Big Sarge Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I received this alert from the NRA ILA. True or not, I might order a few thousand rounds just to be on the safe side. In a move clearly intended by the Obama Administration to suppress the acquisition, ownership and use of AR-15s and other .223 caliber general purpose rifles, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives unexpectedly announced today that it intends to ban commonplace M855 ball ammunition as “armor piercing ammunition.” The decision continues Obama’s use of his executive authority to impose gun control restrictions and bypass Congress. Link to comment
Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I read the same alert... actually, it was one part of a multi-part communique. My first thought was that it raises some very interesting issues for those of us in California, as we are now required to use solid copper or bronze bullets for hunting - lead or jacketed lead core ammunition is now illegal. However, as I read more on the subject, it seems that the M855 ammunition has steel-core bullets... hence the "armor piercing" claim. So now I'm wondering not only if this will affect us, but also what other caliber steel-core ammunition might be commonly shot at ranges (already forbidden at many ranges due to fire danger). If you want to put on a fresh pot o' coffee and take the time, here's some introductory reading: ATF Framework For Determining Whether Certain Projectiles Are Primarily Intended For Sporting Purposes I'd not recommend reading near bedtime - fascinating stuff, but a sure cure for insomnia. Link to comment
Boon Doggle Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Right now it looks like the Anointed One, and the rest of the gun grabbers are only going after M855 ammo. That leaves a lot of other .223 / 5.56 options out there. However, as we all know, once they get their foot in the door...... SUPPORT THE NRA. Link to comment
guitar_slinger Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Isn't there something in the Hague convention about armor piercing ammo and use on personnel? If so, how would BATF declaring M855 as armor piercing impact its use by our military? Seems there could be some sticky explaining to do. Link to comment
Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Help me, please. I'm a pure newbie re AR15s - just bought one this year. All I have been shooting is Federal 55 gr. American 5.56 ammo. No "green tips", and with no concept of what the core is. I have just been starting to look at reloading gear (dies, case trimmer, etc.) and so I have started to read about differing components. What defines M855 ammo? Is this an end of all 5.56, or just certain types? What will be out (if it comes to pass) and what will remain? Muchas gracias. LL Link to comment
Boon Doggle Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 M855 ,Green Tip, has a steel core that supposedly makes it armor piercing. Do not confuse it's capabilities with that of a tungsten core 50BMG. If you are looking for cheap military ammo just use M193 from Lake City, Federal, Wolf (God Forbid), PMC, and a bunch of others. The Federal 55gr. you are using is just fine. Or better yet, load your own. The proposed ban would not affect all .223/5.56 ammo at this time so there is no need to start hoarding. However, as we all know, this is probably only a starting point for the gun grabbers. Since the Supreme Court upheld the 2nd Amendment, the anti's have been looking for other ways to remove guns from the hands of citizens. Controlling ammo is just one of them. Link to comment
Backslidin' Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Help me, please. I'm a pure newbie re AR15s - just bought one this year. All I have been shooting is Federal 55 gr. American 5.56 ammo. No "green tips", and with no concept of what the core is. I have just been starting to look at reloading gear (dies, case trimmer, etc.) and so I have started to read about differing components. What defines M855 ammo? Is this an end of all 5.56, or just certain types? What will be out (if it comes to pass) and what will remain? Muchas gracias. LL M855 ammo has a 62 grain FMJ bullet. Ammo manufactured by Lake City is one of the more common brands seen. If you really enjoy reloading, .223 will give you lots of variety to work with, depending on twist rate of your rifle. My AR has a 1:7 twist rate so I load only heavier bullets, starting with 62 grain and going up to to 77 grain. Both Hornady and Sierra make really nice HPBT bullets that are very easy to reload and are very accurate. If you reload range brass, you'll find that much of it has crimped primers, meaning you have to swage the primer pocket. Link to comment
Utah Bob #35998 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 This is stupid. Brought on by gun grabbers and Government paranoia. Give em this inch and they'll take a mile! Link to comment
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 http://www.ammoland.com/2012/06/what-is-michigan-law-regarding-armor-piercing-ammunition/#axzz3RqW8XLny at least for now... GG ~ Link to comment
Dusty Balz, SASS#46599 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 That low life POS Link to comment
Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Ya know, I can't think of a decent or good thing to say about him. Link to comment
Dubious Don #56333 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Boondoggle, incorrect; M855 IS NOT armor piercing. Help me, please. I'm a pure newbie re AR15s - just bought one this year. All I have been shooting is Federal 55 gr. American 5.56 ammo. No "green tips", and with no concept of what the core is. I have just been starting to look at reloading gear (dies, case trimmer, etc.) and so I have started to read about differing components. What defines M855 ammo? Is this an end of all 5.56, or just certain types? What will be out (if it comes to pass) and what will remain? Muchas gracias. LL M193 Ball, 55gr copper jacket lead core. M855 ball, 62gr copper jacket lead/mild steel core. Is not and never was designed as armor piercing. AKA 'green tip' M995 Ball, 52gr copper jacket/tungsten designed specifically and is classified as armor piercing. AKA 'black tip' There you go. Expect another run on ammo followed by more of the same we have experienced the last two years and are just recovering from. Thank you liberal dopes. Green tip or M855 bal IS NOT armor piercing. That mild steel core does little to make it AP. It's not. That steel core however, depending on the range and the type of steel WILL crater your plates. I don't think indoor ranges like it much either! M855 was specifically exampted in previous ATF rulings. THEY are rethinking this it would seem, due to the ready availability of AR "pistols" that shoot 223. Armor piercing handgun ammunition was specifically banned years ago, never was an issue and no police officer has EVER been killed by AP ammunition. Its a fallacy, stupid movie stuff like every drug dealer has an AK under his coat. (go down to the border, find a cartel guy, HE has an AK under his coat. Average mope dealer in River City, USA? That dude has a Lorcin or some other craplakistanian POC gun under his seat...) Link to comment
Badlands Bob #61228 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 If they are banning these rounds to keep people from shooting through police vests, I'm afraid that most any 5.56 / 223 round will go right through an officers vest. They will only stop hand gun and shotgun rounds. For rifle rounds, you'd better find an oak tree. Link to comment
Subdeacon Joe Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Incrementalism. Link to comment
Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Well illustrated, Joe. Link to comment
Matthew Duncan Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Hmmm. Read that the ATF regulations pertain to armour piercing PISTOL ammunition. Link to comment
Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Hmmm. Read that the ATF regulations pertain to armour piercing PISTOL ammunition.Lots of AR 15 pistols out there......... Link to comment
Subdeacon Joe Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Hmmm. Read that the ATF regulations pertain to armour piercing PISTOL ammunition. Ammunition that may be used in handguns. I think that's how it reads. Not "made for handguns." Link to comment
Rusty Chains Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Remember just who the ATF ultimately reports to.... He recently said he is going to “squeeze every last little bit of change" out of the next two years, so get ready for more assaults on your freedom from Mr. "I have a pen and a phone." Too bad the Republicans don't have a veto proof majority in the Senate, because where we stand right now, the only effective check on his power is the Supreme Court and they are slow and undependable. Link to comment
Ramblin Gambler Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 This is stupid. Brought on by gun grabbers and Government paranoia. Give em this inch and they'll take a mile! I have a bunch of M855 that I accidentally bought. 3 separate times (it's not always well marked and some vendors don't let you open the package to look at the bullets). I was just looking for heavier bullets hoping they'd be more accurate, but I thought they'd be longer instead of having a different core. I can't shoot them at any of my normal ranges. So basically, I don't care if M855 is taken off the shelves to keep me from accidentally buying anymore. But UB is right, I'm not willing to give them another inch. Oh and subdeacon joe, consider that picture stole. Was the text done by a SASS shooter? Law Dog? Link to comment
Subdeacon Joe Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I have a bunch of M855 that I accidentally bought. 3 separate times (it's not always well marked and some vendors don't let you open the package to look at the bullets). I was just looking for heavier bullets hoping they'd be more accurate, but I thought they'd be longer instead of having a different core. I can't shoot them at any of my normal ranges. So basically, I don't care if M855 is taken off the shelves to keep me from accidentally buying anymore. But UB is right, I'm not willing to give them another inch. Oh and subdeacon joe, consider that picture stole. Was the text done by a SASS shooter? Law Dog? I stole it from a Facebook post by a pro-civil rights group, so feel free. Here is what I was able to find about it: http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2013/11/08/cake-and-compromise-illustrated-guide-to-gun-control/ "LawDogFiles wrote the text, HSGCA (“Hypocrisy and Stupidity Of Gun Control” – the most retarded acronym I’ve ever seen) illustrated it." Link to comment
Trailrider #896 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 I have a bunch of M855 that I accidentally bought. 3 separate times (it's not always well marked and some vendors don't let you open the package to look at the bullets). I was just looking for heavier bullets hoping they'd be more accurate, but I thought they'd be longer instead of having a different core. I can't shoot them at any of my normal ranges. So basically, I don't care if M855 is taken off the shelves to keep me from accidentally buying anymore. But UB is right, I'm not willing to give them another inch. Oh and subdeacon joe, consider that picture stole. Was the text done by a SASS shooter? Law Dog? Real smart! Posting this. Now, all they have to do is come and take it away from you, and maybe haul you away, too! (And don't think they can't track any of us, if they really want to.) I don't have any of the stuff, and have no reason to have it. But if "they" can, by executive fiat, ban these, they can widen that to any 5.56 or .223 Remington ammo, or any military ammo that might be used in a gun so chambered, probably including 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester, .30-06, etc., etc. The M855 thing is just the top of the slippery slope! OTOH, I don't see how the can track down every round of anything in this country. Back in the day, I worked for a defense outfit that was testing lightweight armor for protecting cargo and military vehicles. Somebody wrote a "threat analysis" against which they were trying to defend. In this case it was to protect military ordnance against random shot or sabotage while travelling cross-country. The report concluded that the major threat was .30 cal. ammo at 100 yds (this was back in the early '70's when people still thought in "yards" vs. meters). The report said the most likely threat was from hunting ammo (softpoints), and "no defense against armor piercing projectiles is required as there is none available in commercial trade." I went to my supervisor and asked how many hundred rounds of M2AP .30-06 they'd like me to buy at the Army surplus store downtown! While I heard an audible "gulp" from the boss, the report was never changed. For another, similar project, they did want to defend against AP. Problem was severalfold. (And this was a major aerospace and defense corporation, one of the largest at the time, and still is!) They had only an indoor 1000 inch range. So they decided to download rifle ammo to 100 yd velocities! But they had no reloading facilities for small arms ammunition. Neither did they have a chronograph to measure velocities. It so happened that Your Obedient Servant had an Oehler M11 chronography (the one with the paper screen and the metallic trace on the back...you had to change screens with each shot). I also handloaded. So I was given funds to buy 100 rounds of the AP, to reduce the loads behind the AP bullets! Reduced the loads and checked them at their 1000 in. range using my chronograph! Probably the only one ever to download .30-06 AP ammo! I was TDY on that project, so once the reduced loads were established and the resulting loads tested against different types of armor test plates, I returned to my regular assignment. Don't know what the conclusion was on either tests, but, so far as I know NO damage or incidents have occured since on over-the-road payloads, whether they were in armored carriers or not! Link to comment
Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Boondoggle, incorrect; M855 IS NOT armor piercing. M193 Ball, 55gr copper jacket lead core. M855 ball, 62gr copper jacket lead/mild steel core. Is not and never was designed as armor piercing. AKA 'green tip' M995 Ball, 52gr copper jacket/tungsten designed specifically and is classified as armor piercing. AKA 'black tip' There you go. Expect another run on ammo followed by more of the same we have experienced the last two years and are just recovering from. Thank you liberal dopes. Green tip or M855 bal IS NOT armor piercing. That mild steel core does little to make it AP. It's not. That steel core however, depending on the range and the type of steel WILL crater your plates. I don't think indoor ranges like it much either! M855 was specifically exampted in previous ATF rulings. THEY are rethinking this it would seem, due to the ready availability of AR "pistols" that shoot 223. Armor piercing handgun ammunition was specifically banned years ago, never was an issue and no police officer has EVER been killed by AP ammunition. Its a fallacy, stupid movie stuff like every drug dealer has an AK under his coat. (go down to the border, find a cartel guy, HE has an AK under his coat. Average mope dealer in River City, USA? That dude has a Lorcin or some other craplakistanian POC gun under his seat...) Thanks, Don...just what I was looking for. LL Link to comment
Chili Ron Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 Howdy, Its not paranoia if they are really after you. Best CR hot dang I spelled it and spell check didn't put in its inevitable two dang sents. Link to comment
ORNERY OAF Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 At least they didn't ban good ammo..the 62g steel core is kinda crap any way..wish I still had some of the couple hundred I bought on a whim, I would trade it for good stuff.. Link to comment
Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 At least they didn't ban good ammo..the 62g steel core is kinda crap any way..wish I still had some of the couple hundred I bought on a whim, I would trade it for good stuff.. It's not banned yet - it's still a proposal. http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_projectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf GG ~ Link to comment
Echeconnee Drifter Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Armor piercing handgun ammunition was specifically banned years ago, never was an issue and no police officer has EVER been killed by AP ammunition. Moreover, I've never seen a police officer who was wearing body armor that could stop a rifle. They almost always wear soft body armor (or very thing hard armor) designed only to stop pistol rounds. Class IIIa armor is rated to stop up to a .44 Magnum at close range. If you want to stop rifle regardless of the ammunition, you have to step up to rifle plate Class III or Class IV armor. Class III won't even stop armor piercing rifle rounds and Class IV will stop one(1) round of AP .30-06. The good ole fashioned 55 grain FMJ 5.56 round will zip right through three or four layers of Class IIIa body armor and still ruin your day, so the idea of people using AR handguns to kill police officers by using M855 is ridiculous in the extreme. Link to comment
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 At least they didn't ban good ammo..the 62g steel core is kinda crap any way..wish I still had some of the couple hundred I bought on a whim, I would trade it for good stuff.. That 'crap' kept 3 of my kids alive in multiple fire-fights. It's very good ammo in the 'rite' barrel with a 1/9 ROT. OLG Link to comment
ORNERY OAF Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 That 'crap' kept 3 of my kids alive in multiple fire-fights. It's very good ammo in the 'rite' barrel with a 1/9 ROT. OLG Was it good cause its what you had or would regular 55g or even heavier not done just as well? Just curious as to the reasons? Legit question..... Link to comment
Ramblin Gambler Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Real smart! Posting this. Now, all they have to do is come and take it away from you, and maybe haul you away, too! (And don't think they can't track any of us, if they really want to.) I don't have any of the stuff, and have no reason to have it. But if "they" can, by executive fiat, ban these, they can widen that to any 5.56 or .223 Remington ammo, or any military ammo that might be used in a gun so chambered, probably including 7.62 NATO/.308 Winchester, .30-06, etc., etc. The M855 thing is just the top of the slippery slope! OTOH, I don't see how the can track down every round of anything in this country. I can't tell for sure, but I think you may have completely missed my point. Link to comment
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Was it good cause its what you had or would regular 55g or even heavier not done just as well? Just curious as to the reasons? Legit question..... It's what's issued. Green tip 62 gn bullet Much better 'stopper' than the old 55fmj(m193)load. Carries better at distance too. Do some research and you'll know. OLG Link to comment
Michigan Slim Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 The 62 grain ammo is made specifically for the 1/7 twist (or other way around?). 1/7 stabilizes the heavier (62 g) tracer rounds better. I have 1/7 and 1/10 rifles. The 1/10 will keyhole the heavy rounds at long range on occasion. Link to comment
Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Ya'll sent me to the books...well, at least to the Interweb-thingy. Decent article on the inter-relationship between barrel length, twist rate and bullet weight...with some recommendations. http://www.gunsandammo.com/ammo/pair-barrel-twist-rates-ammo/undefined LL Link to comment
Echeconnee Drifter Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 Green tip 62 gn bullet Much better 'stopper' than the old 55fmj(m193)load. Carries better at distance too. Do some research and you'll know. Perhaps you can point me at some documentation to back up your assertion? The information I've always found strongly suggested that the M193 was a better all-around load. In tests it outperformed the M855 in every category but one. That one category was penetrating a helmet at 200 yards. The M193 wouldn't do it but the M855 would. NATO adoption of a cartridge requires successfully passing every test. The M193 breezed through every test but the helmet penetration one - which it failed. The M855 was adopted because it passed every test, but with the sole exception of the helmet test, was outperformed by the M193. At least, that's what my research turned up. I have not personally conducted extensive tests between the two rounds for myself so I really could say. The M855 does have a slight edge in its ballistic coefficient, but neither round is a particularly strong performer there. The .223 just doesn't have the bullet mass necessary for long-range performance in any load, so I wouldn't consider that to be much of a strong point for the M855 round. The M193 round has higher velocity out of the gate, negating that advantage somewhat as well. But when it's all said and done, both are FMJ bullets. Neither is an exceptional performer at much of anything. Civilians can find much better ammo off the shelf at any gun store in America for whatever specific purpose they have in mind. FMJ is really only used for shooting targets by everyone I know. For every other task, civilian bullets create better wound channels for hunting game, or explode much more violently for shooting varmits (the two-legged kind too!), or have much better aerodynamics for shooting tight groups, etc. Link to comment
Echeconnee Drifter Posted February 17, 2015 Share Posted February 17, 2015 http://www.gunsandammo.com/ammo/pair-barrel-twist-rates-ammo/undefined That link should read: http://www.gunsandammo.com/ammo/pair-barrel-twist-rates-ammo/ Link to comment
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