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Jess Money

Open Class

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If you think that all you have to do is shoot two handed and use whatever equipment you want to win an overall you are mistaken. It takes lots of hard work that many including myself aren't willing to do. Then it also takes a certain amount of God given talent to be the very best. People that shoot frontiersman aren't trying to win the overall and they are ok with it or they wouldn't be shooting cap and ball. I suggest you use whatever equipment and style of shooting at your reginal this year and go for the overall. Then maybe you'll appreciate what these winners accomplished.

Plus 1

 

The "best" are usually the ones that work the hardest. I just read an article the other day and it was saying that World and Olympic freestyle wrestling champion Jordan Burroughs is always the last person out of the room. Talent is important, but the desire to prepare has a bigger impact on the result.

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No matter what category I choose, I am limited by poor eyesight, lack of coordination, a paucity of ability and age. Knowing your own limitations simply means that you can honestly commend those that become proficient enough to achieve the overall championship.

 

No matter which sport I enjoyed over the last many decades, I found that the overall champions were far better than me no matter what. The idea that great shooters would be handicapped by using any category is an admission that you have never experienced shooting with one of them! :)

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I enjoy reading the wire, but not much to say on most topics. As an old, fat, slow shooter it is the personal challenge more that the competitive challenge that brings me to the line. The impact of categories a touchy subject and certainly stirs the pot. My two bits worth. I think that a shooter coming down to a lower age category is sometimes abused and should be stopped. There have been a number of "good" excuses made as to why someone might want to make a change. However abuse of these moves must be discouraging to the new, younger shooters that find themselves against older experienced shooters that find themselves in an age group that is a little to competitive for their liking. The issue of the "open" cowboy age group should be 17 - 35 only and the other age groups should be for shooters of the stated age only. All that said, shooters going to the Cowboy open category may resolve itself as shooters like Matt Black, Cody James and several others move into that age group. Best to all and Happy New Year.

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There is its cowboy.

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There is its cowboy.

 

 

Again. No it's not.

 

Can you shoot GFer in Cowboy???? NO. Then it is NOT a OPEN category.

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Again. No it's not.

 

Can you shoot GFer in Cowboy???? NO. Then it is NOT a OPEN category.

 

Two things:

 

First, this debate has been out there for at least as long as I have been shooting CAS, which is about seventeen years now.

 

Second, as a two-handed shooter and a Jedi GF'r I can tell you that there are some stages that are faster for the GF'r IF the pistols are shot last. You MIGHT pick up about .5-1.0 seconds if you can draw the guns on the move and have enough room to have them out and aimed when you plant your first foot.

 

Would it add "style" points to be able to do both? Yes, certianly, but it's not a real advantage so most Top Dogs aren't going to put in the time to gain a skill that isn't really going to help them win HOA.

 

So an OPEN catagory is just All Around Cowboy without the BP or Duelist.

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Hi again,

 

It was on the agenda before and I think it should be again - allow GF in age-based categories. Let the people speak their wishes. It won't add a new category. So, those folks that are against more categories should not complain.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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Two things:

 

First, this debate has been out there for at least as long as I have been shooting CAS, which is about seventeen years now.

 

Second, as a two-handed shooter and a Jedi GF'r I can tell you that there are some stages that are faster for the GF'r IF the pistols are shot last. You MIGHT pick up about .5-1.0 seconds if you can draw the guns on the move and have enough room to have them out and aimed when you plant your first foot.

 

Would it add "style" points to be able to do both? Yes, certianly, but it's not a real advantage so most Top Dogs aren't going to put in the time to gain a skill that isn't really going to help them win HOA.

 

So an OPEN catagory is just All Around Cowboy without the BP or Duelist.

 

 

I agree with all that.

 

Just saying that everyone keeps saying Cowboy is a open category while it is not.

We don't have a open category.

And I am not saying we need one.

Just that Cowboy is not one as everyone keeps saying.

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OhhhhKaaaaayyy …

 

 

I like the assumption that "new people" coming into the sport are all "young people" … and … that everyone that is 40 or 50 or 60+ are experienced "highly competitive" shooters.

 

 

I'll bet that most of the new shooters coming into the sport are "older" shooters … and … that the youngsters are simply accompanying existing shooters that may be parents or grandparents attempting to keep their youngsters "doing something with them" for as long as they can.

 

 

It would be natural for them to want their youngsters to feel "successful" as soon as possible to help them retain some interest. You would "think" … helping them overcome some "talented/or untalented old folks" would instill "some" pride into the equation … instead of clearing any obstacle to an easy buckle out of their way. (I know a lot of "older" folks starting in the game that are "never" going to get a buckle … screw them right??)

 

 

I always felt that the majority of participants in this sport would be older and/or very stable middle agers … as well as some aging young people that "really did" grow an attachment to the game.

 

 

I am pretty sure that "wrangler" came around to address many complaints from some highly competitive younger shooters who weren't that close to "49" and who couldn't compete against some "hot" shooters in that <49 age group.

 

 

I am not surprised now to see many people seeking to move into FC; FCD; Duelist; Bwestern on anything where they can avoid the constant whining associated with the age bound "Traditional" classes.

 

 

There are usually 3-4 times as many shooters shooting in the Senior+ categories at major matches … heck … if they give out 10 trophies to the group with 30 shooters and 10 trophies to a group with 128 shooters … I guess it would be nice to be in that "30" shooter category and be protected … keep everyone else out.

 

 

Soooooo … PLEASE … put the "Traditional" name back … and attach it to the "open" "two handed" shooting category and turn "Cowboy" into an age group category and perhaps the wining will stop.

 

 

This isn't like shooting in "other" shooting associations … (like USPSA, IDPA, ICORE etc) … Those groups classify shooter's by ability and there are only special "side" bennies to honor "older" shooters that continue to compete in their midst. They have an organized process and leadership that is made up of the membership … voted in every few years … etc … It is not a business that is infact the lively hood of a small group of people. I am not saying our arrangement is bad .. I am just saying it is "NOT" like other shooting associations.

 

 

I continue to believe that this game is a place for life stable (probably older group) to play … that "connect" with the westerns they watched as kids and are(generally) not interested in biting into some of the more highly competitive venues (or compete in those venues to the extent they have in the past). They have been wanting to be able to do something like this for a long long time (heck … get to shoot and perhaps get the spouse/sig other … whatever … and kids/friends to come along too) … and … now things have matured in their lives sufficiently for them to do it. They have more free time than they used too (or like it enough to commit a lot of the time they have available).

 

 

Is the primary participant target really kids?? Wouldn't they want to go kick butt at a local USPSA or IDPA match?? Everything else being equal … (normally) … shouldn't a youngster in average physical condition beat the hell out of a 65 year old in average physical condition??

 

Who is paying the bills here??? Lock this down so we can play … for whatever reason we are here.

 

 

You have allowed some people to remove "THE OPEN TRADITIONAL" category (which happens to be named the COWBOY category at this particular time) by innuendo w/o regard to the rules … SOOOOOOOOOOOO … put it back "IN WRITING" …

 

 

THEN … we can play in Traditional with two hands (against anyone who wants to play) … just like they do in Duelist (with one hand) … w/o having to endure the whining !!!!!!!!!!!! … and who really gives a ... about adjustable sights?? Do YOU really think they make a difference?? If you don't give old folks a red dot then they can't hurt you … so "LOSE" the adjustable sight restraint while your at it!!)

 

 

Opinion Only

 

Pete

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Hey Pete , It's a shame this is a family forum because I'd like to know how you really feel. You have it totally backwards. Some older shooters (not all by a long shot) want the age brackets to protect them from the younger shooters. That's why the older the shooter the shorter the age bracket. It's also a way to keep the numbers in any one class smaller. Wonder why that is? But some older shooters see that there aren't a lot of cowboys , wranglers etc. so They move down to "clear any obstacle" So They Can Win a buckle. It's a double standard. A 20 yr old has one age based catagory while a 66 yr old has 5 age based catagories. So who is really taking advantage. So yea a 55 yr old may move into cowboy to grab a 4th place win instead of staying in 49r where he would have gotten 15 th. What is the point of having age based catagories if people can drop down. I would be fine with no age based catagories. But I would also be ok with one age break at senior but Many of your (non whining ?) older shooters would hate that idea. I'm 52 and I shoot 49r. More than once if I had dropped down I would have placed but I can handle it. Like I said you have the who's whining part and who's worried about placing backwards.

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Hey Pete , It's a shame this is a family forum because I'd like to know how you really feel. You have it totally backwards.

 

Well "Most Wanted" ... thanks to Allie ... my enthusiasm has been edited ... but ... If there really "was" a "Traditional" category like there used to be (and it hasn't been that long since Traditional/Modern went away for Cowboy/Wrangler) ... it would be a non issue.

 

There is of course "still" a Traditional category "per the rule book" but apparently because of the name ("Cowboy") it is being treated (in practice) by some as an "age boundary" category.

 

For what ever reason people want to move down or up or whatever ... it becomes a non issue (repeating myself again) if you let Cowboy be an age category and do their thing (they can shoot there or in Traditional and don't have to blame the actions of others for why it might be unfair/unjust for them to do either ... heck ... that would become true for every "two handed" age based category).

 

Now ... anyone who doesn't want to shoot in an aged based category "two handed" (currently) can't do so without being a "bad person" (according to some) ... (despite what the rules say) because they force them to shoot in the "Cowboy" category (as it was originally designed) and "are being mean to new shooters" (if I get the drift of the opposition of the current structure).

 

Yes ... (I think you are absolutely correct) ... the whole reason in the first place for age barriers was indeed to protect older shooters from younger shooters if they felt they needed it ... but ... I think the "other" argument being made here was that the old bad/good guys were sliding down there to take advantage. Obviously, there are people who have an issue with the movement either way ... and those with the issue of "Cowboy" age shooters not being able to move anywhere.

 

Vote for Carl Jr. !! Add Traditional back by itself and make Cowboy 17-36 (or whatever it is) and get past this ... Why let this fester year after year when it is so easy to correct?? (or "put it back like it was" sort of ... )

 

Pete s9.gif

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Oh, darn! I hate the part where practice and skill win matches.

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lol in that case it's bw just just have to dress the part since any shooting style is allowed on any bw stage as long as the stage writer wrote it not to be inclusive.

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While I really have no opinion on the "category" dog so-to-speak. I have to say, cool opening story about your gramp and the old days of shooting competitions there Jess!

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I think somebody needs to get Pete a buckle for "most quotation marks used" in a single post.

 

 

 

 

"All in fun."

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Thanks , Tombstone! True story according to a journal gandpa kept. He was a decent shot himself as evidenced by the meat he won.

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lol in that case it's bw just just have to dress the part since any shooting style is allowed on any bw stage as long as the stage writer wrote it not to be inclusive.

B-western still isn't an "open" category, as there are firearm restrictions in that category. Plus not everyone wants to dress up as a prairie fairy.

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I think somebody needs to get Pete a buckle for "most quotation marks used" in a single post.

 

And you can quote him on that!

 

Happy New Year, pards! May 2015 shine on you and shower you with great things and greater friends. GJ

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Hi again,

 

It was on the agenda before and I think it should be again - allow GF in age-based categories.

GUNFIGHTER isn't completely "OPEN" either...there are equipment restrictions (i.e. NO X-draw, shoulder or butt-forward carry) <_<

IIRC, that was one of the "deal breakers" last time that issue was on the table.

Any category in which it is allowed must comply with those same regulations...

at least until Cav/twist draw is accepted in the ONLY category that currently prohibits it (two if you count BW).

 

Let the people speak their wishes. It won't add a new category. So, those folks that are against more categories should not complain.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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Easy- To use Gunfighter one MUST adhere to all of the above restrictions! :)

 

I enjoy the 75 and 80 categories because no one complains if we all have to use the restroom on every stage.

 

Black powder is no jonger a disadvantage because we can't see the targets anyway!

 

The mere idea that any kid in their 50s, 60s and early 70s has a clue really breaks me up! :):wub:

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Hi again,

 

It was on the agenda before and I think it should be again - allow GF in age-based categories.

GUNFIGHTER isn't completely "OPEN" either...there are equipment restrictions (i.e. NO X-draw, shoulder or butt-forward carry) <_<

IIRC, that was one of the "deal breakers" last time that issue was on the table.

Any category in which it is allowed must comply with those same regulations...

at least until Cav/twist draw is accepted in the ONLY category that currently prohibits it (two if you count BW).

 

Let the people speak their wishes. It won't add a new category. So, those folks that are against more categories should not complain.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

Hi PW,

 

I understand and see nothing wrong with adding a note about GF restrictions to the age-based category. Such as the following.

 

• Revolvers may be shot any style except Gunfighter.

If shooting Gunfighter style in an age-based category, refer to the Gunfighter category for restrictions on revolvers, holsters, and shooting style.

 

This would eliminate the need for a separate category if someone wants to shoot Grand Patron (Elder, SS, Senior...) using GF style.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

PS This post is for you Muddy!

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Hi PW,

 

I understand and see nothing wrong with adding a note about GF restrictions to the age-based category. Such as the following.

 

• Revolvers may be shot any style except Gunfighter.

If shooting Gunfighter style in an age-based category, refer to the Gunfighter category for restrictions on revolvers, holsters, and shooting style.

 

This would eliminate the need for a separate category if someone wants to shoot Grand Patron (Elder, SS, Senior...) using GF style.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

PS This post is for you Muddy!

I like your proposal, but the wording would require fixed sighted revolvers in aged based categories. Probably just an oversight, but I do like where you are going.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Smoke

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