WBAS match at Winter Range

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

Besides the Cowboy Action match the Wild Bunch National Championship match was also held at Winter Range. Many here don't frequent the WBAS Forum so I wanted to share some news about the match with you. First of all there are a good number of Ladies shooting Wild Bunch. Almost 20% of our shooters this year were Ladies. So those who think it may be to difficult to handle the 1911 or the power factor fear not. Come out and shoot with us.

 

Results:

 

Ladies Modern category: Shamrock Sadie

 

Ladies Traditional category: Texas Tiger

 

Men Modern category: Capt. Sam Evans

 

Men Traditional category: Samuel B. Carpenter

 

For only the 2nd time at a major WBAS match we had a CLEAN MATCH: Silvertip

[Dragon Hill Dave #59561]

It was a good match. Thanks for sharing the info and to all those who put on the match.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

Wild Bunch was a super match this year! Targets were a mix of near and not-so-far plus a real diversity of choices- heck, pick a place to start and a gun to start shooting on most stages.

 

I sincerely hope this is the new school for WB.

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

Congrats to Capt. Sam Evans on his win, and Silvertip, for his clean match. One clean match? Sheesh.

 

I'm not sure exactly what we're after here in WBAS, but I was underwhelmed by the match.

 

Lots of shooting, to be sure, but some truly strange stage scenarios, and, it seemed to me, a bit more of a precision pistol match than an action match, just with lotsa mag changes, more than anything else.

 

I keep hoping for better...

 

Flame on.

 

Cheers,

FJT

[J. Frank Norfleet]

A different, but great match! I too hope it portends of the future.

L

[Happy Jack, SASS #20451]

BTT for those who didn't notice.

[Gawd Awful]

Congrats to Capt. Sam Evans on his win, and Silvertip, for his clean match. One clean match? Sheesh.

 

I'm not sure exactly what we're after here in WBAS, but I was underwhelmed by the match.

 

Lots of shooting, to be sure, but some truly strange stage scenarios, and, it seemed to me, a bit more of a precision pistol match than an action match, just with lotsa mag changes, more than anything else.

 

I keep hoping for better...

 

Flame on.

 

Cheers,

FJT

I WANT to be excited about wild bunch, but like you, I'm just not sold yet. I'm not sure what's missing, but right now, it's not there for me

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

Congratulations to the WR winners!

 

Although I am almost always in last place at monthly matches, I WBAS.

 

Please come to the California State WBAS Championship at Diamond Dick's Cowboy Town, near Sacramento, and you will find out why.

 

I and have few problems with the guns. I'm just slow or I could say, not in a hurry, savoring the experience...

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[J. Frank Norfleet]

I WANT to be excited about wild bunch, but like you, I'm just not sold yet. I'm not sure what's missing, but right now, it's not there for me

 

You have to really enjoy shooting a 1911 for Wild Bunch to excite you. If that is not there then it's not there.

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

I really enjoy action pistol matches, and WB has the potential to be sufficiently similar to that, and CAS, that it threatens to become my favorite shooting sport.

 

But if next year is a repeat of this year, I'll have to think long and hard before I drop the coin for two of us, on that match. The local matches are much more enjoyable.

 

YMMV.

 

Cheers,

FJT

[Gawd Awful]

 

You have to really enjoy shooting a 1911 for Wild Bunch to excite you. If that is not there then it's not there.

I enjoy shooting outlaw steel matches, and USPSA matches with my 1911, and I love SASS, but most wild bunch matches I've seen are....... Lacking in what makes me enjoy sass, and what makes me enjoy other disaplines

[August West, SASS #45079]

...... Lacking in what makes me enjoy sass, and what makes me enjoy other disaplines

 

Which is?

[Boggus Deal #64218]

Yes, folks. Please tell us what you're looking for in a WBAS shooting match! I am excited about WBAS and want to see it grow. I know that Happy Jack, Evil Roy and Texas Jack Morales are as interested to hear what people would like to see.

Not only did Silvertip shoot a clean match, he placed second overall doing it!

All of the winners have a lot to be proud of!

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

Howdy,

I would also like to congratulate the winners at WR.

 

The NY State WB match is next month April 25- 26. The Circle K regulators ( home of Helva Rukus ) is putting on the match. The stages and the target setups will show you why WB is both fun and challenging to shoot.

 

Nawlins

[Gawd Awful]

 

Which is?

This is the biggest problem, I'm not entirely sure..... I know with a outlaw steel match, or USPSA its movement, and multiple targets from multiple positions. Most W/B matches I have seen around here and other places are "stand here, shoot the targets in this order, change mags and repeat, change mags and repeat again, change mags and repeat again...,repeat.....repeat. It feels like a waste of ammo. The rifle is fine, the stoaked shotgun is fun, but standing in one place, repeating the same pistol sequence over and over is..... Lacking. And some matches boast "higher round count pistol strings". But some of those are just more repeats of the same pistol string you started with.

 

I keep hearing W/B isn't cowboy with a 1911, but it is. You download a gun to 5 rounds (like a 6 shooter in cowboy) your not allowed to makeup misses (Virginian count scoring like CAS), your DQd for moving with a cocked gun (like CAS, unlike any other ACTION shooting sport)

 

I realize there is a concern about some of the "less experienced" shooters, and the "senior crowd", and maybe I just have to accept that it isn't for me, but when you put a semi auto in my hand, and then tell me I have to act like a cowboy shooter, it looses its luster. Probably because I KNOW what it's like to play other games.

[Dapper Dynamite Dick]

Frankly, I was a little disappointed for a number of reasons, I still had fun though. With the high round count on EVERY stage, I think this is starting to look like "IPSC in costume" and I left IPSC 14 years ago basically because it generated a lot of "I'm a gawds gift a$$h**es". I wouldn't want to see that happen in Wild Bunch.

 

Coming for outside of the US, I had to submit my paperwork to bring guns and ammo into the country well in advance. The last minute round count increase came the day before I left for Phoenix, any later and I would not have been able to compete because I wouldn't have submitted that amount of .45 acp on my BATF Form. Late changes also caused problems for a fellow shooter from Canada who showed up with only 5 magazines for his .45. He hadn't planned for any increased round count either.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

This is the biggest problem, I'm not entirely sure..... I know with a outlaw steel match, or USPSA its movement, and multiple targets from multiple positions. Most W/B matches I have seen around here and other places are "stand here, shoot the targets in this order, change mags and repeat, change mags and repeat again, change mags and repeat again...,repeat.....repeat. It feels like a waste of ammo. The rifle is fine, the stoaked shotgun is fun, but standing in one place, repeating the same pistol sequence over and over is..... Lacking. And some matches boast "higher round count pistol strings". But some of those are just more repeats of the same pistol string you started with.

 

I keep hearing W/B isn't cowboy with a 1911, but it is. You download a gun to 5 rounds (like a 6 shooter in cowboy) your not allowed to makeup misses (Virginian count scoring like CAS), your DQd for moving with a cocked gun (like CAS, unlike any other ACTION shooting sport)

 

I realize there is a concern about some of the "less experienced" shooters, and the "senior crowd", and maybe I just have to accept that it isn't for me, but when you put a semi auto in my hand, and then tell me I have to act like a cowboy shooter, it looses its luster. Probably because I KNOW what it's like to play other games.

Hi GA,

 

That is not how we do it. We have several pistol scenarios and positions. You may do a tombstone rack, move to stationary targets, move and engage the rifle targets...

 

Regards,

 

AM

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

One thing that really needs change'n in WB, is that stupid 5 rnd limit in the 1911's

OLG

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

One thing that really needs change'n in WB, is that stupid 5 rnd limit in the 1911's

OLG

Hi OLG,

 

I don't mind the five round limit. The only thing I suggest is, if seven is allowed, it must be seven and not mixed, five on some stages and seven on others. We've done that and it was troublesome to remember that you had seven. One way or the other, not both.

 

Regards,

 

AM

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

That is odd. What's the point of shooting a 1911 with only five rounds? Isn't the whole point of a 1911 to be able to load and shoot full mags? I hate that we can only load five rounds in our six shooters, but at least that has a little (very little) merrit since there is a rule against a hammer over a live round. But that isn't the case with the 1911.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Hi OLG,

 

I don't mind the five round limit. The only thing I suggest is, if seven is allowed, it must be seven and not mixed, five on some stages and seven on others. We've done that and it was troublesome to remember that you had seven. One way or the other, not both.

 

Regards,

 

AM

Agree 110%, that mixed count would be a very bad idea all the way around.

Just will never understand the thought behind that 5 rnd limit nonsense.

OLG

[Gawd Awful]

Hi OLG,

 

I don't mind the five round limit. The only thing I suggest is, if seven is allowed, it must be seven and not mixed, five on some stages and seven on others. We've done that and it was troublesome to remember that you had seven. One way or the other, not both.

 

Regards,

 

AM

Simple solution, do away with the round count.

 

Here are the targets, shoot them in this order...... Makeup any misses, use as many rounds as necessary to complete the course of fire. Round count and reloads become dictated by the shooters ability instead of the stage description.

[Dusty Boddems]

This is the biggest problem, I'm not entirely sure..... I know with a outlaw steel match, or USPSA its movement, and multiple targets from multiple positions. Most W/B matches I have seen around here and other places are "stand here, shoot the targets in this order, change mags and repeat, change mags and repeat again, change mags and repeat again...,repeat.....repeat. It feels like a waste of ammo. The rifle is fine, the stoaked shotgun is fun, but standing in one place, repeating the same pistol sequence over and over is..... Lacking. And some matches boast "higher round count pistol strings". But some of those are just more repeats of the same pistol string you started with.

I keep hearing W/B isn't cowboy with a 1911, but it is. You download a gun to 5 rounds (like a 6 shooter in cowboy) your not allowed to makeup misses (Virginian count scoring like CAS), your DQd for moving with a cocked gun (like CAS, unlike any other ACTION shooting sport)

I realize there is a concern about some of the "less experienced" shooters, and the "senior crowd", and maybe I just have to accept that it isn't for me, but when you put a semi auto in my hand, and then tell me I have to act like a cowboy shooter, it looses its luster. Probably because I KNOW what it's like to play other games.

 

GA, we don't do any stages like what you say you have seen. The matches we do in Texas feature lots of movement and yes lots of rounds . We don't stand around and shoot the same targets over and over. 5 round mags are for the benefit of mag changes. Now I understand everyone always has a better way than what's done right now but don't you think judgement should be reserved until you've shot a few matches? Gear is not the problem nor is not having enough mags. Wild bunch shooters are generous to a fault. WB was started as a plus game in other words a big bore higher power factor game that routinely is shot at greater distances than cas because it is not cas with a 1911. Really if you haven't noticed the differences by now I'm lost for words. I will ask you this though are you sure it was a real wild bunch match you went to or was it an ice cream social ? Dusty Boddams

[Gawd Awful]

GA, we don't do any stages like what you say you have seen. The matches we do in Texas feature lots of movement and yes lots of rounds . We don't stand around and shoot the same targets over and over. 5 round mags are for the benefit of mag changes. Now I understand everyone always has a better way than what's done right now but don't you think judgement should be reserved until you've shot a few matches? Gear is not the problem nor is not having enough mags. Wild bunch shooters are generous to a fault. WB was started as a plus game in other words a big bore higher power factor game that routinely is shot at greater distances than cas because it is not cas with a 1911. Really if you haven't noticed the differences by now I'm lost for words. I will ask you this though are you sure it was a real wild bunch match you went to or was it an ice cream social ? Dusty Boddams

Gear isn't a concern, I have everything that's needed, and before I moved down to Pheonix

I have shot a few matches, and I have watched video of matches on YouTube, like I said, I really want to like it, some of my really good friends enjoy it, and it would be another opportunity to spend time with great people having fun on the range. im not judging it on some "ice cream social" rumors, but from MY experinces at multipal clubs from different regions like I said earlier, I really want to like it

[Dusty Boddems]

GA, everything's not for everybody but sounds like your trying to like it. Maybe you will . Tell you what if your travels ever bring you to north texas on the fourth weekend CVV club is just south of ft.worth. We shoot wild bunch and we do it well. I would like to invite you and your wife or friend come out shoot WB with us and I'll pay both your entry fees to the match. We would enjoy having you and proving WB shooters can't get enough we will shoot a BAMM competition after lunch. Dusty Boddams

[Gawd Awful]

Dusty,

I have friends in TX that I hope to visit in the next year or so. If I can make it work I will try to make that work, if for no other reason than to meet more great cowboys 😀

[Shamrock Sadie]

Yes, folks. Please tell us what you're looking for in a WBAS shooting match! I am excited about WBAS and want to see it grow. I know that Happy Jack, Evil Roy and Texas Jack Morales are as interested to hear what people would like to see.

Not only did Silvertip shoot a clean match, he placed second overall doing it!

All of the winners have a lot to be proud of!

We had a great time at Winter Range hanging out shooting with our posse for WB and CAS. I have the same opinion of FJT...make it fun.

Many folks gave their opinion of WB privately (after the match), but I don't think they want to give it publicly. So I'm going out on a limb here, knowing that I might get bashed, but you asked for suggestions to make WB better and I hope more inviting to the masses.

 

Suggestions:

- Get rid of the hostage targets. Many folks shot the body of the target where the swinger was supposed to be hit, yet they were called clean. These types of targets are hard for folks to spot.

- Get rid of the dueling trees. Folks couldn't spot those either. A knock down rack might have worked better.

- Most folks shooting WB are cowboy shooters and that's where they will continue to come from. You have to cater to the majority, knowing that you can't please everyone. Use the KISS method (simple)...in the sense of keeping the magazine loads at 5, because that's the count cowboys use on CAS. Most of the shooters shoot both WB and CAS, so keep that in mind when you want to do anything out of the ordinary.

- Round count for pistol was rather high for every stage.

- Reloading the SG on the clock (on several stages) clearly gave an advantage to those CAS shooters who normally shoot a 97.

- I'd rather not see WB turn into an IDPA match. WBAS is action, not aiming.

- I liked the movement between guns (tables) and the choices that were given to the shooters....great job there!

 

P.S. Knot Hardly Dunn agrees with the suggestions above.

[Shamrock Sadie]

Hat's off to Silver Tip on the clean WB match. Great job!

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

If a person can count to 5. I'll bet they can go all the way to 7, also-

At least WB lets you start with a load'd SG

OLG

[Frederick Jackson Turner]

Sadie;

Congrats on your fine showing at Winter Range, and for articulating the concerns that I heard, so eloquently. I expect that this game is in an evolutionary stage, and listening to the voices of some top competitors might be useful.

 

Cheers,

FJT

[union jack]

First of all congratulations to all who won ,shot clean and generally made this match a very pleasant experience .

 

Personally I enjoyed the match even though I probably shot the worst that I have shot in a very long time,but ,this was because of my own failings not due to the match. I liked the layout and the target presentation and really don't have any issues. I will agree that loading the shotgun on the clock does give an advantage to those of us who shoot '97s in cowboy but then again if this is the way of the future then we will all have to practice it.

 

I really like dueling trees and hostage targets,it would make it easier to spot if the plates were not locked but then we would have the problem of not everyone getting the same target presentation but I kind of enjoy that too.It gives one the chance to rag on the previous shooter for leaving me with a crappy lineup and I definatly enjoy that, even better when I can do it to shooter behind me.

At the end of the day it is a shooting competition, with 1911's ,with the ammunition loaded close to the power factor it was meant to be and that can only be a good time . Do I think there should be seven in the mags? ....yes....do I care that there are only five?......no . Just tell me what to do and I will enjoy doing it.

However do I think weasel math scoring stinks?....YES ....Will it change? I hope so . I think that any scoring system that requires a multiplier that is not openly applied has the appearance of being subject to interpretation . I am a total time guy . I am not going to argue the point , if I get to the point where I really cant deal with it any more I will go someplace else . I absolutely come to enjoy this sport along with cowboy for the people and the for the whole experience.

 

I very much thank all those who put this together . Babe Ruthless and I had a wonderful time and we will be back next year , lets make it 12 stages and have a separate awards .

 

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

First time at WR. The Wild Bunch match was a great shoot. I am already planning to attend next year.

 

Special thanks to all of those whose hard work made it happen - Evil Roy and Texas Jack Morales are the only two names I know of but there were many, many others.

[Medicine Creek Johnny]

Thanks for your post Sadie. I agree withh all your points. With only 1 clean shooter will some get discouraged? I did enjoy it simply because any type of shooting is fun for me but I do like the faster action shooting better.

MCAj

[Shamrock Sadie]

- I'd rather not see WB turn into an IDPA match. WBAS is action, not aiming.

 

Don't get me wrong....we had a great time shooting WB and I personally know the time and effort it takes to put on a big match. Emulating what FJT said, WB is really in its infancy and it is going to take some tweaking to bring more folks to the game. I just simply prefer to go fast and know that burning down the stages is not for everyone.

 

See you on the trail.

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

Another item to consider on the "why I didn't shoot the WB match" list is my own personal reason. Twice before major Sass matches I've shot the WB match and had my confidence destroyed by equipment problems and hearing "67.42 & 12" from the TO every time I finished a stage. Couple that with the exhaustion from shooting from 8 to 4 for two days and it's now a no-go before major matches.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love WB with reasonable targets at reasonable distances and will shoot it every chance I get. I brought all my equipment to WR in case I felt up to shooting it there, but decided at the last minute to sit it out and after talking to many who did shoot it believe I made the right decision.

 

I know that "WB is not SASS with a 1911" but believe you'd get more participation and happier participants if it at least resembled it somewhat.

That said I'd like to thank all those who put it on, even if I didn't shoot it. It takes a lot of work and you are not going to make everyone happy. I'm glad it was available for those who did enjoy it!