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Guess that new Marine 1911 isn't so great after all...


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BM-The 1911 fits my hands better and I have trained with the 1911(Gunsite).

Of the 'plastic' handguns. The only one I carry is an H&K, USP compac in .45acp.

That new S&W looks pretty good and my SIL was issued one for 'work'.

OLG

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Someday you guys will realize how much more superior the Glock is to the 1911.

 

 

 

That day ain't coming no time soon.

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E. I smell a rat.

 

 

 

+1

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All the black plastic shooter types that come in the gunshop/range I work at part time are totally amazed when they shoot a 1911 for the first time. We usually have a couple for rent. After they shoot a 1911 at least half of them wind with one or two. I've shot Glocks and owned a few and they're okay, easy to take apart and clean but for me they're boxy, kinda ugly and I don't like the trigger. I'd take a 1911 anyday!

I find my Glocks to be more practical than a 1911. They are ugly and do not feel right at first. Aside from hunting, I don't like to carry a weapon, PERIOD, concealed or open, but particularly dislike the 1911 for carry of any sort. Too cumbersome. A S&W 642 is more to my liking.

I do have to say, the trigger is sooo much better on the 1911. I did enjoy shooting mine (RIA GI), but have to say I enjoy shooting the Glock 17 I traded it for more.

I'll get another 1911 someday, probably a Springfield, possibly a commander......well after I get a good medium bore bolt rifle.

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I never could quite understand the saying,,,, it (pistol) just feels better in my hand. Every gun style is different and is usually very easy for me to adapt too. A Ruger Vaquero, Ruger Bisley, Single-Sixes, S&W J/L/K/N frames, Colts revolvers/semi's, big/little frame , big/small grips, Glocks, S&W semi's and the like all have a bit different feel, but easy enough for me to adapt too. The difference for me is where the buttons, switches, levers are located and how easy/hard are they to operate being left handed.Most of the time, the firearms buttons/levers can be operated or modified being left handed.,,, or not used at all. For a Glock and some other plastic guns, in a gun fight situation, draw the firearm, aim and start pulling the trigger. About as simple as it gets.

 

The hard part is counting the rounds expended. Was that ten rounds? or was it thirteen? or was it seventeen? :lol: How lucky do you feel punk? ;) Of course, it can be just six cause I may be shooting a revolver.

 

happy trails. Shoot what works for you.

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The key to the "feels better in my hand" phrase is My.

Hands are different. Some guns just have a nice feel in my hand. SAA and Lugers are near the top. Pointability is a big factor. I am competent with a Glock 21 but a 1911 has the feel good factor. PPK feels good to me. An Astra 60 does not.

The "feel" doesn't really have anything to do with the function.

Maybe it's a Zen thing. :)

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Well lessee....if you use a high thumb grip on a 1911 (thumb on top of the safety like Jeff Cooper taught) sometimes with an UNMODIFIED STOCK grip safety, that could happen because when you hold yer thumb in that position, a little hollow opens up right at the base (lower end) of the grip safety. Now, look at them pictures of the USMC 1911 in this thread. Look at the bottom of the grip safety and take note of the thick extry pad at the bottom of the grip safety. That there is new, last few years to correct just such a problem. Weren't on no WWII or GI 1911's and as I recall, none of us'n had ANY problem getting our 1911's to work back in the day when I carried 1911's along with my compadres...

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I never could quite understand the saying,,,, it (pistol) just feels better in my hand. Every gun style is different and is usually very easy for me to adapt too. A Ruger Vaquero, Ruger Bisley, Single-Sixes, S&W J/L/K/N frames, Colts revolvers/semi's, big/little frame , big/small grips, Glocks, S&W semi's and the like all have a bit different feel, but easy enough for me to adapt too. The difference for me is where the buttons, switches, levers are located and how easy/hard are they to operate being left handed.Most of the time, the firearms buttons/levers can be operated or modified being left handed.,,, or not used at all. For a Glock and some other plastic guns, in a gun fight situation, draw the firearm, aim and start pulling the trigger. About as simple as it gets.

 

The hard part is counting the rounds expended. Was that ten rounds? or was it thirteen? or was it seventeen? :lol: How lucky do you feel punk? ;) Of course, it can be just six cause I may be shooting a revolver.

 

happy trails. Shoot what works for you.

You never count rounds fired in a gunfight. That is urban BS at it's very worst. You don't have time to do such and it may well get you killed PDQ.

That's why you learn to reload after first encounter, so you don't get caught 'empty-handed'.

This work'd for me in the 2 gunfights I have been involved in, and I'm still above ground.

OLG

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The key to the "feels better in my hand" phrase is My.

Hands are different. Some guns just have a nice feel in my hand. SAA and Lugers are near the top. Pointability is a big factor. I am competent with a Glock 21 but a 1911 has the feel good factor. PPK feels good to me. An Astra 60 does not.

The "feel" doesn't really have anything to do with the function.

Maybe it's a Zen thing. :)

Must be a Zen thing.

 

Self defense situations are close and quick, or so I am told.

 

21 feet or less? Three seconds or less? No time for sight alignment?

 

Dependability, realiability, function and simplicity of operation of selected firearm would be utmost IMHO. For a self defense gun, I should add.

 

Now if it (firearm) has a complete customized hand wrap around grip, with thumb holes and such that works for your weak hand as sometimes seen on target guns, now that could be problematic shooting it with your strong hand.

 

Of course, if you can not identify and bond with the firearm, for whatever reason, then take a pass and move on to another firearm.

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I prefer the S&W M&P to the Glock. I have a M&P compact 9, that's a great shooter and feels so much more comfortable in my hand. :D It's the only black plastic gun I have.

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You never count rounds fired in a gunfight. That is urban BS at it's very worst. You don't have time to do such and it may well get you killed PDQ.

That's why you learn to reload after first encounter, so you don't get caught 'empty-handed'.

This work'd for me in the 2 gunfights I have been involved in, and I'm still above ground.

OLG

It was a poke at humor. Dirty Harry if you need a reminder.

 

With a 1911, you have 7-8 shots before you reach the end of your capacity and hopefully, you have completed your 'first encounter"; OR NOT! Good stratigy says to have a reload, how may carry a reload?. How long to reload? With plastic gun, you have more capacity with one magazine to extend your first encounter (multi perps),,,, some times one plastic gun magazine capacity is equvalent to two 1911's.,, and more time to decide when to reload or stop. Hmmm, a decisive advantage?

 

 

You never answered my question on how reliable your Glocks are in comparison to your 1911's.

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I prefer the S&W M&P to the Glock. I have a M&P compact 9, that's a great shooter and feels so much more comfortable in my hand. :D It's the only black plastic gun I have.

S&W Shield 9 is a fine gun. Single stack makes it thinner, which equals comfort. I prefer the Shield 40 over the Shield 9. seven 40cal bullets trumps eight 9mm's. Glock 26 or 27 is a fraction of and inch wider, both have more capacity. Glock/S&W double stack is superior if wearing more loose fitting cloths or cover.

 

Edit, perhaps you are speaking of something other than the shield. Good enough.

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For CCW, I carry at least 1 reload.

My 1911's and Glocks and Sigs and H&Ks and Berettas work every time I pull the trigger.

If they didn't-I wouldn't own'em.

I have put more rounds through a 1911 than all others combined. Multiple classes at Gunsite. The 1911 fits MY hand, and muscle memory is there.

 

So, with all of this knowledge you put forth, I ask you this.

How many encounters have you had(returned fire type)and where did you train?

Me, 2-Both with a 1911. First, 6 rnds fired on one subject. Second, 11 rounds on 2 subjects that I fired(others where also firing).

OLG

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1911 platform.. 8+1

S&W-M&P platform...10+1

Glock G21 platform...13+1

 

Presuming all are equally reliable, and you said yours were, the plastic guns have an advantage.

 

In your two encounters, you could have finished both encounters without a reload if you had trained/carried with a plastic gun.

 

Training at Gunsite or any where else? If you had went through the course with a plastic gun, you would have been just as proficient. Muscle memory is just trigger/range time. Muscle memory fades if you do not practice on a regular bases. It shouldn't be too monumental to change from one platform to another.

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One of my officers was involved in a shooting and fired 9 rounds from his .357. In the investigation I asked him how many he though he fired. "3 I think, or 4", he said. Never remembered reloading.

I know that with an M16 in a firefight, you shoot till it stops and then reload, or reload when there's a lull in the shooting. At least, that was my technique. ;)

 

I think you can count rounds if yore in a tank.

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1911 platform.. 8+1

S&W-M&P platform...10+1

Glock G21 platform...13+1

 

Presuming all are equally reliable, and you said yours were, the plastic guns have an advantage.

 

In your two encounters, you could have finished both encounters without a reload if you had trained/carried with a plastic gun.

 

Training at Gunsite or any where else? If you had went through the course with a plastic gun, you would have been just as proficient. Muscle memory is just trigger/range time. Muscle memory fades if you do not practice on a regular bases. It shouldn't be too monumental to change from one platform to another.

You don't get it-You reload after each exchange. Neither were just one encounter deals. In my second shooting-I was on my 3rd mag. Don't care what the mag capacity is. You have no clue how many rounds you have fired till the smoke clears.

Now, why don't you answer MY question to you, about your training and encounters. <_<

With your 'thoughts' and theories. One would be better off with somedangthing that's belt-fed- :wacko:

I used a gun that I carried before the 'tupperware' guns ever came out ;)

" It shouldn't be too monumental to change from one platform to another."

 

Why would I change 'platforms'? I have 110% confidence in my 1911's. I'll be 64 in March, been working with a 1911 for over 40 yrs. So yeah, it would be 'monumental' to retrain this old 'horse'.

If I want higher capacity-I'll carry my Browning Hi-Power. I just don't like the 9mm for SD is all.

OLG

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The key to the "feels better in my hand" phrase is My.

 

The "feel" doesn't really have anything to do with the function.

Maybe it's a Zen thing. :)

Yah. Have fired both and like the Glock, but like my Colt better. It's simple, I understand how it works and trust it defending my life and loved ones.

 

Maybe it's feng shui? :)

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You don't get it-You reload after each exchange. Neither were just one encounter deals. In my second shooting-I was on my 3rd mag. Don't care what the mag capacity is. You have no clue how many rounds you have fired till the smoke clears.

Now, why don't you answer MY question to you, about your training and encounters. <_<

With your 'thoughts' and theories. One would be better off with somedangthing that's belt-fed- :wacko:

I used a gun that I carried before the 'tupperware' guns ever came out ;)

" It shouldn't be too monumental to change from one platform to another."

Why would I change 'platforms'? I have 110% confidence in my 1911's. I'll be 64 in March, been working with a 1911 for over 40 yrs. So yeah, it would be 'monumental' to retrain this old 'horse'.

If I want higher capacity-I'll carry my Browning Hi-Power. I just don't like the 9mm for SD is all.

OLG

 

Hmmm, shoot three times, reload, shoots 2 times, reload, shoot 4times reload, shot three times, uphs out of magazines.

 

So, as a civilian now, with your muscle memory trained up and can not change, you shoot a string, change magazines, shoot again, and push mag release button, ummm, you don't have another magazine cause you just went through your one spare, you now have an empty gun. Is that what you are saying?

 

Took classes but nothing as flashy as Gunsite... no encounters. Did sleep at the Holiday Inn Express, that is another joke.

 

I've shot more through my single action Rugers OMV than all my other guns combined, but I can switch back to a plastic gun or double action revolver rather easily. I too have been working with guns for 40years, but have stayed proficient with all styles.

 

Hey, if the 8+1 1911 works for you, go for it. If someoneelse prefers a 5+1 1911, then good for them.

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Real world encounters, out weigh 'theory'.

When I say 'reload'. I never abandoned a magazine.

What so called training class taught you to NOT keep the used mag? :rolleyes:

 

Tell you what-Talk to others that are gunfight survivors. See how your 'expertise' holds with them. :lol:

I'm done---

OLG

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Guess again,

 

Tactical reloads work on plastic guns too. Same mag button release location, same mag well opening to hit, remove/replace mag procedure process, same same. So if shooter can do it with a 1911, then should be able to do it equally well with plastic gun. Back to my original point.

 

Two encounters in 40 years makes one an expert? Or was just lucky? And how much practice per week/month/year does typical LE officers do to keep proficient? Good you make it out alive. Thank you for your LE service.

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$22.5 million for 10k pistols is $2250 each!

I believe in ours being the best equipped soldiers, marines, sailors and airmen, but Does anyone else see a problem with this?

How about a $1000 1911 with some features and an extra $1250 of training?

I think the contract not only calls for the 10K pistols but enough parts to rebuild 10K pistols from frame up several times as they wear and tear during combat. With extra barrels, slides, springs, grips, internal parts, etc, the price for the pistol is probably in the 1,00 to 1,500 range which is about par for the course for a semi-custom 1911 these days.

 

I'm not a Glock fan and do not own a single one. If my boat hadn't turned over in that lake a while back, I would have had a couple 1911's. However, if I still had any pistols after the tragic boating incident, the one I would have been carrying would have been the S&W Shield. I can understand the desire for the Glock although I still consider the 1911 to be a better platform.

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I'm offerin' $50 each on them thar no good 1911's that the Marine's ain't wantin' to use... ...let me have 4 or 6 or so, and I'm bettin' that I kin get a good one outa the batch... ;)

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One of my officers was involved in a shooting and fired 9 rounds from his .357. In the investigation I asked him how many he though he fired. "3 I think, or 4", he said. Never remembered reloading.

I know that with an M16 in a firefight, you shoot till it stops and then reload, or reload when there's a lull in the shooting. At least, that was my technique. ;)

 

I think you can count rounds if yore in a tank.

... bein' Armored Cav in a past life, wasn't one to count rounds in tanks either (that bein' 120mm, 50 cal, or 7.62mm in the M240's )...you just don't count your money until the dealin' iz done... ...or so I wuz taught by my master gunner...

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S&W Shield 9 is a fine gun. Single stack makes it thinner, which equals comfort. I prefer the Shield 40 over the Shield 9. seven 40cal bullets trumps eight 9mm's. Glock 26 or 27 is a fraction of and inch wider, both have more capacity. Glock/S&W double stack is superior if wearing more loose fitting cloths or cover.

 

Edit, perhaps you are speaking of something other than the shield. Good enough.

I have the M&P compact 9, it's a slightly bigger frame than the Shield and takes 12 rounds of 9mm. It's a great gun!

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I have the M&P compact 9, it's a slightly bigger frame than the Shield and takes 12 rounds of 9mm. It's a great gun!

Thank you. I suspected/realized you were talking about something other than the Shield after I hit the first send button.

 

S&W M&P series seem to be fine,reliable guns(my box stock Shield is) and are in the polymer material (plastic) category.

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Someday you guys will realize how much more superior the Glock is to the 1911.

 

lolol, I once had a Sgt Major who told me "the only people that carry plastic pistols are whimps, pimps and those that have alternate lifestyles"! And Sgt Majors don't lie!!!

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It's all in the training. I had some female officrs who had difficulty initially with the 9mm and 45 Glocks. With proper instruction they were able to perform on an equal level with the men.

Bob is spot on

Working the range with recruits, we have had no issues with the smaller females using the glock 21 Gen 4. We could also teach them to be very proficient with the 1911....like Bob said, it's all in the training. .the average scores on the state quals actually went up when we switched from the 40s to the 45s..from what I understand, the marsoc g us are going to the glock 19...you might be surprised how many glocks are already being used over there by the spec ops . community. .

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History shows that we must be populated with a majority of poor trainers that train the trainers that train the instructors that train the newbies in about any subject matter. Lets stick with firearms for this discussion.

 

Hasn't the vast majority of Military branches (foreign & domestic) and LE agencies switched back to the 9mm for a sidearm rather than 'train up' to the larger and more effective 4x caliber?

 

Which makes me ask/wonder, what do the Communist countries (Russia, China, N. Korea) do for military/LE sidearms? Steel or polymer guns?

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As to the question of capacity, my 1911s hold 14 and 15 rounds of .45 respectively. The grip is perfect for my big ham hands, there is a half cock safety, and the Para Ordinace trigger is one of the best in the industry straight from the factory. The one piece barrel and feed ramp lets them eat anything I chose to feed them. Lots of research and testing involved in finding just the right sidearm for me.

 

Glock is a good weapon, but it'll take much modification for me to feel as confident and comfortable carrying one. Superior?? Not lately........

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As to the question of capacity, my 1911s hold 14 and 15 rounds of .45 respectively. The grip is perfect for my big ham hands, there is a half cock safety, and the Para Ordinace trigger is one of the best in the industry straight from the factory. The one piece barrel and feed ramp lets them eat anything I chose to feed them. Lots of research and testing involved in finding just the right sidearm for me.

 

Glock is a good weapon, but it'll take much modification for me to feel as confident and comfortable carrying one. Superior?? Not lately........

I can respect your choice. A person may live or die by his choices and only he can make the call. Double stack 1911 I believe. Key words I see is 'Lots of research and testing involved...' ya did your homework.

More suitable for home/vehicle carry I would think, but if you're a big fellow, then can carry on body. Same statement for the full size polymer framed 45's.

 

I don't understand your statement about 'much modification for me...' do you mean the Glock would take much modification? or yourself?

 

I agree, a full size Polymer gun isn't necessarily superior to an equally sized frame and capacity steel (1911) gun. The Poly gun would be lighter and usually less expensive that a comparable steel 1911. That would be some Brownie points in favor to.

 

I believe a G21-13rd 45acp mag will work in a G30 gun that uses a standard 10rd flush magazine. Hmmmm, a 13rd reload option if you choose the compact sized firearm and more concealabie Glock 30. Just a thought.

 

As a side note, a polymer gun is usually less expensive to build, thus you can supply more guns to an agency/army for a given expenditure of money. That is an advantage or superior? LOL But that is beyond this scope of conversation.

 

Good shooting to you all.

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Befire we go too far afield I think the initial post was about the USMC allowing their MARSOC people to choose a 9mm Glock over the 45.

I maintain that the issue is not the guns but the human factor and I'll stick to that.

As for the 9mm but 45 debate that has raged for a century, I've carried both and never felt outgunned. I think I understand why the young Marines want a Hicap 9 and I suspect it's maybe more cultural than tactical.

Magazine capacity for a pistol in a military role is not terribly important as pistols are not used very often. They are a back up and special purpose weapon. The rifle's the thing.

Not really sure why the Marines needed so many of them of them anyway. They don't have that many MARSOC troops.

 

But Officers are authorized pistols. And what officer wouldn't want to carry the cool looking thing? ;)

 

And I wonder if they'll change the color if we get involved in a nice green, wooded battle arena next?

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Befire we go too far afiels I thuin k the initial post was about the USMC allowing their MARSOC people to choose a 9mm Glock over the 45.

I maintain that the issue is not the guns but the human factor and I'll stick to that.

As for the 9mm but 45 debate that has raged for a century, I've carried both and never felt outgunned. I think I understand why the young Marines want a Hicap 9 and I suspect it's maybe more cultural than tactical.

Magazine capacity for a pistol in a military role is not terribly important as pistols are not used very often. They are a back up and special purpose weapon. The rifle's the thing.

Not really sure why the Marines needed so many of them of them anyway. They don't have that many MARSOC troops.

 

But Officers are authorized pistols. And what officer wouldn't want to carry the cool looking thing? ;)

 

And I wonder if they'll change the color if we get involved in a nice green, wooded battle arena next?

 

:D It's a Wire thang

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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