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SASS HAS BIGGER FISH TO FRY


Judge Gardner

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I will take you up on that with one condition....

You gotta be on that posse as well so I can shoot with ya again.

Deal?

 

Regards

 

:FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

 

Of course!!!! :wub::wub: :wub:

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Great video, Kid, now, do you have something showing slow shooters enjoying the game?

 

No really, I mean it. I can't tell you the number of times I've shown videos like this to non-SASS members and almost to a man (or woman) they say, "Gee that's great, but I'll never be able to do that." Then I have to say, "Well, I'm not that fast and neither are most of my shooting buddies." But it doesn't matter, unless I can get them out to a match, most won't bother to give SASS a second glance.

 

While these type of videos really appeal to prospective members who are competitive, re: current or former USPSA, IPSC, 3-gun, the same video will turn off someone who is looking for a comfortable, relaxing shooting sport. People who come from buckskinning, NCOWS (I know, a dirty word), or just plinkers, look at something like this and say, "What's in it for me?" Maybe they want to socialize more than shoot, maybe they are looking for a sport that they can dress up in period correct or Hollywood western gear and not care about their scores, maybe they are into peering down the sights and placing each bullet in the same spot.

 

You'll say, "But they can do all that in SASS." You're right, but the videos don't show it. IF you can get someone to a match, you can hook them on the sport, but the videos are not helpful to the above types of shooters.

 

 

Ok in fact we all have a video of slower folks shooting.......it was aired a couple of weeks ago......2014 Winter Range on Shooting USA.

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DID.... that was just a downright ugly remark...... just because I was shooting WR 2014 is no reason to rub it in.

 

Snakebite

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Great video, Kid, now, do you have something showing slow shooters enjoying the game?

 

No really, I mean it. I can't tell you the number of times I've shown videos like this to non-SASS members and almost to a man (or woman) they say, "Gee that's great, but I'll never be able to do that." Then I have to say, "Well, I'm not that fast and neither are most of my shooting buddies." But it doesn't matter, unless I can get them out to a match, most won't bother to give SASS a second glance.

 

While these type of videos really appeal to prospective members who are competitive, re: current or former USPSA, IPSC, 3-gun, the same video will turn off someone who is looking for a comfortable, relaxing shooting sport. People who come from buckskinning, NCOWS (I know, a dirty word), or just plinkers, look at something like this and say, "What's in it for me?" Maybe they want to socialize more than shoot, maybe they are looking for a sport that they can dress up in period correct or Hollywood western gear and not care about their scores, maybe they are into peering down the sights and placing each bullet in the same spot.

 

You'll say, "But they can do all that in SASS." You're right, but the videos don't show it. IF you can get someone to a match, you can hook them on the sport, but the videos are not helpful to the above types of shooters.

 

Really, IB, that's where you went with my post? I was merely suggesting that videos like these can be helpful to bringing in youth to the sport by showing that it can be fast and fun. Most people who have never seen something like this wouldn't believe it to be true. Pretty sure there are plenty videos of people having a good time not shooting fast. Isn't our goal to get more into the sport? That was what this was....an idea! By the way, chances are the guy that won't come out, isn't gonna shoot, might want to move on to the next guy.

 

I have an idea, work with your club to make a promo, to appeal to some shooters, or you could just sit behind your keyboard and flame me. Whatever, things like this are what keep youth away. Being blasted by those from the previous generations for having an opinion that is different.

 

I'm gonna keep practicing, getting faster and having fun, because I love this game!

 

See you on the range!

Whiskey Kid

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No intention to flame, sorry if you took it that way. Just trying to explain an alternative to the "let's show everyone really, really fast shooting." It those other videos are available, more power to you and whoever has them, but they've never been shown around my neck of the woods. As for programs on Shooting USA, don't have that channel.

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So many of those shooting shows never show the top shooters when it comes to SASS.

Sometimes I wonder how the pick who they do.

Now not always. Sometimes they will show a fast one.

 

But I think those shows has done us a disservice by what they focus on most of the time.

 

I think the video WK posted is GREAT. That is what we need. I like it.

Am going to try and get our club to make one like it. (most of us are not that fast as those in that one)

Think that video is right on track.

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We host annual summer matches for newbies, buckaroos and buckarettes.

 

We are also working with the NRA to reinstate the CAS programme that was so successful in the Great Salt Lake Council, BSA. If we can get it approved, the plan is to eventually have up to 1,000 Scouts on the line each session.

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Deuce's points are well taken. WK's video is impressive. The Winter Range video showed all aspects of cowboy shooting. Like Deuce said we do not want to lose our focus on cowboy shooting, but I also have to agree not to many people have any idea what it is about. We need more exposure. What appealed to our family was the competitive side of cowboy action. But it was refreshing to shoot with the quality of the individuals in SASS. That means all the individuals, whether they are in it for the competition or just love the old west and want to shoot their firearms. How many clubs or shooters call in their results to the newspapers? How many have invited your local newspaper to come out to a match? Our local photographer really enjoys shooting our firearms and it doesn't take much to get him to photograph the kids. We work at it. For the last three years the kids have put on exhibitions for the National Day of the Cowboy in main street Sedona using blanks. I don't know what an impact we have made on membership, but I have seen individuals who are not shooters come out to see the matches. All of us need to work on marketing all the aspects of SASS!

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Ok in fact we all have a video of slower folks shooting.......it was aired a couple of weeks ago......2014 Winter Range on Shooting USA.

Just who are you calling out, DID? Trash talking already....I did check the WHO'S COMING list and don't recall seeing you on it! I sure hope that's wrong as there are world problems need solving and we'd miss your steely-eyed analysis.

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Been hitting the CAS range since I was 20 and now at 33 have seen a whole lot of changes in the game. I got started on my own, my folks are not shooters I loved cowboys, western history etc. and that was the draw for me. While I think it's important to have youth in the game (gonna have a little one of my own shooting with me very soon) I am also of the opinion that they will not make or break our game. In the last 13 years I have seen a whole bunch of "kids" come and go. College, jobs and relationships had the most to do with them no longer shooting. It always concerns me when I see folks wanting to make changes in our game or want to "improve" things in the name of getting younger folks in. We have never been a mainstream game nor will we ever. Getting modern gun competitors to give our sport a second look is always going to be tough. I don't want the core identity of SASS and CAS to change in a attempt to increase numbers. We had a influx of shooters once that was incredible and I think we could have it again. But it won't be easy, and it won't come from "modernizing" our game. This is a amateur shooting sport. The allure of completion can be fleeting, especially for those that depend on it keeping them interested. In 2010 my wife was carrying my son. I was at the height of my practice schedule. My goal was top overall at Winter Range that year, I wanted it so bad I was consumed with it. Well I was blessed enough to accomplish my goal. But I have never felt such a strange feeling. Proud but underwhelmed. I still had to pay for my own gas on the way out of town LOL. I didn't expect any more but I didn't expect to feel the way I did either. It really put the game back into perspective for me. I had always been involved with my local club and by that time had already had a few years of being the MD of our state shoot. But I rediscovered why I started shooting in the first place and the relationships and the desire to give back took over my desire to be competitive. I get more excited about helping a new guy get outfitted and helping folks improve their shooting skills than I do about winning any match. If we try to make changes that are based on competitive results and hoping that it keeps people interested I think many would be disappointed in the results. What holds folks is what brought so very many of us to the game to begin with. The opportunity to get away from the real world and put some ammo downrange in a friendly supporting environment that allowed you to be as slow or as fast as you want cause at the end of the day it all pays the same. Don't get me wrong when the beep goes off I give it all I have still to this day whether it's EOT or the local match. I guess the core of what I'm trying to say is that in my experience the competition and results based on that are not enough to keep folks in it for years to come, there has to be another hook. We have it. It's up to the shooters to embrace it. I'm sure many will disagree and feel free to flame away. Just wanted to share my thoughts in the most honest and frank way that I know how. I am sure there are spelling and punctuation errors throughout as I have been accused of being a scholar. Happy new year to all.

While I am always humbled by the sheer humanity involved in the hearts of those who love this game so much that even after having to borrow gas money to get home after winning all the marbles they show up again to write stages, set targets, weld props and foster more champions that may even beat them; it is also the reason that SASS will likely succumb to the end that the preponderance of the opinions in this thread predict. (yes, I did read the entire thing).

 

That reason is simple, and it's also part of what is so UN- American about this most American sport. What can be more American than cowboys, guns, like minded folks occupied in good- natured competition? Well, it's the money. Look at the growth of 3 gun and IDPA. Matches that sell out in 30 minutes. Prize tables, etc. Do people shoot in order to get money and prizes....well, in a word....DUHHH. Yes, it can also be the very thing that causes an untimely death and a nasty atmosphere.

 

And SASS has avoided those things AND THE PUBLICITY THAT BIG COMPANY SPONSORSHIPS BUY like the plague. I wish I had a dollar for everyone that I've described SASS to that has said, "OH! Like 3 gun with cowboy guns? That sounds fun! Why don't I ever see it on TV?" And just give any gal a chance to dress up...and be courted by a cowboy as a gentleman to a lady. Seems simple- and we have run hard on "simple" for a long, long time.

 

It's not that we've run out of avid, passionate players- it's just that borrowing money to make a $300 shoot where if you win it going away you'll get a nice buckle at best starts to take a toll on all but the very most passionate volunteers....and even the facility itself has largely been built by donations of one form or another. The kids that do come up as awesome world competitors in SASS have to find other gun sports to make a living. Holy Terror would be as fine an example of that as could be used as example. She's now won about everything there is to win on every continent. And shoots SASS as time permits.

 

See...when you turn your back on the wave...you better be paddling like a demon to catch it or it will either pass you by or knock that crap out of you.

 

Before you jump up to flame over "WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF WE PUT MONEY IN IT" and "O! M! F! G! if you put $$ in it I'm out" it's not what I'm suggesting. Because I'll be shooting something no matter what....I just love to shoot. I love BEING a cowboy- I have been western all my life and won't be changing anytime soon.

 

Money is like water. It abhors a void...it moves to fill it... and something will fill it. It's just a matter of time.

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Last night my five year old son approached me with his double action cap gun all holstered up in his new cowboy rig. He said, "Dad, say the cowboy thing."

 

I said, "Shooter ready ..... standbyyy ..... beeeeeep"

 

He drew his cap gun and cracked off 8 quick shots .... then re-holstered the toy with a giant smile on his face and asked, "How'd I do"

 

In my opinion, parental influence is the only way to bring meaningful numbers of kids into the sport.

 

If you have kids or grand kids ..... TAKE THEM SHOOTING! Even if your kids are full grown adults with families of their own - plan a family outing to the range and see if anyone gets hooked.

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I doubt that the majority of SASS shooters had even heard of 3 Gun before they started playing in the CAS game, but I suppose it all depends upon the crowd that one runs with. No doubt that some areas have more folks with prior exposure than others.... any how... I'm not looking at getting into some pissing contest with anyone because I disagree with them....I just don't need it, but, I don't believe that bringing money into the game would help as much as it would hurt. JMO... and anyone can have an opinion.

 

Mud Marine: You hit upon something that I have absolutely believed to be true for MANY years. Cowboy Action Shooting's best chance of surviving the Long Haul is to somehow get itself affiliated with the NRA. No doubt that since SASS is a private business, that it is doubtful that it will happen. (and I'm NOT knocking SASS, I support them strongly). But.. such a melding with the NRA would bring about a number of changes, some good, and some bad, but also there is no doubt that CAS is a virtual "Turnkey" operation that if actively promoted by the NRA would see another period of rapid growth. I don't know if it is too late in the game for such or not but operating under the moniker of the NRA would, IMO, cement a permanent place in the shooting games of the Nation. There was a point a few years back where that possibility was closer than some folks thought.

 

Snakebite

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Tried to stay out because no opinions are going to be changed here. So I will look at this as my vote. Money will not help this sport. This sport is Carried by people that are out to have some Fun at a friendly Game. Yes there is a small percentage of shooters that compete for the overal but there is not enough of them to keep this game going. Also age is relative. People start at all ages and come and go for different reasons. Provide a fun game with a friendly atmosphere and promote it as often as possible. That's something we call all do.

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3Gun is no overnight sensation. It developed out the relatively short-lived SOF matches that were happening in SoCal and AZ in the late '70s & '80s... And whereas there is maybe 75-100 (more?) American manufacturers of guns to play that game to draw from... (equipment & prize money, etc.); there are how many American firms of cowboy guns? AND, ALL THREE of them have been involved at one time or another. Along with the major foreign manufacturers.

 

And there are 3-Gun matches that are NOT highly attended, some that are branching out trying to attract some of the older crowd... with divisions like "Heavy Metal", where your WWII guns are necessary (Garand, 1911, & 1897 or mdl 12), or where VN-era weaponry is required (AR, 1911, 870 or 500), as well as the normal open and limited divisions. The economy is hurting nearly all leisure time sports. I don't think we've seen the last of it either.

 

Sure, there's no problem that can't be "fixed" when enough money is thrown at it... but is that really the best long-term, viable solution? Or, in other words, is there really a problem?

 

This sport has been promoted in press, on air and by word-of-mouth for as long as it's existed. I read about the 1st EOT in Guns & Ammo sometime in 1982... it took me 3 years to find out where... 'cause 'what's-his-name' was somewhat cryptic about where & who put it on. Or I'd have been playing the next month! The first year I attended EOT there were about 300 shooters... up by a factor of 6 or 7 over the usual monthly matches at Coto De Caza. And was about the maximum the facility could handle.

 

During the entire length of my involvement I've heard the comment: "where've ya'll been, I just read about this..." Our club has sponsored booths at local gun shows, posted flyers in gun stores, has had articles in the local newspaper... we've not been on local tv that I know of... maybe not recently, I don't know... but... all those avenues are still out there... it just takes one dedicated individual to do the work.

 

I'm sad that the Chronicle is only on-line, as that was a great way to spread the word... take a few back issues into the office and leave it in the breakroom... might not have been more'n lining for someone's birdcage, but there was never one left at the end of the 1st day.

 

WE are the sport's best asset, it's best spokespeople... and if our numbers are suffering, the reason why.

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Not sure how to read the tea leaves. My heart wants to keep everything the way it is, but even in the period we're emulating there were changes afoot. Automobiles, semi auto pistols, machine guns were being embraced. Hell, they even started using smokeless powder! The cadre that wants to keep the game alive must recognize that small changes are inevitable. If wholesale change takes place, then it might be time for me to move on or regress into NCOWS, a move I've resisted due to the tight rules about clothing and.

 

Change may be inevitable, but I don't have to change. I'm with Deuce. This is a hobby with strong friendships that make it so endearing. If it becomes about the money, it will loose it's charm.

 

CR

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Not sure how to read the tea leaves. My heart wants to keep everything the way it is, but even in the period we're emulating there were changes afoot. Automobiles, semi auto pistols, machine guns were being embraced. Hell, they even started using smokeless powder! The cadre that wants to keep the game alive must recognize that small changes are inevitable. If wholesale change takes place, then it might be time for me to move on or regress into NCOWS, a move I've resisted due to the tight rules about clothing and.

 

Change may be inevitable, but I don't have to change. I'm with Deuce. This is a hobby with strong friendships that make it so endearing. If it becomes about the money, it will loose it's charm.

 

CR

 

Aye aye pard! :)

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Gonna need a LOT bigger rule book if we start shooting for money .... just sayin'

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Gonna need a LOT bigger rule book if we start shooting for money .... just sayin'

 

Shooter gets no coaching, and fewer categories. May not be all that bad!

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I think Deuce said it best, looking forward to his kids to hit the range with him. That really is the future of all the shooting sports. I've been doing this for 12 years and have had my son involved since he was 10. My daughter is starting this year. We have a great sport for families, we shoot with a number of families and kids, sure it can get expensive, it has taken me years to get the equipment we have, but we have a great opportunity to help educate people about shooting and maybe even a little bit of our countries history while we are at it. My 2 cents

Swan

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I'm just not of the belief that this is a zero sum game...where you can't do some modernization without taking away from the "Charm" of CAS.

 

Coming up with solutions to broaden the base of our market won't be easy...successful operations never are easy to come by. Wish I was smart enough to have solutions, but I am smart enough to know that there are some really smart/creative/innovative folks out there that can offer solutions...if we are willing to listen and not shut out the idea that CAS/SASS doesn't have to stay exactly as it is to remain loyal to it's "Core Identity".

 

Phantom

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Most folks have never heard of CAS. I speak with people and they think it's fast draw or we shoot blanks. The worst thing SASS could have done is that silly wax bullet shoot at the convention, makes us look like we shoot wax bullets. What happened around 1999-2003 when we had major growth? Things were really clicking then and then things seemed to stall. I have brought out a few shooters recently and supplied guns and ammo, they had a great time. However, they have not gone out and bought firearms or other gear.

One guy has never shot at a match, he's waiting to get all his gear and learn the ropes before he comes out to shoot.

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I think Deuce said it best, looking forward to his kids to hit the range with him. That really is the future of all the shooting sports. I've been doing this for 12 years and have had my son involved since he was 10. My daughter is starting this year. We have a great sport for families, we shoot with a number of families and kids, sure it can get expensive, it has taken me years to get the equipment we have, but we have a great opportunity to help educate people about shooting and maybe even a little bit of our countries history while we are at it. My 2 cents

Swan

Good post. Still want to get my daughter in vault but she has so many things going on as a freshman in high school. Pretty confident though that she'll take the bait and will be shooting together soon.

 

GG

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Most folks have never heard of CAS. I speak with people and they think it's fast draw or we shoot blanks. The worst thing SASS could have done is that silly wax bullet shoot at the convention, makes us look like we shoot wax bullets. What happened around 1999-2003 when we had major growth? Things were really clicking then and then things seemed to stall. I have brought out a few shooters recently and supplied guns and ammo, they had a great time. However, they have not gone out and bought firearms or other gear.

One guy has never shot at a match, he's waiting to get all his gear and learn the ropes before he comes out to shoot.

 

2004, the AWB sunsetted.

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I think having 25,000 paid attendance at EOT really help promote the game...would love to figure out how to get that kind of attendance at NM. When you have an event that large, ya get attention.

 

Phantom

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AWB????

 

Assault Weapon Ban. Which allowed normal capacity mags back into the hands of civilians. That allowed 3-Gun to really take off.

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We also need to stop all the political crap going on among clubs, it's a turn off to new or potential shooters and they don't know where to shoot or who the good guys are. People need to realize they are not getting rich by putting on a match, there is no power, only big egos. It's hard work putting on a match with no financial compensation. Learn to be nice to others and don't alienate potential shooters.

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Way too much on here for me to read, so if I'm missing something, sorry.

 

I just watched Whiskey's link to Dan's video.

 

FANTASTIC!!

 

I've been bringing my two nephews (15 & 17) out to shoot regularly for a year or so. I loaned their parents a set of guns and they found some cheap leather on the wire.

They love it, everybody enjoys having them around. One of them's getting really fast and now is doing my reloading for me (and he's excellent at it).

 

They're going to LOVE the video. Thanks for making it. Need to get to Florida to shoot with you guys.

 

Kit

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I think having 25,000 paid attendance at EOT really help promote the game...would love to figure out how to get that kind of attendance at NM. When you have an event that large, ya get attention.

 

Phantom

+1

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It is great to hear shooters mention their children. I love shooting with my kids and I hope they appreciate shooting with their dad. It really is a family event. Hells Comin has been bringing his grandson to some shoots. He may start soon. We got involved after watching my brother and nephew shoot. Now we see each other more often and shoot together. Kids get involved in other sports and may take time off their shooting. If they are hooked, they are really hooked. What an adrenaline rush! It is an activity they can do the rest of their lives if they choose to. If they stop, they will have many memories with their parents and grandparents. Exposure to cowboy shooting is a key. To have 25,000 in paid attendance would be incredible. Only wish I could have participated.

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Chipmunks and Crickets were my sons (55550 & 55551) first guns followed by Bearcats and hammered .410 doubles. The only change for my granddaughter (76796) was a pink rifle stock! My grandson(93415) is using his Dad's guns.

 

Cowboy outfits are a great part of the fun and my granddaughter loves to shop with her non shooting Mommy..

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Our club has sponsored booths at local gun shows, posted flyers in gun stores, has had articles in the local newspaper... we've not been on local tv that I know of... maybe not recently, I don't know... but... all those avenues are still out there... it just takes one dedicated individual to do the work.

 

work in pairs, got ideas

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work in pairs, got ideas

Our club has sponsored booths at local gun shows, posted flyers in gun stores, has had articles in the local newspaper... we've not been on local tv that I know of... maybe not recently, I don't know... but... all those avenues are still out there... it just takes one dedicated individual to do the work.

 

IIRC, the SASS Office provided us lots of literature and handouts... I don't recall that we had any videos or such, just printed materials... I do know that I handed out several VHS tapes showing various shoots in CA and our then new shoots in TX... Would have liked to have some of them returned... but alas... they're in the wind. And yes, we usually had at least 2 people in the booth at a time!

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