has anyone ever heard of anyone ever being shot with a broke open 2row? Of course not. Just like when they are open in the cart, they are completely incapable of firing and thus harmless. To fear that is somehow, at least to me, just plain nonsensical.

 

What does give me the heebie jeebies is those African safari shows where the client is running after the professional hunter whilst pointing a dangerous game really BIG bore rifle right at his back! Yikes!

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My intention was not to bash trap/skeet shooters in my post so I apologize if I offended anyone. The guys I were referring to were shooting semi-automatics and were carrying them like an under/over on their arm like a double. A couple of others noticed it but didn't say anything and I could not see the action so I POLITELY asked them to either point the muzzle up or down and they took offense at it. These same guys went over to shoot sporting clays and were climbing on/off the stands with the guns in their hand. That's when I decided to pack it up and head home for the day. These 2 lug nuts are definitely an exception as most skeet/trap shooters practice safe gun handling. Most of my 4Hers use semi-auto or pump shotguns as this helps reduce felt recoil and parents don't have to buy another shotgun. No offense intended and I hope none was taken. Just wanted to relate my experience so others would know what to expect from someone who would take offense to being reminded of safe gun handling habits. If someone sees me doing something unsafe, and corrects me, I would thank them and apologize for doing it.

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At most of our shooting matches we are shooting with at least some shooters we have never met. We don't know their level of experience in the shooting sports. They don't know what we know about firearms either. We need to it keep simple and firm - Sweep someone; "Pay a Penalty".

 

I know one thing for sure: If a gun goes off and the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction, no one is hurt. I guess I know two things. #2: If a gun goes off and the muzzle is pointed at someone; someone is going to get hurt. Muzzle control is essential.

 

Open or closed - Loaded or Unloaded, when it comes to keeping safe, I want to be able to watch just one end of a gun (the muzzle end). I don't want to have to look to see if the action is open or closed, much less check and see if the gun is loaded.

 

KCD

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Maker-Wright wrote a very good article about muzzle control and safety.

 

I can not argue with it and agree, I don't like to be swept either. Especially by folks that I do not know their skill level nor can not easily verify the condition of their firearm (action open). There are some glaring circumstances in the shooting sports that do not follow his sound advice nor the standard advice of Gun Safety, muzzle control for this discussion.

 

As others have already pointed out, if you:

 

1) Go to a Trap Club, you will be swept by a muzzle from someone else. Open/empty or otherwise. MW didn't specify about open/empty or otherwise.

2) If you go to a store or a gun show, that sells guns, you will be swept by a barrel(s). Or you will be sweeping someone if you handle/examine a firearm.

3) If you have a SASS gun cart with muzzle pointed upwards, most likely you will be sweeping yourself and/or others as you tilt back and wheel the cart. Same with muzzle down in cart, difficult to handle firearm without sweeping someone.

4) You will be sweeping yourself as you draw and reholster your revolvers at the loading table, firing line, unloading table and racking your long guns back at your cart.

 

Solution? Attend the different shooting venues at your own risk, which we do now, and follow the general customs/rules of that sport. If it is to uncomfortable or unsettling for you, then politely remove yourself. For gun shows and stores? Same thing, partisipate at your own level of comfort. As some have said, it maybe better to leave if a particular individual makes you nervous and nothing is being done about it.

 

SASS safety rules are very good but as Dang It Dan points out, there is a dump down effect within the SASS rules that allows a second chance at the same event for sweeping someone.

 

I would also like to point out at a SASS shoot, you have people of a wide variation of shooting skill level and age, handling a minimum of four firearms (at gun carts in the back of the stage, loading/unloading table) and in a very congested area where other shooters are present. A unique situation that other shooting sports do not have to deal with.

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I guess I can't use my barrel buttons and toe savers?

 

 

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a0b286bb63225a67033d37e96588bdcf_zpsfbfb

 

Selling them on the Wire Classifieds probably won't work.

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I have been really excited about joining a local club and starting to do some cowboy shooting since it looks like a lot of fun but now I'm beginning to wonder! Judging from some of the replies in this discussion, it almost seems like a place NOT to be if you have a gun for fear of some eagle eye just waiting for a chance to toss someone from the activities for having a long gun pointed upwards at a 78 degree angle rather than the PROPER 90 degrees.

 

Doesn't sound like a friendly place at all.

More importantly sounds like a safe place.

 

Itchy

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All this discussion about muzzle control has me wondering what the safety record looks like for CAS vs. other shooting sports-IDPA, etc. Anybody have any data? And, for CAS, if there is data, which gun has caused the most injuries-pistol, shotgun or rifle?

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Not O'Hare, New Orleans. (MSY) Unless it happened twice.

 

I have met the gentleman.

 

http://www.nola.com/crime/index.ssf/2011/07/airport_shooting_accident_out.html

 

 

Itchy

My bad memory - still ...

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Shotgun open, empty. Rifle open, empty. Anydarnthing open, empty. I really don't care. It gives me the willies to look down a muzzle that I do not have control of. The safety protocols and behaviors I have witnessed in SASS are stellar. I do avoid open public ranges now after having been exposed to the great models set in the different shooting disciplines.

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Oh, I'm not giving up yet ;) , it's just that so many of the replies above and in another related thread seem to portray folks walking around with red flags on a stick hoping to be able to wave them at someone. Actually, just so happens that they are having a match down around Casa Grande, Arizona this coming weekend. I don't know if it is a SASS event or just a local cowboy shooting group but I plan on being there to soak things up like a sponge. I'm actually sorta committed now since I ordered a rifle yesterday from a fellow in West Virginia and should have it in a couple weeks.

The Casa Grande match this weekend is the 2 day annual for the Dusty Bunch and it's definitely a SASS sanctioned match. There will be lotsa' great shooters therE to watch & palaver with. I know of several renowned vendor/gunsmiths that will be there with firearms and parts, etc., Johnny Meadows, Palo Verde, Squibber (match director) so ya' might want to bring some $$$$$. Great match to attend and soak up lotsa, info. HAVE FUN & WELCOME TO OUR PASSION! :lol:

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It is not necessary to sweep yourself when drawing a handgun from a holster. I've seen shooters with limp holsters who reach over with the off hand to hold the holster open as they holster the gun. Get a proper holster. A normal, holster without a severe cant, worn at 3-4 o'clock allows you to draw and holster your handgun, without sweeping, unless you are standing or sitting with your leg stuck out to the side. Crotch holsters, different story.

A few shooters were dq'd at the IDPA Ca. state match a couple of years ago for sweeping their leg as they drew their pistol from a seated position. Everyone was specifically warned to be careful how they positioned their legs during the stage walkthrough. A couple hundred shooters made it through and a few got complacent and were penalized. Smoking Gator

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Guest Maker-Wright

It is not necessary to sweep yourself when drawing a handgun from a holster. I've seen shooters with limp holsters who reach over with the off hand to hold the holster open as they holster the gun. Get a proper holster. A normal, holster without a severe cant, worn at 3-4 o'clock allows you to draw and holster your handgun, without sweeping, unless you are standing or sitting with your leg stuck out to the side. Crotch holsters, different story.

A few shooters were dq'd at the IDPA Ca. state match a couple of years ago for sweeping their leg as they drew their pistol from a seated position. Everyone was specifically warned to be careful how they positioned their legs during the stage walkthrough. A couple hundred shooters made it through and a few got complacent and were penalized. Smoking Gator

Howdy SG,

 

Not sure if your post is in response to post #65 or not, if so, the pictures are the result of a shotgun blast to the toes, not a handgun injury.

 

Maker

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Guest Maker-Wright

Sorry Maker,

 

Something like this came up before and my memory was that my mentor said it was too graphic and does not show shooting sports in a good light. I'm talking about the "shotgun blast to the foot."

 

Regards,

 

Allie

Miss Allie,

 

Please, please, reconsider. Awhile back there was a thread here on the wire that showed a 32-20 cartridge case that had been driven through someone's finger by and automated reloading machine, and I don't recall the image being removed.

 

And please consider the subject matter. These devices intentionally have shooters point firearms directly at themselves, while their hands are directly on the firearms, in environments where live ammunition has been, and is being used by those same shooters.

 

Please allow the safety of our shooters to be paramount in this instance. The photo doesn't portray shooting sports in a bad light anymore than someone slamming their hand in a car door portrays automobiles in a bad light. The photo portrays poor judgment in a bad light. The injured person didn't lose any parts, and survived the incident just fine. Furthermore, the injured party took pictures, and shared those images as a cautionary tale to prevent others from suffering the same fate.

 

Thank you very much for your consideration.

 

Maker

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