Beartrap SASS#57175 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Stage instructions: Starts with long guns staged safely and pistols holstered. Shooter starts with hands on pistols. Scenario in question: Shooter starts with both hands on pistols and pistols raised until tip of muzzle is barely inside holster. Question is not whether it's "gamey", "questionable" or whether you THINK it's a violation of the Spirit of the Game 30 second Penalty. Question is whether it's TECHNICALLY legal or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Stage instructions: Starts with long guns staged safely and pistols holstered. Shooter starts with hands on pistols. Scenario in question: Shooter starts with both hands on pistols and pistols raised until tip of muzzle is barely inside holster. Question is not whether it's "gamey", "questionable" or whether you THINK it's a violation of the Spirit of the Game 30 second Penalty. Question is whether it's TECHNICALLY legal or not. NO. ...and, since you asked, I won't tell you what I THINK about someone who would pull a stunt like that...except that, if I was T/O, he'd be waiting a looonnng time for the "beep". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackaroo, # 29989 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Well I would not have started him until they were properly back in the holsters with his 'hands on pistols.' It's not 'holding pistols' or ' holding on to pistols half drawn' ?.? And to hell with the technicality . PWB beat me by 2 mins.and I had not seen his post, typing same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beartrap SASS#57175 Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 WOW!!!! I'm impressed! Got PWB right off the bat! Now, just for the record, what is the justification for the ruling as pistols are generally considered "holstered" until the muzzle tip clears leather. p.s. not arguing the point, just trying to learn more. Shooters rational is holsters are very tight and pistols hang up unless slightly pulled up. Many shooters begin stage by "loosening" pistols in holster. Just how much "loosening" is ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 WOW!!!! I'm impressed! Got PWB right off the bat! Now, just for the record, what is the justification for the ruling as pistols are generally considered "holstered" until the muzzle tip clears leather. Since you didn't ask for any commentary re: this being gamey, questionable, or worthy of a SOG call, I'll simply direct you to the definition of a "Spirit of the Game" violation. REF: RO1 p.26 p.s. not arguing the point, just trying to learn more. Shooters rational is holsters are very tight and pistols hang up unless slightly pulled up. Many shooters begin stage by "loosening" pistols in holster. Just how much "loosening" is ok? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Isn't this were the stage conventions come in and since the stage doesn't give a well defined starting position then you revert to the stage convention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beartrap SASS#57175 Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 WOW!!!! I'm impressed! Got PWB right off the bat! Now, just for the record, what is the justification for the ruling as pistols are generally considered "holstered" until the muzzle tip clears leather. Since you didn't ask for any commentary re: this being gamey, questionable, or worthy of a SOG call, I'll simply direct you to the definition of a "Spirit of the Game" violation. REF: RO1 p.26 p.s. not arguing the point, just trying to learn more. Shooters rational is holsters are very tight and pistols hang up unless slightly pulled up. Many shooters begin stage by "loosening" pistols in holster. Just how much "loosening" is ok? I'll take that as meaning that, while no technical written definition is being violated, it does in fact constitute a clear violation of the SoG rule and DOES require the appropriate penalty! Next time he tries that we'll just horse whip that DRB! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I'll take that as meaning that, while no technical written definition is being violated, it does in fact constitute a clear violation of the SoG rule and DOES require the appropriate penalty! Next time he tries that we'll just horse whip that DRB! Percussive maintenance as a behavior modifier can cure many problems! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 For the record I was not the shooter in question and do not advocate this type of behavior but was under the impression that it would be legal even if not "right" based on this post and others like it. The RO Committee has arrived at a consensus on how to best clarify the question of what is meant by "in hand" as applied to loaded revolvers.The following will be posted on the TG, RO, and ROC Wires (to be added to the next edit of the RO1 "Glossary of Terms") : "REVOLVER IN HAND" is defined as it applies to:Holstered = Muzzle clear of the mouth of the holster (i.e. "out of leather")Staged = Muzzle no longer in contact with the surface of the initial staging point...this provides the same allowance for a 'full grip' on the second (loaded) revolver while firing the first no matter how/where the revolver(s) start on the stage.Once the muzzle clears the holster or all contact is broken with the prop, the shooter is in violation if not registered as a GF or BW competitor.Thanks to all who contributed to the decision-making process.PWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beartrap SASS#57175 Posted February 1, 2015 Author Share Posted February 1, 2015 I THINK what PWB is saying is: Legal: Technically Right: Nope, therefore in clear violation of SoG Result: TO does not start in faulted position, therefore waits a looonnng time for buzzer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Percussive maintenance as a behavior modifier can cure many problems! Yes, that tactic has worked well for us in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 My poor memory takes me back to the many discussions about the Cross Draw Holsters. During those discussions, we finally decided that the gun was considered holstered when the muzzle was started into the holster. I don't recall any discussions of the gun going the other direction, except maybe if the shooter fell down, and the handgun came out out of the holster... in that case, if the muzzle was still in the holster it was considered holstered. I also remember discussion about holstering a handgun with the hammer not fully down... the penalty was not awarded until the shooter removed his hand from the gun... even though the handgun was in the holster. Seems to be some latitude. But in this case... yep, shornuff, and dern toottin, the low down scumbag would get a SOG if he didn't play it right, and I don't know of a Range Master worth his salt that wouldn't back up the T.O. who issued it. Snakebite Oh yeah..... this may PO some folks, but IMO, it is not much different than a situation that came up a few years back. The scenario has the handgun staged on the table, shooter with his hands on the guns. The same guys would pick up the gun, leaving the muzzle touching the table, and call it good. Yeah.... these are the same guys who would pull the guns out of the holsters leaving just the muzzle in the leather.... SAME GUYS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Sometimes Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Silly to gain a couple seconds off your time but probably loose a couple friends in the process... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Silly to gain a couple seconds off your time but probably loose a couple friends in the process... I can't imagine gaining more than a couple hundredths of a second with that move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I can't imagine gaining more than a couple hundredths of a second with that move. With the energy it took to hold them in mid air and NOT come all the way out. It might have even cost them a couple of hundredths Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 My poor memory takes me back to the many discussions about the Cross Draw Holsters. During those discussions, we finally decided that the gun was considered holstered when the muzzle was started into the holster. I don't recall any discussions of the gun going the other direction, except maybe if the shooter fell down, and the handgun came out out of the holster... in that case, if the muzzle was still in the holster it was considered holstered. I also remember discussion about holstering a handgun with the hammer not fully down... the penalty was not awarded until the shooter removed his hand from the gun... even though the handgun was in the holster. Seems to be some latitude. But in this case... yep, shornuff, and dern toottin, the low down scumbag would get a SOG if he didn't play it right, and I don't know of a Range Master worth his salt that wouldn't back up the T.O. who issued it. Snakebite Oh yeah..... this may PO some folks, but IMO, it is not much different than a situation that came up a few years back. The scenario has the handgun staged on the table, shooter with his hands on the guns. The same guys would pick up the gun, leaving the muzzle touching the table, and call it good. Yeah.... these are the same guys who would pull the guns out of the holsters leaving just the muzzle in the leather.... SAME GUYS! Sorry. Not the same guys. One was quickly ruled legal And this one quickly ruled not by the same rules peple. So how is it the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I have NOT seen any official ruling on this situation. I've read opinions. It is a full committee that makes official "Rulings". Everyone may not agree with the ruling, but as a committee, they will speak with One voice. I remember the issue, and I thought it was gamey at the time, but it was ruled upon, and I fully supported it. I NOW have the right to express my personal opinion, and IMO, staging the handgun means just that... not holding it with just the barrel touching the table. If the Writer has intended it to be held, then it would have been stated in the scenario. So yes... I think it is the same people. They would do it until such time that an Official ruling was made denying it, or until a committed T.O. simply would not allow him to get away with it. We will always have the few folks that will stretch things to the limit until they are forced to stop, rather than just play the game and run the scenario the way it was intended. This type of thing has played out time and again over the years. In some cases the perpetrators are the same guys. Whether it be creative shotshell loops that holds four shells for a easy grabbing, carving out the top of a SXS to the point that the brass shows for easier loading or completely removing the locking mechanism on the SXS, using non-smoking loads in a Black Powder category, and on and on and on. In short, just not giving a hoot about the Spirit of the Game. For these folks the WIN is everything. The Win is indeed wonderful, but a hollow win is just not worth a damn to anyone with any integrity. I realize that all of this is just My Opinion,but it is the best that I can do to answer your question of "So how is it the same". Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry T Harrison Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 It's guys like this that are the reason the rule book no longer fits in your shirt pocket and stage directions need to be approved by an attorney. The spirit of the game was lost long ago with crap like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 This one is going to be very interesting. I'm making popcorn! Its a tough call. Technically its legal. More than likely its a loophole that wasnt considered when defining the rules as to.what is considered a holstered gun. Is it gamey in the negative sense of the word? In my opinion yes. But my opinion didn't count for much. At the same time how is it any more gamey than a dd having one barrel barely in the holster? Its a catch 22. You can't really call one legal without calling the other legal. Just as you can't call one bad without calling the other bad. Days like these I'm glad I'm not pwb! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 It's guys like this that are the reason the rule book no longer fits in your shirt pocket and stage directions need to be approved by an attorney. The spirit of the game was lost long ago with crap like this +1 the fact that you have to define what a holstered gun is, is just asinine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Note to all stage writers. Eliminate a starting position with hands on pistols that are holstered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 This one is going to be very interesting. I'm making popcorn! Its a tough call. Technically its legal. More than likely its a loophole that wasnt considered when defining the rules as to.what is considered a holstered gun. Is it gamey in the negative sense of the word? In my opinion yes. But my opinion didn't count for much. At the same time how is it any more gamey than a dd having one barrel barely in the holster? Its a catch 22. You can't really call one legal without calling the other legal. Just as you can't call one bad without calling the other bad. One is a starting position...the other occurs DURING the stage. IMO...this crap is the same as the AH who was starting with "rifle in hand" and cocking the hammer on the "stand by" so it would be easier to lever that first round in. Utter BS ... and, as HTH noted, THOSE GUYS are the reason for the expansion of the rulebook(s). Days like these I'm glad I'm not PWB! (fixed that for ya) Note to all stage writers. Eliminate a starting position with hands on pistols that are holstered. Just play the game the way it's MEANT to be...instead of trying this borderline "technically legal" crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 LOL, The OP didn't specify which firearm was to be started with. Everyone pressumed pistols. It could've been rifle/SG. Still, it showed the degree of gaming the shooter was willing to go to and got away with. That is how the loophole players play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Cent Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Texas surrender? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Just play the game the way it's MEANT to be...instead of trying this borderline "technically legal" crap. I can not agree more PWB, but you either need to write the loopholes out or have some teeth (penalty) and leadership as TO to discourage such poor behavior. Yes SOG is a penalty but rarely given out. In this case, if no one objected with the shooters starting position , then he proceeds. If TO is wise enough and objected before the beep, then he reholsters and goes on. He just tested the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 When writing stages there are small things that will help prevent things like this. 1. Start shooters holding a small prop with both hands that has to be put down before picking up or drawing first gun. Small gold bag, bucket, reins, shovel, wheel barrow, glass and bottle, cards, hat, hands on prop and you get the point. Not touching guns to start unless stated to do so. 2. Starting position is two steps from shooting position. Make shooter take minimum of two steps to get to shooting position. Doesn't need to be more. Have shooter start behind a prop that requires shooter to move to one side or the other to see targets. I'm just suggesting that the stage writers can write stages that will deal with most of these issues. Over the years the rules have been pushed and the rule book has gotten bigger to try and fix it. (no luck on that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 thanks PWB. I see your point. If i saw someone cock the hammer on the standbye i would start him over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I can not agree more PWB, but you either need to write the loopholes out or have some teeth (penalty) and leadership as TO to discourage such poor behavior. "We" are NOT going to "write the loopholes out" for every single BS trick someone tries to pull on the line. We also cannot monitor every T/O to make certain that they aren't allowing this kind of crap. We hear about it on the Wire, but without knowing WHO is doing this (or allowing it) & WHERE, it will continue until it shows up at a major match somewhere. And "we" will get the whiney excuse that "they let me do it at my home club all the time"...another tiresome response that is a direct result of the "anything goes at the local level" attitude. Yes SOG is a penalty but rarely given out. But there ARE times when it SHOULD BE...IMO. (FWIW - I know who "awarded" the first one at EoT). In this case, if no one objected with the shooters starting position , then he proceeds. If TO is wise enough and objected before the beep, then he reholsters and goes on. He just tested the water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkshaw Fred SASS #36811 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 If a local club does not run their monthly matches by the same rules and enforcements as a major match then they are doing EVERY SHOOTER THERE a DISSERVICE! I am not talking about shorts/boots days when it is 100+ or ugliest Hawaiian Shirt day, but SASS shooting rules! Again, I am not saying that you can't have a certain silly match where rules are 'different' (ie Halloween) but not your regular matches. JMHO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 LOL, The OP didn't specify which firearm was to be started with. Everyone pressumed pistols. It could've been rifle/SG. Still, it showed the degree of gaming the shooter was willing to go to and got away with. That is how the loophole players play. I was on Beartraps posse and I believe the start position was hand on pistols or pistol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 No argument PWB, but if nothing is done (by stage writers) then we are back to square one and this (along with other known loopholes) situation hasn't been fixed. If it happens locally (which it does on occasion as this post demonstrates) then good chances it happens at big matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 thanks PWB. I see your point. If i saw someone cock the hammer on the standbye i would start him over. If you saw someone cock the hammer (without gun being at 45 degrees from horizontal, safely down range) you had better be issuing a MSV and then start him over. From RO I, page 24 and 28 Cocking a revolver before it reaches 45 degrees downrange - MSV Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I could care less if the shooter wanted to start that way. I wouldn't be able to show him in the books where he is wrong so I wouldn't engage in the argument. IF the shooter thinks that's some sort of advantage and worth his character's suicide I'll give him enough rope to hang himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Stage instructions: Starts with long guns staged safely and pistols holstered. Shooter starts with hands on pistols. Scenario in question: Shooter starts with both hands on pistols and pistols raised until tip of muzzle is barely inside holster. Question is not whether it's "gamey", "questionable" or whether you THINK it's a violation of the Spirit of the Game 30 second Penalty. Question is whether it's TECHNICALLY legal or not. Like you were told yesterday at Cajon-NO OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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