TG Agenda item 5 - costome category compliance

[Grizzly Dave]

 

5) Should conflicts on costume based shooting categories ("B"-Western Men's & Ladies and Classic Cowboy/Cowgirl) Costuming requirement determinations be relegated to the Costume Contest personnel/judges?

Where the competitors can battle it out in front of a panel of judges instead of bringing costume issues to the attention of Range Masters and Match Directors to decide if a shirt or boots are in compliance with the rules.

 

On the one hand, I'm all for reducing the problems that MDs and rangemasters have to put up with, The way it's stated above the accuser would have to stand and make a case in front of the accused.

 

On the other hand, they will still have costume related duties for the non costume categories. Also, I kinda feel that a MD, or panel of RO2s would be more likely to impartially apply the rules as written. Also, not all matches have costume contests to have personnel or judges.

 

What says the fire?

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

mixed bag of worms so to speak,

 

yes, to take it off the MD's shoulders,,, if no costume contest judges available then an appointed "official with rule book in hand".

 

don't know why it couldn't be done now without a vote,,,,

[Grizzly Dave]

CC, kinda my thoughts as well, MDs delegate all sorts of things, settling costume disputes is just something else that could be delegated if need be.

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

Could even go as far as to designate a match a "costume compliance" match. That way those attending know they need to have their outfit sorted before coming and there's no doubt that if they do not meet the requirements, they'll get called out.

 

Certainly seems like this could be a delegated duty. In fact, delegating it would, most likely, increase the quality of how the duties are carried out.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

My responses to our TG:

• I guess I like the idea of defining a category before age breakouts are considered, but if you make an exclusion for one type, how do you justify denying another? I’d lobby for yes on #1 and no on #2
• FCGF is near and dear to me. Let’s get this one done! Please vote in the affirmative on this issue.
• As for the dropped round issue, I feel that too much subjectivity is involved to change the existing rule. I foresee a debacle similar to the closed lever change that became a non-change.
• #5 - Somebody has to make the call. The match director needs to step up and be in charge. Minimalists tend to defeat the purpose of clothing categories, but if it’s someone just beginning, why be too hard on them if they barely make it? If 5 items aren’t enough for the maximists (new word I just made up), then change the item count or mandate certain non-optional items.
• #6 – Let those older shooters call themselves whatever they want. Bless them for still hanging in there!

CR

[Grizzly Dave]

HD - all annual and above matches are costume compliance matches.

 

CR, I can see your point, after all, even if it was delegated, the MD would have the final say if appealed up to him or her.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Grizz,

 

As you know there has been some controversy over BW. This agenda item is a slap-in the-faces of those who wanted to put an end to the controversy by having issues clarified, either yeah or nay, in the rule book. This agenda item does nothing to quell that controversy. It does nothing to ensure that existing rules are uniformly understood or applied. The rules will likely be interpreted differently at different matches, just as they are now.

 

I spent many hours talking via email to several unhappy lady BW shooters who had opposing opinions. Then, I tried to work in a three-person BW Committee. Hipshot appointed us. I quit.

 

What a waste of time this topic has been for me.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Flying W Ramrod]

Had a "costume board" at a major MAJOR match this year. Neither one knew the costume requirements nor did all the costume category shooters show up. Have the Posse Leader observe the costume category shooters on the first stage, with rule book in hand, then, if there is a problem, contact the Match Director. Now I know most Match Directors have more to do than arbitrate on costumes and a lot of the MD's don't know/care about the costume regs, but someone has to do it, and, as they say, the buck stops here.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS Match Directors are free to appoint anyone they like to handle this. The agenda item is a waste of time for the TGs to discuss.

 

PPS Maybe I should tell everyone how I really feel.

 

PPPS I am a TG and will be at the Summit, so this topic will take more of my time.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Shooting as I do in a costume category, I KNOW it would be a pain in the rear to have to find out who the costume category person is who wants to be in charge of a challenge, get that person hooked up with both the "plaintiff" and the "defendant" and have a decision rendered. Besides, violation of a costume rule should not have to be made a big deal by a fellow shooter. Rule enforcement is the job of match officials, not a fellow costumed shooter nor a costume judge.

 

This is the complete opposite of our Cowboy Way when we ask our pards to conduct themselves by one of our major rules - No Interpersonal Conflicts will be Tolerated!

 

Let's not turn this into a problem when it is NOT a problem today! At all major matches I've been to recently, we usually get all the Classics and BWesterns together, after initial safety briefing, ask them all to examine each other's costumes, and raise any objections right then. Thus, posse marshals don't have to stay current on costume rules, a cursory glance each morning on a multi-day shoot is usually sufficient to see that Fred didn't try to scrimp on his costume on day 3, and we don't have to go find some unknown or not-present-right-now costume judge.

 

We don't have a problem now - why try to turn this into a problem in the future?

 

Good luck, GJ

 

PS -

If our costume rules are so complicated and nit-picky that they can't be understood by an average MD or posse marshal, then we need to simplify the rules, not put more complicated justice systems in place!

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

Shooting as I do in a costume category, I KNOW it would be a pain in the rear to have to find out who the costume category person is who wants to be in charge of a challenge, get that person hooked up with both the "plaintiff" and the "defendant" and have a decision rendered. Besides, violation of a costume rule should not have to be made a big deal by a fellow shooter. Rule enforcement is the job of match officials, not a fellow costumed shooter nor a costume judge.

 

This is the complete opposite of our Cowboy Way when we ask our pards to conduct themselves by one of our major rules - No Interpersonal Conflicts will be Tolerated!

 

Let's not turn this into a problem when it is NOT a problem today! At all major matches I've been to recently, we usually get all the Classics and BWesterns together, after initial safety briefing, ask them all to examine each other's costumes, and raise any objections right then. Thus, posse marshals don't have to stay current on costume rules, a cursory glance each morning on a multi-day shoot is usually sufficient to see that Fred didn't try to scrimp on his costume on day 3, and we don't have to go find some unknown or not-present-right-now costume judge.

 

We don't have a problem now - why try to turn this into a problem in the future?

 

Good luck, GJ

Sounds like the most efficient way to find any potential issues early on. I don't shoot costume related categories, but if I did, it would be Classic Cowboy (with the BP handicap)

CR

[Grizzly Dave]

The problem with that, is at matches with multiple waves, and also you wind up wasting the time of everyone else at the match (IMO) while the costume categories nit pick each other. I went to one match where BW and CC were supposed to show 20 minutes before the safety meeting, but not everyone got that memo, and it was a mess and a waste of time, again, IMO.

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Get rid of the costume categories if people want to fudge the rules and can't get along. The rules are either going to be too arbitrary or too complicated. Get rid of the age based categories except for the extremes, (Junior and below/ Senior and above). Go back to 2 handed shooters, one handed shooters, and Gunfighter. Have blackpowder and smokeless categories and categories that have special shooting styles, gun models, and caliber restrictions. This way B Western and Classic Cowboy shooters can shoot within the gun and shooting style restrictions of their current categories. If these folks want to wear a certain type of clothes or accessories, more power to them.

 

Next shooter!

 

Fillmore

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Get rid of the costume categories if people want to fudge the rules and can't get along. The rules are either going to be too arbitrary or too complicated. Get rid of the age based categories except for the extremes, (Junior and below/ Senior and above). Go back to 2 handed shooters, one handed shooters, and Gunfighter. Blackpowder and smokeless categories and categories that have special gun and caliber restrictions.

 

Next shooter!

 

Fillmore

X 1K!

OLG

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

If there is a question about someone's clothing, then it should be handled like BP is SUPPOSED to be handled.

 

ie, if you think someone is out of category dress or gun wise, then YOU go find an official and explain it to that official, then you go back without saying anything to the shooter in question. The official can then go take a gander at the shooter in question,, and decide yea or nay...

 

that would not require a vote by the TGs....

 

and if costume judges are the ones judging, Ide soon shoot another category if they judge a shooters costume the way they often judge for costume awards!

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I can tell you my input to my TG and how I am considering handling this at future Eldorado annual events.

The participants in the specific shooting category, i.e. (B-Western/ Classic Cowboy) WILL BE the costume judges for that category.

They will be required to participate in a MANDATORY pre shoot meeting and costume examination conducted by their peers within the category.

Nothing new there - that is the way we have handled the costuming exam for a year or two.

 

Here's the new part.

If a participant within that category wishes to protest the attire or accoutrements of another - they bring it to the attention of the entire CATEGORY participant group DURING the exam and evaluation process. Transparent protest and discussion should follow.

The group will then vote on the adherence of the participant to the standards of the category.

If the group vote says the claimed "violator" is within category compliance - the issue is complete and final.

 

If the group votes that the participant is in violation of the rules - the shooter may without penalty - fix their violation or change categories (prior to the first shot going down range)

 

If the "violator" wishes to protest the groups decision or vote - they may request a MD review.

Upon which the violator and initial protester may make their case for their side.

Reviews will be conducted by the MD, and any attending Board members and/ or club T.G.

And simply because an equipment piece or attire choice has not been protested before will not serve as any basis to defend it on this day.

Decision of the review board will be final.

 

This peer review will occur on each day of the main match event.

Failure to attend the peer review (both days) may result in category movement and possible penalties for shooting out of category if deemed appropriate.

 

If anyone is found or suspected of using the protest system for non legitimate reasons i.e. to get into someones head or for purpose of personal grievance - that shooter will receive penalties as appropriate. (i.e. up to and including the possibility of MDQ)

 

The folks that the costuming and accoutrements mean the most to are the participants within that category.

They are the ones with "Skin in the game" - they are the best choice for recognizing issues and policing their category.

And they are the ones with the most to lose (i.e. purity of their category or personal category placements), by allowing a participant to shoot in their category wrongfully attired or equipped.

 

Public addressing of these issues will go a long way toward encouraging the participants within these categories to self police and ensure they are up to the standards expected.

These "costume" categories are not designed to be nor expected to be minimalist categories and with the advent of peer review and possible category changes if protested - I would take the appropriate steps to be certain that there would never be any question regarding my attire.

 

Which eventually would bring these categories into compliance with the ideals they were created with.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Think this is one bad idea.

 

To many flat out DO NOT KNOW THE RULES. Or they have there own agenda on what THEY

think it should be.

 

 

Let the MD handle it by rule. Even many in those categories don't know the rules.

 

 

Heck. Had a LONG time BW shooter and multi World and National Champion in BWestern

argue that traditional style boots meant that they had to be pointy toed and flat leather soles.

 

And this is who they might having to the judging.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I've got the answer!!!!!

 

 

I'll volunteer!!! yu just have to fly me in, put me up and give me an entry!!!! Then I will handle it!!!!

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

I've got the answer!!!!!

 

 

I'll volunteer!!! yu just have to fly me in, put me up and give me an entry!!!! Then I will handle it!!!!

 

You'll handle it and I NEVER have to deal with costuming issues EVER again?

You promise?

Might be worth it - I will check with the Club Treasurer and get back to you.

[Grizzly Dave]

Creeker, I see that as leading BW and CC shooters to find some other match to attend. Early wave starts at 8, safely meeting at 7.30, costume meeting at 7 where not everyone shows up on time causing it to bleed over in to the safety meeting wasting every ones time. Shooters who missed the meeting or otherwise didn't comply get moved and pissed off. Nope, not a customer friendly solution in my opinion. And then you have issues with shooters from other waves seeing folks in other waves and making issues.

 

While I agree that having to make known gripes publicly would likely reduce the number of complaints, I also see it leading to some very public pissing matches.

 

I feel for MDs and RMs having to deal with the costume category complaints, from what I hear it can get ugly and nit picky, but this is not a solution to an existing problem, I see it as a solution to a slight problem that would create much bigger problems.

[Calico Mary]

While I understand that MDs already have enuff ta do, I would be more comfortable with having them make decisions based on what the stated rules are then I would a panel of people who might possibly have their own agenda of tryin' ta enforce their personal opinions instead. The insistence of some folks that theirs is the only opinion that counts on "fancy and flashy" are a large part of the reason I've given up on the idea of ever shootin' LBW agin, even though I do miss competing in that category among folks who don't have those kind of ego problems....

[Fingers McGee]

Get rid of the costume categories if people want to fudge the rules and can't get along. The rules are either going to be too arbitrary or too complicated. Get rid of the age based categories except for the extremes, (Junior and below/ Senior and above). Go back to 2 handed shooters, one handed shooters, and Gunfighter. Blackpowder and smokeless categories and categories that have special gun and caliber restrictions.

 

Next shooter!

 

Fillmore

 

Hi Grizz,

 

As you know there has been some controversy over BW. This agenda item is a slap-in the-faces of those who wanted to put an end to the controversy by having issues clarified, either yeah or nay, in the rule book. This agenda item does nothing to quell that controversy. It does nothing to ensure that existing rules are uniformly understood or applied. The rules will likely be interpreted differently at different matches, just as they are now.

 

I spent many hours talking via email to several unhappy lady BW shooters who had opposing opinions. Then, I tried to work in a three-person BW Committee. Hipshot appointed us. I quit.

 

What a waste of time this topic has been for me.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

 

+1.1K

 

Eliminate the 'Costume' categories and you eliminate the problem.

 

Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Creeker, I see that as leading BW and CC shooters to find some other match to attend. Early wave starts at 8, safely meeting at 7.30, costume meeting at 7 where not everyone shows up on time causing it to bleed over in to the safety meeting wasting every ones time. Shooters who missed the meeting or otherwise didn't comply get moved and pissed off. Nope, not a customer friendly solution in my opinion. And then you have issues with shooters from other waves seeing folks in other waves and making issues.

 

While I agree that having to make known gripes publicly would likely reduce the number of complaints, I also see it leading to some very public pissing matches.

 

I feel for MDs and RMs having to deal with the costume category complaints, from what I hear it can get ugly and nit picky, but this is not a solution to an existing problem, I see it as a solution to a slight problem that would create much bigger problems.

 

Grizz - I agree

But how else do you handle it?

 

A panel of folks with no skin in the game are not going to make a protest any easier or more palatable to the person being called out.

 

Currently (at least in my experience) the friction comes from a lot of whispered complaints and mumbled protests.

Folks that want to whine about their competition, but want to hide behind the MD to "correct" it.

My idea forces folks to put their complaint out to the world.

 

Eventually, folks dressed less than acceptable will change their attire or category.

The continual complainers would eventually get tired of being denied and shot down.

 

Is there a possibility of hurt feelings and uncomfortable discussions?

Yup

But if the decision falls to me as Match Director - I will be making the decision based entirely on MY singular opinion.

I would think ANYONE who is going to be judged on these very subjective matters would prefer and be better served to be evaluated by their peers.

Or perhaps I am missing something (it would not be the first time)

[Grizzly Dave]

LOL, I just had a thought, pay to protest another's costuming, if it turns out to be a legitiment violation of the rules, ya git yer money back, if not, bye bye buckeroos

[Blastmaster]

I thought the costume issue was settled,,,,denim.

 

A joke son, a joke..

 

Exit,,, back to my man cave.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

it all depends if those in your area have ideas of being ok far beyond what the rules actually state!

[watab kid]

"If our costume rules are so complicated and nit-picky that they can't be understood by an average MD or posse marshal, then we need to simplify the rules, not put more complicated justice systems in place!"

 

A-MEN to that , if the costume is the competition , have at it , if its interfaced with the shooting , why over complicate it ?

[Slick McClade]

Ok, it would seem that most of the people with issues on BW dress(pot stirrers) don't even shoot BW. Why can't the rules be cut and dry ??? The following items that are allowed ............ !

All shooters male and female must have at least one of the following:

 

chaps/chinks

cuffs

scarf or bolo

Vest

 

 

The following items are mandatory :

Spurs with a rowel and straps

Felt western hat

Belt

Pants with belt loops(or dresses for women)

Long sleeve shirt with one or more of the following ( embroidery, rhinestones , pearl snap buttons, fringe ).

Western boots

 

It's easy, keep it simple

If a shooter shows up to the line and doesn't meet the requirements then they are changed into another class.

 

Just a thought from a simple BW shooter

 

Slick

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

it's not MDs that don't understand it, it's a few zealots than want a much higher standard,,,

 

it's NOT rocket science!!

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

The problem with that, is at matches with multiple waves, and also you wind up wasting the time of everyone else at the match (IMO) while the costume categories nit pick each other. I went to one match where BW and CC were supposed to show 20 minutes before the safety meeting, but not everyone got that memo, and it was a mess and a waste of time, again, IMO.

At all of the matches that I have attended the shooter's meeting was mandatory. If you do not attend you do not shoot. Have a costume shooters meeting immediately afterward and let them sort it out.

 

I have shot CC off, and on. There have been lots of shooters who are technically within the rules if not the spirit. If someone has a good idea that is technically correct and it works for me I use it. For example, one of The CC accouterments is a knife. A patch knife hung from a cord around the neck qualifies. My big Bowie has not seen a SASS match since another shooter wore a patch knife. Besides, my patch knife is much cooler than a cheap Bowie knife..

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

Ok, it would seem that most of the people with issues on BW dress(pot stirrers) don't even shoot BW. Why can't the rules be cut and dry ??? The following items that are allowed ............ !

All shooters male and female must have at least one of the following:

 

chaps/chinks

cuffs

scarf or bolo

 

 

The following items are mandatory :

Spurs with a rowel and straps

Felt western hat

Belt

Pants with belt loops(or dresses for women)

Long sleeve shirt with one or more of the following ( embroidery, rhinestones , pearl snap buttons, fringe ).

Western boots

 

It's easy, keep it simple

If a shooter shows up to the line and doesn't meet the requirements then they are changed into another class.

 

Just a thought from a simple BW shooter

 

Slick

Yes, but what does "fancy and flashy" mean? It seems a little ambiguous.

 

Fillmore

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Ok, it would seem that most of the people with issues on BW dress(pot stirrers) don't even shoot BW. Why can't the rules be cut and dry ??? The following items that are allowed ............ !

All shooters male and female must have at least one of the following:

 

chaps/chinks

cuffs

scarf or bolo

 

 

The following items are mandatory :

Spurs with a rowel and straps

Felt western hat

Belt

Pants with belt loops(or dresses for women)

Long sleeve shirt with one or more of the following ( embroidery, rhinestones , pearl snap buttons, fringe ).

Western boots

 

It's easy, keep it simple

If a shooter shows up to the line and doesn't meet the requirements then they are changed into another class.

 

Just a thought from a simple BW shooter

 

Slick

 

Only a few things wrong...... The above is not the rules for B-Western!

[Grizzly Dave]

Ok, it would seem that most of the people with issues on BW dress(pot stirrers) don't even shoot BW. Why can't the rules be cut and dry ??? The following items that are allowed ............ !

All shooters male and female must have at least one of the following:

 

chaps/chinks

cuffs

scarf or bolo

 

 

The following items are mandatory :

Spurs with a rowel and straps

Felt western hat

Belt

Pants with belt loops(or dresses for women)

Long sleeve shirt with one or more of the following ( embroidery, rhinestones , pearl snap buttons, fringe ).

Western boots

 

It's easy, keep it simple

If a shooter shows up to the line and doesn't meet the requirements then they are changed into another class.

 

Just a thought from a simple BW shooter

 

Slick

 

 

 

Only a few things wrong...... The above is not the rules for B-Western!

 

Well seeing as how Slick said 'why can't they be...' (colored red to make it easier to see) that indicates that he's not quoting the current rules, but stating what he believes (and I do too) a much simpler set of rules.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

 

 

 

Well seeing as how Slick said 'why can't they be...' (colored red to make it easier to see) that indicates that he's not quoting the current rules, but stating what he believes (and I do too) a much simpler set of rules.

+1

[Barry Sloe]

At Bordertown this year we had the initial shooters meeting and then all BW and CC shooters were invited outside to be looked over by the MD and the TG.

Pretty straight forward.

 

BS