Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Legal or Not?


Beartrap  SASS#57175

Recommended Posts

When writing stages there are small things that will help prevent things like this.

1. Start shooters holding a small prop with both hands that has to be put down before picking up or drawing first gun.

Small gold bag, bucket, reins, shovel, wheel barrow, glass and bottle, cards, hat, hands on prop and you get the point.

Not touching guns to start unless stated to do so.

 

2. Starting position is two steps from shooting position.

Make shooter take minimum of two steps to get to shooting position. Doesn't need to be more.

Have shooter start behind a prop that requires shooter to move to one side or the other to see targets.

 

I'm just suggesting that the stage writers can write stages that will deal with most of these issues.

 

Over the years the rules have been pushed and the rule book has gotten bigger to try and fix it. (no luck on that)

I agree with your thinking.

 

In this case. Start with hands touching pistols (yes both pistols), two steps back (better yet, an imaginary/real starting line). At beep, engage rifle targets in xyz sweep. You just eliminated the temptation to half pull pistols, finger in trigger guard, thumb on hammer, reaching for SG shells,, hovering, spider fingers, hunched over, crowd the starting first shooting position, and so forth. Everyone is happy and no new rules are needed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is the milliseconds saved doing it worth the respect lost by your fellow shooters? To me nope the respect is more important.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, Ok, OK, I surrender!!! :ph34r: Now here's the part I left out. :ph34r: I was that DRB that asked if I could do it!!! Not because I really wanted to, but because I like to play "what if's" to keep me and my pards sharp about how to call things. TO said "hell no" but couldn't back it up with a rule when I asked why not, other than it was sneaky, low down and rotten. Not wanting to be sneaky, low down and rotten, I shoved 'em all the way in.

Now the other part: after the match I asked the TG and another match director what they thought and they both agreed that, while sneaky, low down and rotten, it was legal. Therefore I thought I'd stir things up a bit by asking for an "official" opinion.

 

Ya'll can put away the ropes now, cause I think PWB answered the question by implying it's a SoG faulted starting position.

 

We now return you to the "shooting while running" thread. :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

LOL, The OP didn't specify which firearm was to be started with. Everyone pressumed pistols. It could've been rifle/SG.

Yes he did.

Stage instructions: Starts with long guns staged safely and pistols holstered. Shooter starts with hands on pistols.

Scenario in question: Shooter starts with both hands on pistols and pistols raised until tip of muzzle is barely inside holster.

 

Question is not whether it's "gamey", "questionable" or whether you THINK it's a violation of the Spirit of the Game 30 second Penalty. Question is whether it's TECHNICALLY legal or not.

 

Oh yeah..... this may PO some folks, but IMO, it is not much different than a situation that came up a few years back. The scenario has the handgun staged on the table, shooter with his hands on the guns. The same guys would pick up the gun, leaving the muzzle touching the table, and call it good. Yeah.... these are the same guys who would pull the guns out of the holsters leaving just the muzzle in the leather.... SAME GUYS!

I gotta agree with Al, no, not the same guys... I do this all the time... but, only because I don't like splinters under my fingernails. :ph34r: Not much helps my speed! Generally referred to as "glacial"! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gamey to be sure. And it will only COST them a few micro-seconds as it will be nearly always slower to get the pistol out of the holster this way.

 

I think holstered means truly holstered in this case. I know we have SASS rules to clarify the 170 concerning holstering pistols, etc. But this is really stretching things. You are told to be touching the holstered pistol. Holding it in the holster is not the same.

 

But I guess it would depend on "what the definition of 'is' is." Do we really want our ethics defined by a lying, cheating politician?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't wait to try this in the field section of my next RO II class. This is going to be FUN!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried a stunt similar to this once upon a time, Starting position hands on hat, mine were as I HELD MY HAT DOWN NEAR MY GUNS.

TO, spotters , and whoile posse got a laugh, then I put my hat no right, and missed the first three shots cause were still laughing. All in fun but had I been serious I would have at least expected a SOG and loss of respect as a minimum.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi Beartrap,

 

I know you are a good guy. So, I will not get out the tar and feathers yet. Also, this is a worthy topic to ponder. Thank you for bringing it up and taking the punishment like a man!

 

I would insert the wub smiley here; but I don't want to ruin your reputation. :o

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Beartrap is indeed a very good guy... He is as straight up as they come, and I enjoy shooting with him every chance I get. There ain't an ounce of cheat in him.

 

Snakebite

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Beartrap is indeed a very good guy... He is as straight up as they come, and I enjoy shooting with him every chance I get. There ain't an ounce of cheat in him.

 

Snakebite

Yep...don't get much better then Beartrap.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried a stunt similar to this once upon a time, Starting position hands on hat, mine were as I HELD MY HAT DOWN NEAR MY GUNS.

TO, spotters , and whoile posse got a laugh, then I put my hat no right, and missed the first three shots cause were still laughing. All in fun but had I been serious I would have at least expected a SOG and loss of respect as a minimum.

This reminds me of a similar situation. Starting position was with a hat in hand (not yours). At the beep toss it at the horse's head. One shooter just dropped the hat. I lost much respect for that person that day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is overly political and emotional. TO doesn't start shooter in an improper start position. If shooter goes horribly gamer off script and gains a competitive advantage, assess SOG penalty. There's no need to get emotionally invested here. Do the crime add the time...simple and no elevated BP. Emotional match staff are not being as fair and objective as possible and eventually fall from grace and make jaded calls rooted in ability envy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is overly political and emotional. TO doesn't start shooter in an improper start position. If shooter goes horribly gamer off script and gains a competitive advantage, assess SOG penalty. There's no need to get emotionally invested here. Do the crime add the time...simple and no elevated BP. Emotional match staff are not being as fair and objective as possible and eventually fall from grace and make jaded calls rooted in ability envy.

Say...what????

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is overly political and emotional. TO doesn't start shooter in an improper start position. If shooter goes horribly gamer off script and gains a competitive advantage, assess SOG penalty. There's no need to get emotionally invested here. Do the crime add the time...simple and no elevated BP. Emotional match staff are not being as fair and objective as possible and eventually fall from grace and make jaded calls rooted in ability envy.

What in the world are you talking about? :wacko:

OLG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is overly political and emotional. TO doesn't start shooter in an improper start position. If shooter goes horribly gamer off script and gains a competitive advantage, assess SOG penalty. There's no need to get emotionally invested here. Do the crime add the time...simple and no elevated BP. Emotional match staff are not being as fair and objective as possible and eventually fall from grace and make jaded calls rooted in ability envy.

 

Put down the pipe & step away from the keyboard.

 

<_<

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"Just play the game the way it's MEANT to be...instead of trying this borderline "technically legal" crap."

 

My feelings exactly!

 

Snakebite

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok Folks, this is -Cowboy- not -Law School-.

 

If you are hard wired for "smart###", there is a way to do it properly. Prior to the beep, show your "clever" idea" and in a very sarcastic way, say "How about like this? No? Well OK then." Then do it right. But let it drop, please.

 

You will have made your point. Every one can say "What a smart ###!" And then we can all go play Cowboy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok Folks, this is -Cowboy- not -Law School-.

 

If you are hard wired for "smart###", there is a way to do it properly. Prior to the beep, show your "clever" idea" and in a very sarcastic way, say "How about like this? No? Well OK then." Then do it right. But let it drop, please.

That's what I did on the stage.

However, if you regularly TO as many extremely competitive shooters as I do, you'd see all kinds of "creative ideas". I asked for an "official" ruling because of different opinions locally about it's legality.

 

You will have made your point. Every one can say "What a smart ###!" And then we can all go play Cowboy.

My point is that I like to be as proficient in my calls as I can be in even unusual situations.

I did drop it as soon as PWB responded.

As far as your opinion of how "smart" I am, I couldn't care less!

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is NOT directed at the OP. We don't play the "it's technically legal" or the "if it don't say I can't then I can" games at our club. We are Cowboys/Cowgirls and try our best to hold true to the Spirit of the Game. Now that don't mean we don't allow some creativity but if you are thinking about doing something different then ask about it before you do it and don't argue if we say it's not allowed. If someone wants to try to argue the point we just advise them that technically they can shoot somewhere else.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We don't play the "it's technically legal" or the "if it don't say I can't then I can" games at our club. We are Cowboys/Cowgirls and try our best to hold true to the Spirit of the Game. Now that don't mean we don't allow some creativity but if you are thinking about doing something different then ask about it before you do it and don't argue if we say it's not allowed. If someone wants to try to argue the point we just advise them that technically they can shoot somewhere else.

Two questions:

 

1. Do you think this is any different then other Clubs?

 

2. Do you think advertising like this makes your club out to be fun and inviting?

 

Phantom

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This reminds of a quote by Theodore Roosevelt from more than a hundred years ago, I paraphrase, "Politicians worry more about what is legal or illegal than what is right or wrong."

Just because something is legal doesn't make it right. I am as "gamey" as any shooter out there, but the rules are clear and the stage conventions are as well. We all know what is "right".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OMG SASS is a game predicated on the "COWBOY" way (Never Lie, Cheat or Steal and shoot straight). If trying to win has become that important perhaps we should all start shooting IPSC and only matches with cash prizes!!!

 

I shall continue to wear out hour glasses until someone is smart enough to replace them with sundials and hope I get a little better each match.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I once shot at a stage where you had to lasso a "horse" around the neck before starting the run. I asked how far away I had to be. TO said as far as you think you can make it. So I thought I would be cute and toss it from the first firing position. Not only did I not get the lasso around the neck, I missed the whole darn horse. I swear it took me at least 9 seconds to go pick up that lasso and put it on the neck, and another 10 seconds for the rest of us to stop laughing. Had it not been for that, I might have finished 3rd to last rather than 2nd to last. Ah who am I kidding? I am pretty sure I was more than 20 seconds behind the next guy up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.