Chili Pepper Pete 11917 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 The SASS rules state that Frontiersman must be shot with a .36 Cal or larger pistol. Assuming I can get it to shoot straight and not have the bullets fall out of the cylinder, Would it be legal to shoot standard .357 bullets. Please note that this post is not about the potential problems that may be incurred, just the legality Thank you in advance, Chili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I don't see why they wouldn't be legal but I loaded .357 balls in a .1851 Navy one time and when I holstered it at the loading table the balls dropped out! My pard Marcus Allen was standing next to me and said, "Rye, I think ya need bigger balls"!! You probably know you need .375 balls right? Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Pepper Pete 11917 Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 Rye, I too hate when my balls fall out in front of my friends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Ringer Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Ya...that's domething You don't really want to hear! Regards, Ringer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michigan Slim Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Brain bleach! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Rye, I too hate when my balls fall out in front of my friends Ya...that's domething You don't really want to hear! Regards, Ringer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shifty Jack, SASS #65353 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 What you need! http://leeprecision.com/mold-d-c-375-130-1r.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Pepper Pete 11917 Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 Or See, EVER!!! Thanks, Jack, what I'm thinking about doing is setting up a .36 Cal navy pistol to shoot standard .357 cast bullets. but before I waste a lot of brain energy figuring it out I need to make sure the premise is legal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 You could argue it's the caliber of the pistol that's regulated, not the bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Pepper Pete 11917 Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 You could argue that, but by changing the bore diameter, you are in fact changing the cal. of the pistol right? I'd rather make sure its legal before I spend time and money making something I cant use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 A Frontiersman can use a rifle that shoots .38 Specials and those bullets mike out at .357. It's gonna be interesting to see the rules committee outlaw a bullet that is already being used in the category. I think the ".36" requirement is there to prevent .32s being used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Or See, EVER!!! Thanks, Jack, what I'm thinking about doing is setting up a .36 Cal navy pistol to shoot standard .357 cast bullets. but before I waste a lot of brain energy figuring it out I need to make sure the premise is legal. Probably nothing wrong with patching them into the cylinder (paper, thin cloth), like a musket ball, but why bother? Is it that you have a large supply of these smaller bullets? If you're intending to cast new ones, it's not that much of a leap to find and use the correct caliber ball or bullet mold. Why do you want to use the smaller caliber bullets? Ease of loading the cylinders? If so, it increase chances of crossfire unless you grease the cylinder face well. Just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Patching projectiles in a revolver may not be a good idea...patch material remaining in the barrel might act as an obstruction. I don't think I would want to be the one to test the idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Pepper Pete 11917 Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 Three reasons actually, First, I think it would be wicked cool to have a pair of Ruger Old Navies. Secondly I already load 38s in other guns. Third, I like the idea of using a hard cast bullet, soft lead sometimes doesn't ring loud enough for some spotters. I know it may not make a lot of sense but the idea sounds feasible and I can do most of the work my self so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Why?? Because it would be cool and different. That alone is reason enough. Custom and cool guns have really disappeared from the game since i started. Rugers, Whatever wiz bang short stroke 73' is being talked about the most and whatever shotgun somebody happens to be winning with at the time.......blah....and boring. Chili and I spent many many hours in Fireballs shop and many many cases of beer coming up and executing cool gun projects, at the time it was like monster garage for cowboy guns. I really miss that. I have fallen in shooting the same old stuff every match as well. I am going to make it a point to shoot some of my other stuff this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Pepper Pete 11917 Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 I have a Dremel tool and a mill and I aint afraid to use them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 A hard cast bullet in a C&B - not usually done. You will want to watch for the following problems: C&Bs seal the front end of the cylinder by seating the soft ball so that a ring of lead shaves off the soft ball. A hard cast (say, Brinell hardnesss of 12 or more) projectile, whether it is a round ball or like you want to do, a grease-grooved bullet, will be almost impossible with hand seating tools to shave off lead and get a good seal. That will possibly lead to having chain fires which can be pretty dangerous, with bullets bouncing off the frame in several directions. A hard cast bullet needs about 12,000 PSI to start to bump up (obdurate) and fit the barrel well. C&Bs run about 8,000 PSI maximum. You are not on a course for good accuracy. Even light bullets will be longer in length than a round ball. That may be a good thing, but watch to make sure that you can seat the bullet far enough in to let cylinder rotate. Sound interesting, but not all that feasible. Good luck, GJ PS - as to legality. The Rules committee would have to OK this mod, I would think, as it is more than just an internal tuning or parts replacement. The "caliber" of what you would be creating would be open to interpretation of whether you are still complying with the "minimum of 36 caliber" as defined by C&B guns. C&B caliber is the bore diameter, whereas a .357 modern gun is a groove diameter. I would think it would be "close enough", but I'm not the one you have to convince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Pepper Pete 11917 Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 Thanks for the insight Joe, I've been shooting Frontiersman for 10 plus years so I understand what your saying... The front end is not a problem since I use a wonder wad between the bullet and powder to act as lube and seal to protect from chain fire. Not sure about the pressure thing, The barrel will either be a .357 Ruger take off or a barrel liner so I'm not sure how that would be any different then a cartridge gun with black powder loads. If you could explain the difference I would be much obliged. I can't imagine that a 7" loading lever wont give me enough leverage to seat a hard cast bullet but it is something that may have to be addressed. I need just enough tension to hold the bullets while firing the other chambers. Also I'm not so much worried about the lightness of the bullet but more the shape for seating purposes. Thanks again for the thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cat Brules Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Practicality being perhaps last on your list of considerations, the safety of those around you and only then, yourselves, should probably factor in as considerations numbers one and two. :-) :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Safery is always a concern. For example I'm reading this thread with a aluminum foil hat on so "they" can't intercept my brainwaves. Personslly I'd be more concerned with a conversion cylinder on a brass framed butter soft Italian repro and we see that all the time. We are talking BP here. And I don't think everyone is going to gradp exsctly what Chili wants to do here, but thats ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michigan Slim Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I think the phrase that is the scariest is "what Chili wants to do"........ It might keep me up at night in worry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Pepper Pete 11917 Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 Dear Cat Brules, I am at a loss to understand what part of this is unsafe to myself or others. I'm talking about relining a barrel and sleeving the cylinders on the most robust cap and ball pistol ever made. How would this be "UNSAFE" As to the practicality, What I do with my time and my money is.... My Business All I wanted to know is " is it legal to shoot .357 bullets in Frontiersman? That's it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Pepper Pete 11917 Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 Chili doesn't always know what chili wants to do. The voices tell Chili what he needs to know. Slim I wouldn't let little ole me keep you up at night, All those allegations were unfounded and charges were dropped do to lack of living witnesses So its all good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michigan Slim Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Anything I've seen or heard are inadmissible. The witnesses were in an unreliable state at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Pepper Pete 11917 Posted February 19, 2015 Author Share Posted February 19, 2015 Amen ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I know of a set of ROAs that have been rebarreled and relined for 36 cal balls. To go to 357 would be going out side of the rules that say main match pistols have to be 36 or 44. The rules have to do with the pistols not the rifle so any main match rifle is legal as long as it is firing black powder. I shoot 32-20 in rifle with my 44 or 36 cal pistols. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Ooopps got my ball diameters mixed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 FRONTIERSMAN Any Main Match percussion revolver with non-adjustable sights (Note exceptions listed re: dovetailed sights). (Exception: The 1873 Uberti percussion revolver is not allowed.) Revolvers must be shot duelist or double duelist style. See Duelist description for required shooting technique. Must use blackpowder in all loads (rifle, revolver, and shotgun). Must use a side-by-side, single shot, or lever action shotgun in the main match stages. Any SASS–legal pistol caliber rifle is acceptable. No caliber requirement that I can see! Rye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Have to disagree. Where in the rule book does it say it has to be .36 and .44? Here's the rules for main match revolvers from page 10 of the Shooter's Handbook: REVOLVER CALIBERS • Must be centerfire calibers of at least .32 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber or percussion calibers of at least .36 caliber and no larger than .45 caliber. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michigan Slim Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 As correctly stated in original post. Don't .357 round up to .36? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 As correctly stated in original post. Don't .357 round up to .36? As stated in #17, .36 bore diameter may not, in the eyes of the rules committee, equal .357 groove diameter. I would expect it, but not bet much on it. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Chilli are you planning on building a new cylinder so that the .357 ammo will be tight? Or are you just gonna patch them? I'm too am worried about the safety of the gun. If it's because the .357 ammo can be bought in bulk verses the .375 round balls and sabots in hundred round packages. I was hating to buy the hundred round boxes but finally found .457 round balls in bulk for some one back in the fall. Maybe you can find a bulk supply of .375 ammo? Now if it is to be different you would need to have it pass the roc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Here's the rules for main match revolvers from page 10 of the Shooter's Handbook: Good luck, GJ Was getting my ball diameter mixed up, .36 is 375 my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 Not legal per the rules. He is not talking about patching the bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Scratch Posted February 19, 2015 Share Posted February 19, 2015 I hate it when I get my balls mixed up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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