Cypress Sun Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I love safety rules that are put in place to prevent safety violations...like the one where shooters at the loading table cannot holster their revolvers until they are called to the line. Don't want to have anyone get SDQ'd for leaving the loading table with loaded revolvers. Not a SASS rule, that's proprietory to the host range. That's because there is no shock collars as was suggested. Same idear with the dropped round rule...don't want anyone to get SDQ'd for breaking the 170... Ain't cause of MOST folks trying to change a dumb rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 The rule needs to be re-written or amended. IE; a dropped round that lands on a table, stage prop or anything that is above waist level, that can be retrieved safely without breaking the 170 rule, can be retrieved without any penalty, any round that has been dropped, that is below waist level, is a DEAD round, and cannot be retrieved. Something like that should make everyone happy. Enjoy. Howdy Jack, Why waist level?? who's waist....36"??.........that waist 32"??........their waist 38"?? No that would not make us happy. All you have to do is follow the Stage Conventions......if someone does an unsafe act there are rules for that, we don't need two rules. Steeldust, without the stipulation, that if the round is on the ground, it cannot be retrieved, someone would be their hands and knees trying to retrieve a round that is on the ground and under a prop. What's wrong with that if done safely?? Someone might be trying for a clean match and could care less about time. Most of us would just pull from the body, but someone might be out of SG shells and need that one under the table I haven't heard of any problems with doing it in WB. Good Luck Jefro Relax-Enjoy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Houston CAS Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Is there any history to how this rule came about in the first place? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I love safety rules that are put in place to prevent safety violations...like the one where shooters at the loading table cannot holster their revolvers until they are called to the line. Don't want to have anyone get SDQ'd for leaving the loading table with loaded revolvers. Not a SASS rule, that's proprietory to the host range. That's because there is no shock collars as was suggested. Same idear with the dropped round rule...don't want anyone to get SDQ'd for breaking the 170... Ain't cause of MOST folks trying to change a dumb rule. Yeah I know it's not a SASS rule...just an example of a Safety Rule meant to prevent a Safety Violation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventura Slim, SASS #35690 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Giving a shooter a MDQ for picking up a dropped shotgun round and trying to load it off the table does not make sense to me either. Mostly happens to us new shooters on the clock. A gentle explanation is perfect on this. I thought this rule was changed at the convention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Giving a shooter a MDQ MSV for picking up a dropped shotgun round and trying to load it off the table does not make sense to me either. Mostly happens to us new shooters on the clock. FWIW - It happens to shooters of ALL levels of experience...and you consider yourself a "new shooter" with a 35k SASS number? A gentle explanation is perfect on this. Explain WHAT, exactly?? When what they did shouldn't be considered a violation unless they commit a more serious (SDQ) offense while doing so? I thought this rule was changed at the convention? It failed to pass by SIX votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I love safety rules that are put in place to prevent safety violations...like the one where shooters at the loading table cannot holster their revolvers until they are called to the line. Don't want to have anyone get SDQ'd for leaving the loading table area with loaded revolvers. Same idear with the dropped round rule...don't want anyone to get SDQ'd for breaking the 170... How far is too far from the loading area? My pet peeve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozarks Ranger, SASS # 39553R Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Would it be faster to reload from the belt than pick the round from the prop/ground? SG knockdowns 4+ etc. ya can always carry more rounds than stated. Load from a box ? pull from belt toss in box and then reach into the box to replace the dropped round. most stages say SG. empty with rounds on person. Any way it might be the same time but it would save a clean match. MHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 At our general membership meeting, I was placed in the position of explaining both sides of the arguments on the proposals So just for giggles - let me present the other side to this debate. Retaining the "Dropped = Dead" rule. A lot is made of the overlap in the dropped round argument - "We already have rules regarding breaking the 170; we do not require a duplicate rule just to try to keep us from breaking another rule" Probably true. But let's look at who the dropped round rule actually affects. Experienced/ skilled shooters are not going to be picking rounds up off of tables and ground - they know that it is faster/ smoother to go with muscle memory and do what they have practiced i.e. go back to the belt. (yes, I know there is that 1 in 1000 time where the dropped round would be faster - but that is an anomaly and everyone knows it) So this rule doesn't really affect the experienced/ skilled shooter. (excepting that 1 in 1000 anomaly). So the shooter that would be going for that dropped round is your less experienced/ less skilled shooter. And these are the shooters more likely to break the 170 or do something unsafe. The rule works as is - there is no reason to eliminate a rule (even an overlap rule) when the most likely result from it's elimination is to encourage lesser experienced shooters to place themselves and others into poor situations. The question you ask; when you lobby the elimination of a rule is not "Can YOU do XYZ safely?" The question you ask is; "Can EVERYBODY involved in the game do XYZ safely?" If the answer is not affirmative - then you don't eliminate rules - even a redundant and overlapping one. If anyone is interested - I can argue the other side as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawd Awful Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 Phantom....I am not contradicting myself. The present rule states, that a dropped round is a dead round. Can a dropped round be retrieved safely by all shooters? That answer is No. The rule, as written now just states a dropped round, period That dropped round could be on the table, stage prop, or on the ground. The rule needs to be re-written or amended. IE; a dropped round that lands on a table, stage prop or anything that is above waist level, that can be retrieved safely without breaking the 170 rule, can be retrieved without any penalty, any round that has been dropped, that is below waist level, is a DEAD round, and cannot be retrieved. Something like that should make everyone happy. Enjoy. My wife's waist is about the same level as mine, but her arms are shorter than mine...... The relation to "the waist" doesn't make an act safe or unsafe. How the shooter goes about retrieving the round from whatever surface it's on does. And I would argue a large number of shooters can safely retrive a round 3 inches below waist level, but only 4 inches forward of of their body better than a round 3 inches above waist level but 18 inches forward and 2 feet off center of their body Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawd Awful Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 I've been a safety instructor of one form or another for the past 25 years. And we have all learned running safety is not one of the things you have instructed 😄 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attica Jack #23953 Posted January 23, 2015 Author Share Posted January 23, 2015 With all this active debate..........is a dropped round still a dead round? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 With all this active debate..........is a dropped round still a dead round? As of this time, Yes. Is there any history to how this rule came about in the first place? As far as I can recall, it developed after a time when any number of shooters, would double stroke their rifle ejecting a round into the air... and then catch it to re-load it in the rifle. Some folks attempting this maneuver couldn't do so without swinging their rifle past a point others felt comfortable with. Same with folks attempting to do the "over-the-top" loading on their '97s, back in the day when that wasn't the normal methodology used... (used to be that nearly EVERYONE loaded one in the port, closed their action and shoved the second in the mag thru the bottom, others just loaded two in the mag). I don't recall if it was Tequila or Evil Roy I saw first using the "single-load" method... But, it was after any number of folks trying to hold their rifle/shotgun by one hand and scarin' the bejesus out of their posse mates that this became an issue... and a new prohibition. Sometime in the mid-1990's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted January 23, 2015 Share Posted January 23, 2015 As far as I can recall, it developed after a time when any number of shooters, would double stroke their rifle ejecting a round into the air... and then catch it to re-load it in the rifle. Some folks attempting this maneuver couldn't do so without swinging their rifle past a point others felt comfortable with. Same with folks attempting to do the "over-the-top" loading on their '97s, back in the day when that wasn't the normal methodology used... (used to be that nearly EVERYONE loaded one in the port, closed their action and shoved the second in the mag thru the bottom, others just loaded two in the mag). I don't recall if it was Tequila or Evil Roy I saw first using the "single-load" method... But, it was after any number of folks trying to hold their rifle/shotgun by one hand and scarin' the bejesus out of their posse mates that this became an issue... and a new prohibition. Sometime in the mid-1990's. I don't get it. They were doing this on purpose because it was faster? I don't suppose anyone has a video handy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 I don't get it. They were doing this on purpose because it was faster? I don't suppose anyone has a video handy. Style points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted January 24, 2015 Share Posted January 24, 2015 At our general membership meeting, I was placed in the position of explaining both sides of the arguments on the proposals So just for giggles - let me present the other side to this debate. Retaining the "Dropped = Dead" rule. A lot is made of the overlap in the dropped round argument - "We already have rules regarding breaking the 170; we do not require a duplicate rule just to try to keep us from breaking another rule" Probably true. But let's look at who the dropped round rule actually affects. Experienced/ skilled shooters are not going to be picking rounds up off of tables and ground - they know that it is faster/ smoother to go with muscle memory and do what they have practiced i.e. go back to the belt. (yes, I know there is that 1 in 1000 time where the dropped round would be faster - but that is an anomaly and everyone knows it) So this rule doesn't really affect the experienced/ skilled shooter. (excepting that 1 in 1000 anomaly). So the shooter that would be going for that dropped round is your less experienced/ less skilled shooter. And these are the shooters more likely to break the 170 or do something unsafe. The rule works as is - there is no reason to eliminate a rule (even an overlap rule) when the most likely result from it's elimination is to encourage lesser experienced shooters to place themselves and others into poor situations. The question you ask; when you lobby the elimination of a rule is not "Can YOU do XYZ safely?" The question you ask is; "Can EVERYBODY involved in the game do XYZ safely?" If the answer is not affirmative - then you don't eliminate rules - even a redundant and overlapping one. If anyone is interested - I can argue the other side as well. here was my response to op earlier, note the underlined Yeah , I think you need to read the other threads on this subject, I've seen a lot of folks pick up dropped rds never once did i see anyone come close to breaking 170 doing it. they were usually told not to use it so act of doing it was already done they just wasted their time doing so and they usually didn't receive penalty msv because rule is never enforced they way is suppost to be, if you move the dropped rd your suppost to get penalty msv.BUT you can bend over touch it , whatever you want without penalty just dont move it and your ok no penalty so what actual good is rule, if you can do everything up to that point, how does it make us safer ? I'm sure Rule was probably put into place to keep folks from breaking 170, but what it does is causes inconsistent calls at matches and doesnt do anything for safety. Regards AO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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