Dungannon Gunner Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Please can someone tell me, are you supposed to completely tighten down (spring to metal) the Main spring screw (#36) ? If yes , should I install the # 53 Main spring adjusting screw only after the Main Spring screw is tight? Thanks in advance for any assist!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ T. Sites Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Snug up the main spring screw don't over tighten. 53 is a adjustment for spring tension , I don't have mine touching the spring . If you have problems setting off primers tighten it up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 The short answer is YES. To both. It is intended by design, the Main Spring screw should bring the main spring into contact with the lower tang. Then the smaller front screw is installed until contact with the spring. The adjusting screw is designed to add tension to a weak main spring in the event of light primer strikes. With the Main Spring supplied by Uberti, the likelihood of a weak main spring is remote. Instead, the prime use of the adjusting screw is to add tension to a main spring that has been "reduced" and perhaps reduced too much. Some advocate backing the Main Spring Screw out as a means of adjusting main spring tension rather than reducing the spring itself. Not a good idea. Eventually, the screw will strip. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dungannon Gunner Posted February 28, 2015 Author Share Posted February 28, 2015 Thanks Pards! Dang, we have some very knowledgeable folks in CAS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 The short answer is YES. To both. It is intended by design, the Main Spring screw should bring the main spring into contact with the lower tang. Then the smaller front screw is installed until contact with the spring. The adjusting screw is designed to add tension to a weak main spring in the event of light primer strikes. With the Main Spring supplied by Uberti, the likelihood of a weak main spring is remote. Instead, the prime use of the adjusting screw is to add tension to a main spring that has been "reduced" and perhaps reduced too much. Some advocate backing the Main Spring Screw out as a means of adjusting main spring tension rather than reducing the spring itself. Not a good idea. Eventually, the screw will strip. Coffinmaker Sorry but I disagree. I have never know one to strip. Not even the originals. think about it. the hammer spring screw is of the counter sunk design sitting in a counter sunk hole so it can slightly swivel. To adjust, back both front/strain screw and rear hammer spring screw off, then tighten the rear hammer spring screw . Once it bottoms out loosen it about a half turn or so. Now you can use the front/strain screw to lift the spring up to add tension. If the rear is fully tight you won't have much range of adjustment on the front/strain screw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 I have two 73's one is 16 years old and the other is 14 years old and I have both main springs adjusted the way Nate Kiowa Jones explained and all these years I have never striped the screws. If you do it the way Nate Kiowa Jones says you will have no problems. I haven't V.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sam, SASS #34718L Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 The mainspring mounting screw and the mainspring tension screw were designed for two separate and individual purposes. The mounting screw holds the mainspring securely in place! The tension screw allows the user a small range of adjustment to increase the mainspring tension should that become necessary! The mounting screw should ALWAYS be snugly tightened, but never over tightened. just tight enough to to assure that the mainspring does not work itself loose. As long as the mainspring is in good condition and will reliably fire the primers as it was designed to do, then the tension screw should NEVER be tightened any more than just resting against the bottom of the mainspring. It should only be tightened if more tension is needed for the spring to reliably fire the primer. If your '73 is tuned for CAS then most likely you will want the lightest possible resistance in the lever. One way of getting there is by loosening the mainspring mounting screw and tightening the tension screw enough so the mounting screw wont fall out. Lots of people do exactly that................... A better way (in my mind the ONLY way) is to have someone tune the spring that understands how a leaf spring works and is capable of tuning one correctly. That way it can be mounted in the gun the way it was designed to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 The mainspring mounting screw and the mainspring tension screw were designed for two separate and individual purposes. The mounting screw holds the mainspring securely in place! The tension screw allows the user a small range of adjustment to increase the mainspring tension should that become necessary! The mounting screw should ALWAYS be snugly tightened, but never over tightened. just tight enough to to assure that the mainspring does not work itself loose. As long as the mainspring is in good condition and will reliably fire the primers as it was designed to do, then the tension screw should NEVER be tightened any more than just resting against the bottom of the mainspring. It should only be tightened if more tension is needed for the spring to reliably fire the primer. If your '73 is tuned for CAS then most likely you will want the lightest possible resistance in the lever. One way of getting there is by loosening the mainspring mounting screw and tightening the tension screw enough so the mounting screw wont fall out. Lots of people do exactly that................... A better way (in my mind the ONLY way) is to have someone tune the spring that understands how a leaf spring works and is capable of tuning one correctly. That way it can be mounted in the gun the way it was designed to be. It's not designed to be fully tightened. If it were the original Winchester 73's which came with with the extremely heavy hammer springs would have no adjustment at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Reckon I'm with Nate's recommendation on this one.. Rance Thinkin that's the way I was told to do it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Howdy All this is very interesting. With a Smith and Wesson revolver the strain screw is meant to be tightened all the way. It is not meant to be an adjustment screw. With any screw, no matter who made it, the screw is more likely to back out under vibration if the head is not fully snugged down against the hole it sits in. That is the nature of the interference set up between the screw threads and the tapped hole threads when the screw is snugged down all the way and the head is torqued a little bit more. This stretches the screw slightly, creating interference between the screw threads and the tapped hole threads. Did a lot of work with screw threads in a past life. Using Nate's method of tightening the strain screw against the spring will compress the spring slightly, and put some interference between the screw threads and the tapped hole threads, but I do not believe as much as tightening the strain screw head all the way down. But it sounds like Nate's method is the way Winchester did it and they probably figured out something that worked pretty well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Cent Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Way back when, they used to put a piece of leather between the mainspring and the frame of a single action revolver. Having said that, one of my 38 caliber '73s has the mainspring backed out almost all the way. The strain screw is used to get the tension. Yep, I use Federals. This has been this way for over 10 years. IMO, tighten down the mainspring snug and you are stiffening the leaf spring with contact with the tang. Opinion, but it works. Three other 73s attest to the success and longevity of the setup. One '73 in 45 has been used since 2000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 The mainspring mounting screw and the mainspring tension screw were designed for two separate and individual purposes. The mounting screw holds the mainspring securely in place! The tension screw allows the user a small range of adjustment to increase the mainspring tension should that become necessary! The mounting screw should ALWAYS be snugly tightened, but never over tightened. just tight enough to to assure that the mainspring does not work itself loose. As long as the mainspring is in good condition and will reliably fire the primers as it was designed to do, then the tension screw should NEVER be tightened any more than just resting against the bottom of the mainspring. It should only be tightened if more tension is needed for the spring to reliably fire the primer. If your '73 is tuned for CAS then most likely you will want the lightest possible resistance in the lever. One way of getting there is by loosening the mainspring mounting screw and tightening the tension screw enough so the mounting screw wont fall out. Lots of people do exactly that................... A better way (in my mind the ONLY way) is to have someone tune the spring that understands how a leaf spring works and is capable of tuning one correctly. That way it can be mounted in the gun the way it was designed to be. That's the reason J.M. Browning designed the main spring set up the way it is, so you could fine tune it your self ! you can pay a smith then when the spring set starts to go away he's ground off a lot of your adjustment ! then you can take it back to that smith and pay him to fit another spring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 That's the reason J.M. Browning designed the main spring set up the way it is, so you could fine tune it your self ! you can pay a smith then when the spring set starts to go away he's ground off a lot of your adjustment ! then you can take it back to that smith and pay him to fit another spring. Oh, this is too easy. John Browning did not design the Winchester Model '73. The '73 was designed by WInchester engineers. It was an evolutionary advancement from the Henry and WInchester 1866 designs. The 1873 WInchester, complete with its strain screw for the hammer spring, sprang completely out of the fertile brains of the WInchester engineers. The first rifle Browning designed for WInchester was the Model 1885 Single Shot, also known as the High Wall. Browning was actually producing the 1885 design with his brothers when Winchester bought the design patents from him. Browning went on to design the WInchester Models 1886, 1887, 1890, 1892, 1894, 1897 and probably a few others that I have forgotten. But he did not design the 1873. He designed the 1892, basically a scaled down 1886, as a replacement for the 1873. The 1892 was stronger, lighter, and cheaper to produce than the 1873. For what it's worth, the Henry did not have a strain screw for the main spring. I don't know whether the '66 did or not. I had Happy Trails install a strain screw in my Henry because he sometimes tended to lighten the main spring a tad too much. I'm glad I thought of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sam, SASS #34718L Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Like I said... Lots of people do it that way.......... Just because its Easy. But if the spring is properly tuned you dont NEED to play around with the two screws to find the sweet spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Like I said... Lots of people do it that way.......... Just because its Easy. But if the spring is properly tuned you dont NEED to play around with the two screws to find the sweet spot. Dunno if you have ever ground down a spring or not, but it is not an exact science. Happy Trails, on of the best, supplied the springs for my '73 and Henry. As I just said, I am glad I had him add a strain screw to my Henry. I started getting light primer hits, even with Federal primers, so I tightened the strain screw a tad. Works fine now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sam, SASS #34718L Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Lets play a fantasy game for just a minute............... Lets say its about 1870 and you work at the Winchester Firearms Co. no big military contracts on the horizon, but we need to boost Sales. The model 1866 is a great rifle, but just how can we make it better ??????? OK, lets look at the letters we get from our customers........ hummm, boy howdy some of these folks are in some extreme conditions and they're using Our guns to protect their lives. I'm seeing a pattern here, the guns are getting sun baked, frozen, full of dirt and dust which sometimes makes them not fire when a life is depending on it, Thats Not Good. How bout we make the frame out of some of that new fangled steel stuff I'm hearing about, and we can add a Dust Cover over the top of the frame to help keep some of that crud from gumming up the works.... and we'll put in a heavier mainspring, NO Ever Better we'll add a tension screw just a tad in front of the mounting screw, that way the user can very easily increase the power of the mainspring if necessary. OR Same scenario..... Hummmm what to do...... Lets add a tension screw next to the mainspring mounting screw and tell our customers to loosen up the mounting screw and then fiddle with the tension screw until the gun will actually fire. Which do YOU think actually happened ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Lets play a fantasy game for just a minute............... Lets say its about 1870 and you work at the Winchester Firearms Co. no big military contracts on the horizon, but we need to boost Sales. The model 1866 is a great rifle, but just how can we make it better ??????? OK, lets look at the letters we get from our customers........ hummm, boy howdy some of these folks are in some extreme conditions and they're using Our guns to protect their lives. I'm seeing a pattern here, the guns are getting sun baked, frozen, full of dirt and dust which sometimes makes them not fire when a life is depending on it, Thats Not Good. How bout we make the frame out of some of that new fangled steel stuff I'm hearing about, and we can add a Dust Cover over the top of the frame to help keep some of that crud from gumming up the works.... and we'll put in a heavier mainspring, NO Ever Better we'll add a tension screw just a tad in front of the mounting screw, that way the user can very easily increase the power of the mainspring if necessary. OR Same scenario..... Hummmm what to do...... Lets add a tension screw next to the mainspring mounting screw and tell our customers to loosen up the mounting screw and then fiddle with the tension screw until the gun will actually fire. Which do YOU think actually happened ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? Again, there is no way to adjust an original hammer spring if it is fully tightened down. It's just too stiff for the strain screw to add any flex to it. The hammer spring screw and the hole in the lower tang are designed so it can slightly swivel. But, if the screw is fully tightened there is no way the strain screw can have any effect on the spring. I'm convinced they did this because of the different, harder to ignite ammo primer's of the day. This was a transition era for ammo primers. Much of the ammo of the day was an american designed Benet internal primer. BENET-PRIMED - A common style of inside-primed car-tridge developed by Col. S.V Benet commander of Frankford Arsenal in the late 1860s. It was used extensively in early U.S. military ammunition. A copper or iron cup was secured inside the head of the case by characteristic crimps. This cup served as an anvil to enable the firing pin to activate the priming mixture and also to reinforce the head of the case. The most common external primers were another American design, the Berdan primers. Both required heavy hammer springs. Todays most common primer, the english design more sensitive Boxer had not yet made any inroads in the USA until the late 1880's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sam, SASS #34718L Posted February 28, 2015 Share Posted February 28, 2015 Again, there is no way to adjust an original hammer spring if it is fully tightened down. It's just too stiff for the strain screw to add any flex to it. The hammer spring screw and the hole in the lower tang are designed so it can slightly swivel. But, if the screw is fully tightened there is no way the strain screw can have any effect on the spring. I own 4 original 1873's a 1st model, a 2nd model and two 3rd models. Three are untouched, one is slicked up for CAS. Even 2 of the untouched ones I have shot in CAS. On all of them with the original untouched mainsprings snugged down firmly, when the hammer is in the down position I can turn the tension screw in and it increases the tension on the spring, you can easily feel the increased resistance in the hammer. But If the Hammer is in the back position with the lever open, the tension screw cannot be turned, in the down, forward or rested position it can be. There is not much adjustment in the screw, but as long as the spring is not completely shot, it does'nt take much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Howdy Nate Although 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, and 45-70 were originally primed with Benet priming, 44-40, the original cartridge of the Winchester 1873, never was. As a matter of fact, I seem to remember when the cartridge was introduced in 1873 it was Boxer primed. Not certain about that, trying to find a reference. But I am quite sure 44-40 was never Benet primed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I own 4 original 1873's a 1st model, a 2nd model and two 3rd models. Three are untouched, one is slicked up for CAS. Even 2 of the untouched ones I have shot in CAS. On all of them with the original untouched mainsprings snugged down firmly, when the hammer is in the down position I can turn the tension screw in and it increases the tension on the spring, you can easily feel the increased resistance in the hammer. But If the Hammer is in the back position with the lever open, the tension screw cannot be turned, in the down, forward or rested position it can be. There is not much adjustment in the screw, but as long as the spring is not completely shot, it does'nt take much. Sam, I've been working these old guns for 25 years. I can't begin to tell you how many I've owned myself and rebuilt for other folk. So tell me, how do you turn the strain screw with the lever in the up position. Your method is probably why I see some many of them with the strain screw all boogered up for not having the screwdriver straight in the slot because the lever is in the way. Sam, think about, do you really think they would set these up to be adjusted like that and for so little adjustment it's barely perceptible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Howdy Nate Although 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, and 45-70 were originally primed with Benet priming, 44-40, the original cartridge of the Winchester 1873, never was. As a matter of fact, I seem to remember when the cartridge was introduced in 1873 it was Boxer primed. Not certain about that, trying to find a reference. But I am quite sure 44-40 was never Benet primed. DJ, you may be correct, but Boxer primers were still relatively new. The US patent wasn't until 1869. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 In all the years I built competition toggle link rifles (I've retired), I never opened up a new rifle from Uberti with slack in the main spring screw. Most all the rifles I worked on, that had been piddled with and the main spring screw backed off, the exposed threads of the screw were buggered. Because a simple method to achieve an end often works, It doesn't necessarily make it the "best" way to do it. There is also the problem of the movement of the spring causing the screw to back out even more than intended. Uberti intended for the screw to be snug with the lower tang. I've always done it that way and then tuned the spring to work. Preferably to work with any primer. The original design of the Henry and the '66 did not include a screw to secure the spring. There was a boss cast into the lower tang with a slot the spring slid back into. The '73 introduced the mounting screw for the main spring. As has been mentioned, screws were intended to be tight to be properly secure. Obviously, there are some differences of opinion as to what is "correct." It's a lot like asking two lawyers a question and getting five answers. I try not to answer based on the one or two guns I own, but on the several hundred I've built. If one wants to "get away" with a lose main spring screw, go for it. I just would never sell a product that way. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Just 'cause I'm in the mood to be contrary tonight, Henry rifles, The 1866, and the 1876, all had a boss in the bottom tang with a slot for the main spring and all had a main spring tension adjusting screw. The 1873 introduced the thru tang screw to secure the main spring to the lower tang. That screw was delivered from the factory tight. The spring itself, was heavy, because at the time, metallurgy wasn't at the stage it is today, and the springs were twice as thick at the base as todays springs and were very likely to "take a set." With the lever open just enough for the firing pin to contact the hammer, the tension screw was very adjustable. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sam, SASS #34718L Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Nate as just about everyone knows, especially the people that make short stroke kits, there is a lot of slop in a Winchester toggle link action, the lever can move over an inch before the bolt starts moving back, so there is plenty of room to get a screwdriver in there and turn the tension screw. Nate, You think about it, do you really think that Winchester would have shipped rifles out to the Frontier with loose mounting screws on the mainspring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 I think you had too many worn out 73's. I've worked some 90% and better originals and there is just not enough lateral play in the levers to do that. Again,the countersunk design of the mounting screws and the lower tang are made so the mounting screw can move. Once the strain screw is run up then the mounting screw is tight. Do you think they would design it with a countersunk screw and hole and not use it? Ask yourself, which setup will give the most adjustment. CC you are correct, Uberti runs them up tight. But that doesn't mean they got it right. Mechanically the only way to get any useful adjustment from the strain screw the mounting screw has to start out slightly loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Cent Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 Outside of the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Cent Posted March 1, 2015 Share Posted March 1, 2015 It occurs to me that besides changing the position of the main and strain screws on the '73, we make the trigger one piece, straighten the trigger, short stroke the rifle, change out the lifter and lever springs, switch to an aluminum lifter, insert a sleeve in the 38 tube, mill out weight under the forearm, change the front sight, bend the lever, weld up certain spots, go to a coil spring main spring, and there is probably more. SASS, IDPA, USPSA, and other disciplines are the NASCAR of firearms. Ain't nothin' wrong with innovation when it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted March 2, 2015 Share Posted March 2, 2015 The mistake many of us (I include me in this too) make, it to answer a question from a newbie, as if they have been playing this game and piddling with their guns as long as we have. If we tell them a short cut, and it doesn't work out the way we intend, they (the newbie) don't know enough about how the gun is suppose to be, to get it back to zero, to start over. That can get expensive for the newbie to fix. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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