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#4 failing (removing the MSV for retrieving a dropped round) was a heartbreaker for me. IMO, a rule that does zero for improving safety and is commonly inconsistently called. Apparently 63.98% of the clubs who voted feel the same way. These inconsistent calls change the outcome of a match. Many people are reluctant to call it because (IMO) they feel bad about calling something that they know is just giving a penalty for the sake of giving a penalty. I wish I could have been present to hear the boogey-man's-under-the-bed arguments.

 

I am happy to hear that FCGF was approved. A fine example of shooters "sticking to their guns" and shooting the category into reality.

There were a couple of similar votes prior to the passing of FCGF. Stay with the program and you may someday prevail.

 

CR

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#4 failing (removing the MSV for retrieving a dropped round) was a heartbreaker for me. IMO, a rule that does zero for improving safety and is commonly inconsistently called. Apparently 63.98% of the clubs who voted feel the same way. These inconsistent calls change the outcome of a match. Many people are reluctant to call it because (IMO) they feel bad about calling something that they know is just giving a penalty for the sake of giving a penalty. I wish I could have been present to hear the boogey-man's-under-the-bed arguments.

 

I am happy to hear that FCGF was approved. A fine example of shooters "sticking to their guns" and shooting the category into reality.

 

I agree

 

AO

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How would eliminating that rule improve safety?

Gotta ask that one too. Figure that if you have rounds on your person you know where to go to get 'em if'n ya need 'em. Seems pretty safe and consistent.

 

GG

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Many of the problems are caused by people not keeping up with the rules. And or local interpretations. The dropped round thing is pretty clear. The only time you can retrieve a dropped round is at the end of the shooting string, and done safely.

 

Not calling a penalty on someone penalizes all the shooters.

Ike

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I was hoping point 4 would have passed. I should be able to pick up a dropped shotgun shell when it is laying right in front of me on the table. As long as the gun is pointed in a safe direction, it's safe.

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The rule is more than silly, it's rather stupid IMHO.

 

You can pull shells from your belt prematurely, and lay them,(stage them), on the table till ready to use them, them pick them up and use them at the proper time.

 

But you cannot drop a shell on that same table, and pick it up and use it. Makes absolutely no sense.

 

RBK

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Every once in a while you have stages where shotgun rds are placed in a box or possibly saddle bags and you have to fish out and of course maintain muzzle direction (170) and if you don't put enough shells in box or saddle bags you have to remove shells from belt then place in box to use them without penalty.

 

It seems to me the dropped rd rule was created for " what If this happens " very well meaning but safety aspect is covered by 170 .

 

So many times I see shooters grab dropped sg rd and attempt to use and everybody starts yelling do't use it so shooter drops rd and grabs from the belt. how safe is peanut gallery yelling directions to a shooter ? Shooter should actually be penalized for "attempting " to use the dropped rd but rarely called, All the times I've seen this happen I never seen a shooter come close to breaking the 170 with a open empty gun which is why they need the rd to begin with.

 

So please tell how having this rule makes things safer ? Just makes calls inconsistant

 

AO

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I view dropped round rule as just a rule. Don't care if it makes safety sense or not. The rule is just that, a rule of this game, follow it. It is not hard to learn to follow or call. It is faster to go back to the belt for more SG shells. I really don't see many people attempting to pickup a dropped round and the ones that do are lacking in experience.

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I view dropped round rule as just a rule. Don't care if it makes safety sense or not. The rule is just that, a rule of this game, follow it. It is not hard to learn to follow or call. It is faster to go back to the belt for more SG shells. I really don't see many people attempting to pickup a dropped round and the ones that do are lacking in experience.

Yep...just a rule.

 

Thank gawd our rule book is so short and simple...otherwise, this added rule for no reason other then having another rule would make our rulebook unruly.

 

:mellow:

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I view dropped round rule as just a rule. Don't care if it makes safety sense or not.

Some of us DO care.

The rule is just that, a rule of this game, follow it. It is not hard to learn to follow or call.

Then why is it called in so many different ways, depending on the T/O and/or MD?

It is faster to go back to the belt for more SG shells.

Sometimes...sometimes NOT.

I really don't see many people attempting to pickup a dropped round and the ones that do are lacking in experience.

I see it all the time...by shooters of ALL levels of experience.

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I view dropped round rule as just a rule. Don't care if it makes safety sense or not. The rule is just that, a rule of this game, follow it. It is not hard to learn to follow or call. It is faster to go back to the belt for more SG shells. I really don't see many people attempting to pickup a dropped round and the ones that do are lacking in experience.

+1 :D

Funny in golf there is a stupid rule too, you're not supposed to move or pick up your ball......but, but,.. it's in a crappy lie, a divot why can't I move it on this nice green patch of grass.??????

Rugby union & league, you're running forward, but you have to pass the ball backwards???????????? How stupid is that :angry: Why not just pass it in the direction we're going!!

Rules are rules...

In WB the rule is dead opposite, I guess they made it that way to be different from cowboy :) so what if it's stupid.

Be nice if we could just live with what we got for a while. :lol::lol::lol::lol:

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I view dropped round rule as just a rule. Don't care if it makes safety sense or not.

Some of us DO care.

 

That's fine that some do care! If that rule went away, that would be fine too.

 

 

The rule is just that, a rule of this game, follow it. It is not hard to learn to follow or call.

Then why is it called in so many different ways, depending on the T/O and/or MD?

 

T/O and/or MD not 'fully' knowledgeable of the rules or more likely calling it unfairly? There are many more complex rules to follow /understand than this one, so if T/O has trouble with this one, then who knows how they handle the others? and why are they holding the timer? I know, you know and that is another thread.

 

I would admit that just touching the dropped round buys you the penalty is not so good.

 

It is faster to go back to the belt for more SG shells.

Sometimes...sometimes NOT.

 

I have not witnessed or experienced it being faster . Experience, practice and muscle memory tells you to go back to the belt. Can there be a rare case? Yes. Using staged ammo off a table and dropping one is more likely the case. Hmmm, I see staged SG ammo on table about as often as a one shot reload for the pistol.

 

 

 

 

I really don't see many people attempting to pickup a dropped round and the ones that do are lacking in experience.

I see it all the time...by shooters of ALL levels of experience.

 

Well, I don't see it all the time nor very frequently nor by the upper level experienced shooters. So I guess it is the group you and I shoot with.

 

Just a view and of course all rules can be changed if the majority of folks want it and go through the channels.

 

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I was hoping point 4 would have passed. I should be able to pick up a dropped shotgun shell when it is laying right in front of me on the table. As long as the gun is pointed in a safe direction, it's safe.

I picked up a dropped SG round that landed on a table right in front of me at The Cowboys match a few years ago...it was safe.... But I got called on it. I broke the rule.... No big deal. I should not have done it.

 

Like I mentioned in a previous thread I have no problem either way with this one.

 

GG

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I can see a safety issue if a shooter drops a round ON THE GROUND and bends over to pick it up possibly sweeping everyone with whatever gun is in hand. I say just keep the rule the same as it's always been since maybe day one!!

 

Rye ;)

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I can see a safety issue if a shooter drops a round ON THE GROUND and bends over to pick it up possibly sweeping everyone with whatever gun is in hand. I say just keep the rule the same as it's always been since maybe day one!!

 

Rye ;)

There is a penalty for sweeping someone or just breaking the 170. The rule in question is redundant in this instance.
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I can see a safety issue if a shooter drops a round ON THE GROUND and bends over to pick it up possibly sweeping everyone with whatever gun is in hand. I say just keep the rule the same as it's always been since maybe day one!!

 

Rye ;)

 

 

There's a lot of what "if's" in a sport / game where firearms are involved , if we took all the what "if''s" into consideration we might as well stay home because something might happen. :wacko:

 

Some folks mention it's just a rule, well as pointed out by a few it's not called consistently so one posse is going to give a shooter a 10 second penalty for attempting to use a dropped rd while another posse will not give a penalty for same thing within the same match. :blink:

 

Regards AO

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shooter loads 2 in his '97. because of a problem with the gun he jacks out first one and it lands on table in front of him. the second shell doesn't feed and he grabs it out of the port and puts shell on the table. he fixes the problem and he goes to grab one of the shells but he better be careful. with both shells next to each other on the table if he grabs shell one he gets a safety. if he grabs shell 2 he is good to go. how is one shell safe and the other not?

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There's a lot of what "if's" in a sport / game where firearms are involved , if we took all the what "if''s" into consideration we might as well stay home because something might happen. :wacko:

 

Some folks mention it's just a rule, well as pointed out by a few it's not called consistently so one posse is going to give a shooter a 10 second penalty for attempting to use a dropped rd while another posse will not give a penalty for same thing within the same match. :blink:

 

Regards AO

He nailed it.

 

KK

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shooter loads 2 in his '97. because of a problem with the gun he jacks out first one and it lands on table in front of him. the second shell doesn't feed and he grabs it out of the port and puts shell on the table. he fixes the problem and he goes to grab one of the shells but he better be careful. with both shells next to each other on the table if he grabs shell one he gets a safety. if he grabs shell 2 he is good to go. how is one shell safe and the other not?

Good example.

 

KK

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There is a penalty for sweeping someone or just breaking the 170. The rule in question is redundant in this instance.

 

That's my issue with the rule. I actually caught a rifle-ejected round in the air while my rifle was still pointed safely down range and was immediately told to drop the round because of the rule. In that instance, i would have saved time. Now if my round ejects and goes rolling away on the floor, it would be faster to load off my belt, so I wouldn't have gone crawling on the floor.

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That's my issue with the rule. I actually caught a rifle-ejected round in the air while my rifle was still pointed safely down range and was immediately told to drop the round because of the rule. In that instance, i would have saved time. Now if my round ejects and goes rolling away on the floor, it would be faster to load off my belt, so I wouldn't have gone crawling on the floor.

 

This is a perfect example of how the rule is not enforced properly. You actually bought the penalty when you caught the round in the air. At that point, since the round was brought to the line in an approved manner, and you already incurred the penalty, the "Lazarus Rule" comes into effect and use of the round does not cause you any additional penalties. No, I am not making this up. Look at the discussion thread about this item from before the vote. I seem to recall that Palewolf used something similar as an example.

 

I am sure Palewolf will let me know if my dismembery is funtional or not. :P

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Yep, you buy the penalty as soon as you grab the round. Might as well use it then since it's in your fist. There's no penalty for using it. This is one reason I'd like to see this rule go away; many folks don't apply the penalty properly.

 

Laz

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That is so.

 

The penalty "kicks in" when the round is actually RETRIEVED...which, in re a dropped round that lands on a prop (or the ground) involves actually MOVING the round once it is "in hand".

Catching an ejected round in the air would incur the same MSV penalty...whether it is used or not (so the shooter might as well use it once it's "retrieved")

Simply TOUCHING the round is NOT considered retrieval...but any of those actions "might" cause loss of muzzle control...which is actually quite rare in my experience.

NONE of the examples of either attempted or actual retrieval that I've seen have ended up with a 170º violation SDQ...but, if the round was actually picked up (moved) the MSV was assessed.

 

HOWEVER (and here's where the INCONSISTENCY comes to play), there are some T/Os (including, at one time, some members of the governing body) who were of the opinion that the penalty didn't apply unless the round was actually USED.

That is NOT how the rule is written, nor how it should be applied.

Others simply see the rule for what it is...and refuse to penalize a shooter at all ... which is unfair to anyone who IS penalized at that same match by a different T/O.

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BTW - The concern about someone picking up a round from the ground and "sweeping everyone on the posse" is, IMO, a "red herring" as it would be such a rare circumstance that a shooter would even ATTEMPT doing so that it shouldn't even be a consideration in DELETING the current pre-emptive rule (that, as all know by now, is covered under a number of other REAL safety rules).

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BTW - The concern about someone picking up a round from the ground and "sweeping everyone on the posse" is, IMO, a "red herring" as it would be such a rare circumstance that a shooter would even ATTEMPT doing so that it shouldn't even be a consideration in DELETING the current pre-emptive rule (that, as all know by now, is covered under a number of other REAL safety rules).

I agree completely. I was at one of my first matches and dropped a shotgun round on the ground. I was still new and didn't even think about the penalty. I retrieved the round and was told to drop it before I could chamber it. I was assessed the penalty after. While it would have been much faster to get the round from my belt, my brain didn't think of that and just went for the shell. No one was swept, the muzzle was pointed down range at the target the entire time. The only thing unsafe about the act would have been my rear end had I been wearing spurs.

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BTW - The concern about someone picking up a round from the ground and "sweeping everyone on the posse" is, IMO, a "red herring" as it would be such a rare circumstance that a shooter would even ATTEMPT doing so that it shouldn't even be a consideration in DELETING the current pre-emptive rule (that, as all know by now, is covered under a number of other REAL safety rules).

The most amusing part of the argument referenced above is that under the current rules, I can stop in the middle of a stage, drop a shotgun shell on the ground, bend down and touch it without a penalty. But somehow if I happen to pick it up I have committed a "minor" safety infraction.

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shooter loads 2 in his '97. because of a problem with the gun he jacks out first one and it lands on table in front of him. the second shell doesn't feed and he grabs it out of the port and puts shell on the table. he fixes the problem and he goes to grab one of the shells but he better be careful. with both shells next to each other on the table if he grabs shell one he gets a safety. if he grabs shell 2 he is good to go. how is one shell safe and the other not?

ever seen it happen?

 

I've seen a safety penalty given for just touching the dropped SG round that was still on the table. PWB clarified that in #94.

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ever seen it happen?

 

I've seen a safety penalty given for just touching the dropped SG round that was still on the table. PWB clarified that in #94.

Yes I have seen it happen.... Twice. Once I was TO and had to call it
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Yes I have seen it happen.... Twice. Once I was TO and had to call it

He jacked one out, pulled one out of port and set it down, and then picked up the wrong one? OK, it sure is possible.

 

I believe i only know of one shooter left in my area that still loads two shells (port and one in mag) into a 97 at a time.

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He jacked one out, pulled one out of port and set it down, and then picked up the wrong one? OK, it sure is possible.

 

I believe i only know of one shooter left in my area that still loads two shells (port and one in mag) into a 97 at a time.

What about bird launchers? We have several shooters around here who are very proficient at loading two into the 97. Dapper Dan comes to mind, sometimes hard to figure out how he was able to get two shots out of one shell :D

 

CR

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What about bird launchers? We have several shooters around here who are very proficient at loading two into the 97. Dapper Dan comes to mind, sometimes hard to figure out how he was able to get two shots out of one shell :D

 

CR

true about a case where one would load two into a 97.

 

I pull 3 or 4 and still single load through port for fliers.

 

But, back to the topic, if you are shooting at a flier and you jack one out, and/or fubar the second, you will have missed the bird and prob not be reaching down for placed rd on table.

 

I agree, it can happen as the op stated.

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