Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

cap and ball what's the call


Fordyce Beals

Recommended Posts

What happened:

 

During pistol sequence, pulling the trigger on the left Remington NMA cap and ball and allowing the hammer to fall results in a click only. You see this all the time with cartridge guns and the shooter just snaps off dry fires to light off the un-discharged chamber.

 

So thinking exactly like like Griff SASS# 93 said:

 

"I don't dry-fire my C&Bs, EVER. If a chamber doesn't have a cap, I'm not going to allow the hammer to fall on that nipple... I'm going to go by it, and on to the next chamber... if that one doesn't have a cap... again, I'm dropping the hammer with my thumb and will continue to go around... asking me to damage my hammer or nipples in some idea of I HAVE to pull the trigger and let the hammer fall"

 

 

 

Not doing as said by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L

 

"Approved methods for "decocking"; both of which involve PULLING THE TRIGGER in order to lower the hammer.

 

1) Point the firearm safely downrange & pull the trigger (letting the hammer drop freely as in actually firing the gun)

 

OR (What I also did not do )

 

2) Point the firearm safely downrange & pull the trigger while easing the hammer down with the thumb (requires RO supervision)"

 

 

 

IE I did not ask for RO supervision and I thumbed down the hammer several times to the chamber that still had a cap and let the hammer fall with a BANG- Clang because I was thinking from the RO2 manual:

 

The Chief Range Officer shall be prepared for the unique problems associated with

cap and ball revolvers. These items include potential hang-fires, cap only ignition,

and a complete failure to fire. In a cap only ignition and failure to fire, the

Frontiersman should be allowed to continue firing the remaining chambers. The CRO

shall not confuse these occurrences as potential squib loads. Misfires during the Course

of fire by Frontiersman will require the Chief Range Officer to accommodate clearing the

gun after completing the stage.

 

No SDQ was called. I think that was wrong based on what Pale Wolf said.

 

So now What's your call?

 

Fordyce Beals

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyone that would call a penalty on what you did shouldn't be RO'ing. Another thing you can do with a C&B is put the hammer on half cock, reach up with your off hand and rotate the cylinder so the cap is where it needs to be to rotate under the hammer. Make sure you have removed your off hand and pull the hammer to full cock and fire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Obviously, I AGREE, it should be a "No Call." 1st and foremost, almost all C&B shooters in this (or any sport using them), have full strength hammer springs... you don't get reliable ignition with lightened mainsprings. Ergo, the hammer steel being harder than most of the nipples and I'd say all the SS nipples, you'll peen those nipples down pretty quickly if you dry fire... don't ask how I know this... my quote above should have read, "...anymore!"

 

Secondly, as Larsen noted, by using the off hand you can control the de-cocking to half-cock and spin the cylinder back around and keep the muzzle under control better, then continue on.

 

The only time it becomes problematic, and then not necessarily so if the shooter keeps their head about them, is shooting gun-fighter. But, you can avoid any penalty easily by setting the other pistol down on a prop and proceeding as above, or, in the case of a double cocker, firing off the other pistol, then setting it down. Some term this a "train wreck"... I prefer the much maligned "learning experience"!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only time it becomes problematic, and then not necessarily so if the shooter keeps their head about them, is shooting gun-fighter. But, you can avoid any penalty easily by setting the other pistol down on a prop and proceeding as above, or, in the case of a double cocker, firing off the other pistol, then setting it down. Some term this a "train wreck"... I prefer the much maligned "learning experience"!

You think like I do. I was shooting Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter style with cap and ball and at the more typical cap jam, shoot the good gun dry, holster, then resolve the jam at half cock with both hands. Then you don't de-cock. This time I saw the un fired cap at the 9th shot and de-cocked around. The victory is not getting a miss or procedural!

 

Fordyce

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...1st and foremost, almost all C&B shooters in this (or any sport using them), have full strength hammer springs

Griff, put me in the almost bucket ... Years ago Alessandro Pietta sent me a pair of '58 NMA hammer springs that dropped the hammer force and still will ignite the caps:

Stock Hammer Pull ... 9.50 pounds

New Hammer Pull ..... 5.14 pounds ... 46% Reduction :)

The lighter mainspring for the Pietta 1858 were code #P1858 $14.95, The lighter ones for the Uberti 1875 Remington were code #187501 $14.95

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You think like I do. I was shooting Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter style with cap and ball and at the more typical cap jam, shoot the good gun dry, holster, then resolve the jam at half cock with both hands. Then you don't de-cock. This time I saw the un fired cap at the 9th shot and de-cocked around. The victory is not getting a miss or procedural!

 

Fordyce

 

I don't understand the reason for "de-cocking around" to the unfired cap. Gunfighter methods for resolving malfunctions are applicable to both cartridge and C&B

...as Larsen noted, put the revolver on ½-cock; then manually index to just before the loaded/capped chamber, cock & fire.

 

That said, IMO...decocking to avoid damaging either the nipples or the hammer SHOULD BE considered one of the "unique problems" in regard to percussion firearms.

 

FWIW - The instructions for all of my Howell cartridge conversions state to NEVER "dry fire" on an empty chamber as it is possible to severely damage one (or more) of the firing pin bushings.

 

BEST ADVICE: ALWAYS get some kind of acknowledgement from the T/O BEFORE DE-COCKING a firearm...for whatever reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you pull the trigger and the cap does not go off, you then pull the hammer to half cock.

Rotate the cylinder to bring up a capped chamber then cock and fire that chamber, you have not de-cocked the firearm.

 

If you use the hammer to rotate the cylinder past chambers to bring up the capped chamber, you are de-cocking.

 

It was also explained to me by Old Scout, that a properly tuned C&B hammer to nipple would have a slight clearance.

The hammer would never touch the nipples.

This is good BUT the hammer hits the frame with enough force to damage the back of the receiver in time.

 

So, again, No dry firing with out some sort of cushion over the nipples to take up the impact.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pale Wolf

 

Thank you for your service to understanding the rules. I always want to play by the rules so when I was decocking around it allowed the issue to be resolved with one hand but it was not allowed under the current rules. The two handed resolution is what I will use in the future.

 

Fordyce Beals

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyone that would call a penalty on what you did shouldn't be RO'ing. Another thing you can do with a C&B is put the hammer on half cock, reach up with your off hand and rotate the cylinder so the cap is where it needs to be to rotate under the hammer. Make sure you have removed your off hand and pull the hammer to full cock and fire.

Yup

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not arguing the point, but just so I'm clear...

 

De-cock a cartridge pistol without TO supervision or whatever = SDQ

De-cock a cap gun without TO supervision = No call. All the time, or just if you're going around to an unfired chamber?

 

Lastly, I don't shoot cap guns, don't have much experience with them, if you ever come up to the line shooting cap guns and I am running the timer, please let me know so that I can have someone else time you. I do the best I can but I'm not going to pretend to understand the ins and outs of problems you can have with cap guns, much less would my mind instantly go to 'de-cocking to get to unfired chamber' when I saw someone de-cock.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not arguing the point, but just so I'm clear...

 

De-cock a cartridge pistol without TO supervision or whatever = SDQ

De-cock a cap gun without TO supervision = No call. All the time, or just if you're going around to an unfired chamber?

I wouldn't completely rely on those opinions expressed here (including my own) that percussion revolvers SHOULD BE exempt from the "decocking" SDQ...at least until the ROC confirms (and publishes) such exemption in the rules.

Or, at least, until precedent has been set at a match upon appeal.

As I noted above...it would be BEST to ONLY decock under the "direct supervision" of the T/O...whether using cartridge or percussion arms.

 

Lastly, I don't shoot cap guns, don't have much experience with them, if you ever come up to the line shooting cap guns and I am running the timer, please let me know so that I can have someone else time you. I do the best I can but I'm not going to pretend to understand the ins and outs of problems you can have with cap guns, much less would my mind instantly go to 'de-cocking to get to unfired chamber' when I saw someone de-cock.

Many T/O's general unfamiliarity with percussion firearms is why I made that previous statement.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Call me stupid but what do you mean by de-cocking? If my last (5th) cap fails to fire, I can't just cock, pull trigger until I get that chamber back around under the hammer? I've seen folks do this a lot with both cartridge and cap guns. Shooting gunfighter one time I had to go around twice with my right hand gun to get a cap to fire. I will say my thumb was getting tired by then. :)

 

As far as dry fire damage goes, it's my gun. As long as it's pointed safely downrange it's nobody else's business what I may or may not be doing to my cones.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.