Real 97 vs replica

[Barbwire Bill, SASS #661]

I was wondering what people thought about a real Winchester 97 vs the Chinese replica's. I hear Cap is getting in more guns and was wondering if they hold up as well, better or worse compared to a real Winchester. I know Cap does a great job with the action but do the guns hold up well?

Any advise would be appreciated.
BB

[Charlie Whiskers]

They do pretty well. Original 97's are hard to find a good one that doesn't need parts replaced. And if you do find one in primo shape you're going to pay a primo price for it. The last run of the IAC's were pretty well built. But the Cowboy's that shoot 97's don't have just one... they usually have 2 or 3. One to shoot, one for back up when the 1st one breaks and one in the cabinet for that backup while #1 is being fixed. SxS's tend to be a bunch sturdier.

[Gawd Awful]

They do pretty well. Original 97's are hard to find a good one that doesn't need parts replaced. And if you do find one in primo shape you're going to pay a primo price for it. The last run of the IAC's were pretty well built. But the Cowboy's that shoot 97's don't have just one... they usually have 2 or 3. One to shoot, one for back up when the 1st one breaks and one in the cabinet for that backup while #1 is being fixed. SxS's tend to be a bunch sturdier.

Funny, I hear this all the time, but I've been using the same one since I started in 09, and have only ever replaced the ejector spring once, other than that it's been rock solid, and I shoot almost every weekend

[Widder, SASS #59054]

my knowledge of the internal stuff in the 97 is VERY limited.

 

BUT, I do use the Norinco/IAC 97's in ALL of my competitions.

 

Although I have a few 97's, I pretty much exclusively only use 2 of them in competition. One has a brass bead on the front and the other doesn't. Been basically using these 2 for 4 years now without any problems except to change out the ejector spring.

 

On the other hand, I have broken a couple Norinco/IAC's during my dry fire practice sessions, but your talking about a few thousand rough cycles of the action, like 25-35,000 cycles. I broke the slide arm.

 

I really don't have much experience with the Winchester, except for the one that gathers dust in the corner of my safe.

 

Santa Fe River Stan will hopefully chime in and share his experience with ONE.

 

 

..........Widder

[Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L]

Winchester is a minimum of 58 years old with 58 year old metallurgy. The new IAC are "NEW" with modern metallurgy. I have pulled three out of the shipping crates from China and tested them. They all worked wonderfully, so I will be handling them.

I gave up working on the old Winchesters, because the most of them are worn past being reliable.

Give me new any day.

Johnny Meadows

[Attica Jack #23953]

I have them both, been shooting my Norinco for 16 years, only repair something on the slide broke, and replaced the right extractor spring setup. Just have the Winchester as a backup.. My thinking is the worst Chinese steel produced now, is better than what steel was produced 100 years ago.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

I've gotten to the point where with some of these guns I have to see it myself to believe it. All I know is that after about 5 Norinco/IAC 04' and 09's I have finally found a 97 that runs like I need one to and that's my 1956 E model. The IAC's have just flat out not stayed running for me. I can understand the metallurgy thought but several of my Chinese guns developed bolt tolerance issue even with featherlight use that made them unreliable. I'm sure the new ones are quite nice but I'll stick with what I have going on for now.

[Attica Jack #23953]

Deuce, with the speed you run all your guns, I can't believe any of them stay tuned for your use.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I have 4 97s.

 

1. Is a real Winchester. It has a 20" barrel, and the stock is stamped WPD. I have no paperwork on its history, but I like to imagine that WPD stands for Winchester Police Department. This was my original SASS shotgun. Never had any work done to it, and it functions just fine. It is a takedown model.

 

2. Is a real Winchester. This one has a 28" barrel. I had long wanted one with a longer barrel, just because. This is also a takedown, and when I got it, the barrel was kind of loose on the frame. I got one of those spacers, and it tightened right up. While the gun did work just fine when operating it single shot/SASS style, I soon discoverd that it would not reliably feed rounds from the magazine. I had this problem repaired. While he was at it, the gunsmith put in a new threaded part that screws the barrel to the frame to do away with the earlier wiggle problem. The gun is now as tight as my others, and never has any problems. this has also become my standard SASS shotgun. I have found that I miss less with the longer barrel.

 

3. Is a reproduction 97 Trench Gun. A very nice gun that works flawlessly, right out of the box. I sometimes use it for Wild Bunch. With the bayonet attached!

 

4. Is a 93/97. For those who don't know, this is newly manufactured 97 made to resemble the earlier Winchester model 93, hence the name. Not SASS legal, but some places will let you use it at a local match. This gun has got a very smooth action out of the box, and I can't say enough nice things about it. It is my understanding that they are now Wild Bunch legal. I have not used it any matches. Maybe I will someday where it can be, but I really wanted to have one to represent the 93 in my "Winchester" collection, especially since orginal 93's are of questionably safe usage.

 

Other than the stated things in gun number 2, none of these guns has ever given me any problems. I have never understood the you need three idea, as it has just not been my experience. Maybe I'm just lucky.

[Rye Miles #13621]

I'm not a 97 guy but I did just pick up a beautiful 97 model made in 1952 that I'm going to have worked on. All I can say is all the pards I have that use 97's most of 'em prefer they're Winchesters to the chinese guns. In fact 2 of my pards have had problems with the chinese guns and virtually none with the Winchesters. That's why I bought a Winchester.

 

Just my 2 cents Rye

[Warden Callaway]

 

Here's my C series 97 I really didn't need but followed me home anyway. I haven't shot it in a SASS match. I have shot some pasture skeet with it. I had the chamber deepened and forcing cone cut. Those that have handled it say it's been shot very little.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

They do pretty well. Original 97's are hard to find a good one that doesn't need parts replaced. And if you do find one in primo shape you're going to pay a primo price for it. The last run of the IAC's were pretty well built. But the Cowboy's that shoot 97's don't have just one... they usually have 2 or 3. One to shoot, one for back up when the 1st one breaks and one in the cabinet for that backup while #1 is being fixed. SxS's tend to be a bunch sturdier.

That's a bunch of malarky......I've been shooting the same original 97 made in 1910 for 8 years......set up correctly you need 1.

 

Left Hand Extractor with a coil spring conversion.....Mainspring worked over slightly.....make sure right hand extractor has enough pressure.....profile locking bar to lock but release upon trigger pull.......

 

Grind on bolt...NO

Grind on Carrier.....NO

 

Add Lube.......Clean at least once a year.

 

Stan

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

 

Here's my C series 97 I really didn't need but followed me home anyway. I haven't shot it in a SASS match. I have shot some pasture skeet with it. I had the chamber deepened and forcing cone cut. Those that have handled it say it's been shot very little.

 

Dang! That's one pretty gun! Have to say I cringed when you rolled it over on the rock. I was sure you'd scratch up the very nice finish that it still has.

 

If ever you decide you don't want it anymore drop me a PM, I might be interested!

[coloradoblackjack]

i have been shooting the same Norinco in matches since 2004 and other than ejector springs have not had any major problems. and I shoot a LOT of matches. my wife is shooting the same norinco since 2008 and has had the same experience.

when we needed wild bunch shotguns we got norincos to allow us to have backups. no problems there either.

 

when they find out you shoot norincos people say you need 3 of them to be competitive but I just smile and nod.

[Warden Callaway]

The gun has been reblued but nicely done. Forend wood is likely new. It had a chip out of butt stock behind trigger guard that I repaired. Butt stock had been refinished before so I didn't try to remove all the dents - just clean it up and applied another coat of linseed oil. It has original steel butt plate. I figured all the screws and pins had been replaced but when looking at internal parts, I think they are original. Not a screw or pin buggered. The takedown is tight. I recently replaced the right extractor spring. The interal parts look new but old dry oil had frozen up the extractors.

 

I turned it over very gently. I cringe when I see CAS slam down their guns.

[Chisler Wood]

I've yet to handle a reproduction that was as good as a GOOD original. There are a lot of crap originals out there that people don't have a clue about their quality and they get a bad rap.

 

A good usable (by my standards) original is going to run 500-700 bucks.

[Warden Callaway]

I have no experience with Chinese 97s. I did buy a Chinese PW87 that would be best described as a collection of rough cast parts forced together. I later ran across a Winchester 87 I what looked to be in good shape for a couple of hundred more. I didn't buy it but it was hell and gone a lot better gun for the money.

[Charlie Whiskers]

That's a bunch of malarky......I've been shooting the same original 97 made in 1910 for 8 years......set up correctly you need 1.

 

Left Hand Extractor with a coil spring conversion.....Mainspring worked over slightly.....make sure right hand extractor has enough pressure.....profile locking bar to lock but release upon trigger pull.......

 

Grind on bolt...NO

Grind on Carrier.....NO

 

Add Lube.......Clean at least once a year.

 

Stan

 

I know several shooters that have 97's and love them. I have 2 of them myself. 1 original made in 1922 and 1 IAC the last run they made before shutting it down. My original has spent almost as much time being repaired as it has being shot. I had a Norinco but sold that to a fellow shooter. He's still shooting it.

Most of the ones I know that shoot 97's have at LEAST 2 some 3 and 4 because one's almost always being repaired for one reason or another. I went back to SxS Baikal's that Johnny Meadows has worked over and can't see myself ever switching back to a 97. The only time my 97's get used is if I decide to shoot a WB match. That's why I posted what I posted. The OP was asking for an opinion and I gave him mine. Other's mileage may and do vary. But I know what my experience with them has been.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

I had two really nice Winchester 97s and had them pretty well tuned. They were very slick, but I wore out both of them.

 

I'm almost too gentle with my 97's and have to remember to rack them with authority, so I don't wear them as much as many do.

 

But I got two (now 3) Norinco/IAC 97s) and they have held up really well for years. The originals can hold up pretty well, but my experience is that the newer guns with harder steel hold up better - assuming they are well set up. One area to watch is how the slide fits into the slide hook. Many times the relatively early imports did not fit well there, so that was a weak point. One of my early Norincos was that way so I had the tab on the slide welded up and I fitted it. It has run really well for many years.

 

As you can see from the posts, a Winchester 97 in good condition can last well, but they are harder to find.

 

And a good import will definitely hold up well, if it is properly tuned and not "over-tuned."

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

 

I know several shooters that have 97's and love them. I have 2 of them myself. 1 original made in 1922 and 1 IAC the last run they made before shutting it down. My original has spent almost as much time being repaired as it has being shot. I had a Norinco but sold that to a fellow shooter. He's still shooting it.

Most of the ones I know that shoot 97's have at LEAST 2 some 3 and 4 because one's almost always being repaired for one reason or another. I went back to SxS Baikal's that Johnny Meadows has worked over and can't see myself ever switching back to a 97. The only time my 97's get used is if I decide to shoot a WB match. That's why I posted what I posted. The OP was asking for an opinion and I gave him mine. Other's mileage may and do vary. But I know what mine experience with them has been.

Just curious what was breaking on your original 97 that kept it in the shop?

 

Note that I said "correctly set up".....not correctly set up equals trouble.

 

Plus you said "The Cowboys that shoot a 97" implying everyone.....that's the malarkey part.

 

Overworked 97's can be a problem for sure but rest assured that not every 97 shooter has extra's because they break......I know plenty that don't.

 

Stan

[Warden Callaway]

One major consideration for me is that I'm not worried about "using up" a replica - they will make more. Although the Winchester 97 I pictured above is not a real collectable grade gun, I'd hate to put it to the abuse of CAS.

[Charlie Whiskers]

We

 

Just curious what was breaking on your original 97 that kept it in the shop?

 

Note that I said "correctly set up".....not correctly set up equals trouble.

 

Stan

 

Well, to start with I never had it "set up". It was stock just as I bought it. It ran fine for about 3 shoots then wouldn't eject the spent hull. It'd hang it out the side. Got that fixed and ran another 3 or 4 shoots and the (for lack of a better term) "flag" that was supposed to rise and keep the hull in place when the slide went forward didn't rise and would lock it up. Got that fixed. A few shoots later when I using it, it wouldn't fire, the hammer was following the slide forward. Got that fixed and put it in my gun cabinet along with my new IAC and ordered a Baikal. I guess I just got tired of spending more money getting it fixed than I had spent on the shotgun to start with.

[Cypress Sun]

They do pretty well. Original 97's are hard to find a good one that doesn't need parts replaced. And if you do find one in primo shape you're going to pay a primo price for it. The last run of the IAC's were pretty well built. But the Cowboy's that shoot 97's don't have just one... they usually have 2 or 3. One to shoot, one for back up when the 1st one breaks and one in the cabinet for that backup while #1 is being fixed. SxS's tend to be a bunch sturdier.

 

Ya know Charlie, I keep hearing the "have 3, shoot 1" fallacy on the Wire. Truth is, I've seen 3 times as many shooter's have problems with S x S's than '97's. Most folks own more than one '97 because they happened on a good deal. I have a few pristine ones due to non CAS folks reading the Blue Book and not knowing what they were "really" worth.

 

I'd rather buy two decent '97's for $1,400 than one S x S for the same price. Just my preference.............

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

I have been using an original 97 made in 1898 for over 15 years. I've replace the forearm because I wore it out holding shells in my hand. There was no ejector on this model so it can't break. I have had several foreign 97's that would be better served as a lamp post. Good ones are out there but you need to go through a handful of bad ones before you find a decent and reliable foreign 97.

 

My 2 cents

[Buck Bisley]

Here's my C series 97 I really didn't need but followed me home anyway. I haven't shot it in a SASS match. I have shot some pasture skeet with it. I had the chamber deepened and forcing cone cut. Those that have handled it say it's been shot very little.

Would this woman have a wheelbarrow full of pasture skeet?

[Church Key, SASS # 33713]

My Norinco 97 has been used since 2001 for about 30+ matches a year. Figure 10K+ rounds through it. Gone through a couple of ejector springs after having it slicked up; that's all. Bought a Chinese trench gun a while back for WB. It's even nicer than the Norinco. Did not need any work at all, except to install a Wild Tom Body spring and follower to allow loading six. Also got a barrel band so the heat shield can be removed and used as a backup to the older gun. I tried a Win. 97 for a bit, but did not like it as was a takedown and came unglued a couple of times during a match when the barrel takedown pin got accidently pushed; duh!

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

I bought this one when I first started out in CAS. Made in 1908. Paid $350 for it. I didn't realize at the time how common 97's were and I thought it would be unusual to own one. Anyhoo, I soon realized that I preferred a SXS for CAS, but I still keep this one around. 30" full choke barrel, it makes a pretty good Trap gun, and I have won a couple of Cowboy Trap medals with it.

 

[Charlie Whiskers]

I've been fortunate enough over that last 6 years to have traveled quite a bit to different shoots in several states from Montana to Arizona and points in between. Granted, probably not as much as a lot of you folks on here. Just about everywhere I've been there's more than one 97 shooter with his or her backup in the gun cart or their vehicle. More than once it was needed. I carry a backup rifle, pistols and shotgun when I go out of state and have NEVER needed to use my backup SxS Baikal. I like 97's, I have 2 of them like I said, but other than a newer Stoeger I had I've never needed a backup for my SxS. And that one Stoeger made it through the shoot but it got sent back to Stoeger after my trip. I sold it later and bought another Baikal and had Johnny Meadows work on that one too. Never have had a problem with either one. I'm real happy that all of you 97 shooters never have problems with yours, but I sure as hell did with mine.

[Rye Miles #13621]

It's been said the the worst steel produced in China today is better than USA steel from 100 yrs; ago. Anyone in the steel business out there that can verify this? I don't believe it myself judging from the quality of other chinese products that I've seen. I'm not or ever was in the steel business so I don't know.

[evil dogooder]

I work in the steel industry. I haven't seen all the steel from a hundred years ago. Nor all the steel coming from china. What i will say is there is a reason why the company i work for will not use even a single piece of China steel in anything we make. We go through literally millions of tons of steel a year.

[Rye Miles #13621]

I work in the steel industry. I haven't seen all the steel from a hundred years ago. Nor all the steel coming from china. What i will say is there is a reason why the company i work for will not use even a single piece of China steel in anything we make. We go through literally millions of tons of steel a year.

Thanks for that info. I have a hard time believing that the steel 100 yrs. ago made in the USA is somehow inferior to the new chinese steel!

[Warden Callaway]

I worked in the engineering department of a manufacturing facility that did a lot of steel fabrication using Chinese sheet steel. It was a consistent struggle to use this stuff because of it's poor quality and poor manufacturing tolerances.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

 

It's been said the the worst steel produced in China today is better than USA steel from 100 yrs; ago.

Howdy

 

That is a very general statement. 100 years ago most firearms manufacturers were using Nickel Steel for barrels. Nickel steel was an alloy developed in the 1890s and was stronger than steel alloys used previously. As the name implies, a small percentage of Nickel was alloyed into the steel for improved strength. Winchester began experimenting with Nickel Steel in 1892, using it for the development of the Winchester-Lee Navy rifle of 1895. Winchester really liked Nickel Steel and prominently stamped it on the barrels of many of their models. I have a Model 12 made in 1914 and another one made in 1923 that proudly state the barrels are Nickel Steel. I would strongly suspect a 100 year old Model 1897 also had a Nickel Steel barrel.

 

Later developments in metallurgy created Ordinance Steel around 1916, with greater ductility than Nickel Steel. So whatever the Chinese are using today, the steel Winchester was using in 1915 was pretty good stuff.

 

Of course time marches on and so does metallurgy. Some modern steels are stronger than the Nickel Steel of the early 20th Century. Modern steel specifications are very exact in specifying chemical composition and physical properties of steel. If the Chinese are cutting corners on some of the specifications, of their steel, it would take someone familiar with the specifications of the steel to identify the shortcomings. Specifically, without knowing what alloy the Chinese are using for their 1897 reproductions, and then testing it, nobody can say for sure whether or not it is better than the steel used in this country 100 years ago.

 

I'll bet Coyote Cap knows.

[Cypress Sun]

No bet with me.

[Colt McAllister]

The Chinese steel in the IAC's is harder than the steel in original Winchesters, however it is brittle. I see more IAC parts break because of this. Yes I've used both and worked on just a few of both.