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Shotgun Target Range Justification


Cypress Sam, SASS #10915

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The Rules Committee of our gun club thinks that all shotgun poppers should be set up no closer than 15 yards. Their justification is that the target manufacturer gives that range as their recommended minimum.

 

The Rules Committee wants some sort of written justification before giving the Cowboy Action Shooters a Waiver to set shotgun targets closer than 15 yards. I know that the SASS Match Directors Guide says that SG targets should be set between 8 and 16 yards.

 

Does anyone have any references from a National Authority or any accepted guidelines that I could use to take to the Rules Committee use as justification for requesting a waiver?

 

They've stated that just because we've been shooting close targets for years without problems is not adequate justification.

 

Please Help if you can!

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Think I would ask to see that manufactures written recommendation on target distance.

 

They might have one. But if they was going to pull that on me. I would want to SEE it in writing

FROM the manufacturer they are talking about.

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That's interesting Sam in that most of your targets were made by a manufacturer that does not have written guidelines......Is the match directors guide not sufficient enough for them to go by? It is indicative of the fact that shotgun targets are set at distances of less than 15 yards.

 

Stan

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How about the INTERNATIONAL RULES for SASS-sanctioned CAS matches?

 

 

Metal and paper targets of generous size are used. Reactive targets such as pepper poppers and falling plates are used when practical to enhance shooter feedback and spectator appeal.

Targets are set at close to medium range. There are no absolute rules, but we suggest the following distances, by firearm, if using a target approximately 16" X 16":

Revolver – 7 to 10 yards Shotgun – 8 to 16 yards Rifle – 13 to 50 yards

SHB p.20

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Like other target placements...your customer's enjoyment will depend on your distance decision.

 

Cheers!!!

 

Phantom

 

PS: Personally hate SASS mentioning recommended distances as they have lead to many a heated argument.

 

;)

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Think I would ask to see that manufactures written recommendation on target distance.

 

They might have one. But if they was going to pull that on me. I would want to SEE it in writing

FROM the manufacturer they are talking about.

 

I just looked on Action Targets website, they had specs for pistol cal, rifles, and shotgun slugs, did not see anything for bird shot loads.

Only way to ask for an exception is to address the exact reason, if they can't show you, how can you address it? Could well be they are taking the recommendation for pistol caliber and saying it applies for bird shot as well. BTW for Action targets I just read 10 yards for pistol.

 

Do your research and produce written standards from as many target manufacturers as you can.

 

Point out that we use only lead shot.

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Well Sam, I see the "committee" at CFR&P are at it again trying to solve problems that don't exist. Considering that most of the shotgun targets that you have were made by Stan, Old Glory and Me, I would be glad to give you my official guideline..........set them anywhere you want!

 

Dang It Dan

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Sam;

 

All steel target manufacturers specifications that I have checked over the years - list 15 yards. But the "Steel Target Resource Guide" lists 10 yards for pistol caliber.

 

I can email you a pdf file of the guide.

 

The guide plus the reference PWB provided by SASS the sanctioning body of the sport might help your case.

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Like other target placements...your customer's enjoyment will depend on your distance decision.

 

Cheers!!!

 

Phantom

 

PS: Personally hate SASS mentioning recommended distances as they have lead to many a heated argument.

 

;)

 

IMO...there's a definite difference between "recommended" and "suggested" (as written) ... but neither one is "mandatory".

 

^_^

 

(this statement further "clarified" in post #21)

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Well Sam, I see the "committee" at CFR&P are at it again trying to solve problems that don't exist. Considering that most of the shotgun targets that you have were made by Stan, Old Glory and Me, I would be glad to give you my official guideline..........set them anywhere you want!

 

Dang It Dan

 

 

That was what I was thinking.

 

That what they are saying they are going by. Does not exist.

 

Tell them. You show me yours. I will show you mine.

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In 24 +years of shooting I've been hit like everyone else has. A little hit here and there sometime a tiny bit of blood, but this summer was different. I was running the scores back away from the line. A ricochet from a shotgun target ENTERED the top part of my chin, then exited, and stuck in my lower neck (my head was down; I picked the piece out). People accept the risk when they shoot (I did and still do) but to say "that's just the way we do it" ain't gonna fly with an insurance company. Stuff happens, shoot long enough and it will happen to you. Had I been hit in the throat it would have been a whole different situation.
CW

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What's up Sam???? ....I'm getting nervous when you start to play by someone elses rules....lol.

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In 24 +years of shooting I've been hit like everyone else has. A little hit here and there sometime a tiny bit of blood, but this summer was different. I was running the scores back away from the line. A ricochet from a shotgun target ENTERED the top part of my chin, then exited, and stuck in my lower neck (my head was down; I picked the piece out). People accept the risk when they shoot (I did and still do) but to say "that's just the way we do it" ain't gonna fly with an insurance company. Stuff happens, shoot long enough and it will happen to you. Had I been hit in the throat it would have been a whole different situation.

CW

 

A shooter on my posse at Bordertown did get hit in the throat with a chuck of lead from one of his revolver bullets. He started bleeding badly and the paramedics worked awhile getting the flow stopped. After about a half a hour he returned and finished the match. There is a risk from very close targets. This is why I use soft lead bullets for my revolvers and small shot like 8 1/2s or 9s in my shotgun shells. My cap 'n ball revolvers seem safest. The pure lead balls they shoot have never splattered me.

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My cap 'n ball revolvers seem safest. The pure lead balls they shoot have never splattered me.

While counting at CAC this weekend, I took a hit from a C&B that was the whole ball, perfectly splattered. I saw it from the time it left the target until it hit me square in the chest. Scared the heck out of me, but did no real damage. If it had hit sideways, it might have been worse, but it seemed to hit flat.

 

Yeah, I know; totally off topic, but just still kind of stuck in my mind.

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IPSC minimum shotgun distance is 5 meters.

Keep in mind they can shoot buckshot and birdshot while buckshot is prohibited for us.

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I would use the 2014 SHOOTERS HANDBOOK regs (suggested) as it is more up-to-date than the 2003 MD Guide (recommended) ...

 

neither of which says "should" or "must" be...

 

We had a similar issue as the SASS standards were closer than allowed by our home gun club rules regarding the use of steel targets.

Printed regulations for the sanctioning body of the discipline (SASS) prevailed (we were hosting the SASS Oregon State Championship the year this was an issue)

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Our club has begun having several disciplines other than CAS shoot on the action range including USPSA, IDPA, ICORE, IPSC three gun, Tactical 3-Gun, Steel Challenge, Tactical Shotgun, and several others. Most of these use full loads and jacketed bullets. Their shotgun shooting also uses more "tactical" type loads including buckshot and slugs.

 

There have been at least two incidents where participants in either a match or sanctioned training have shot themselves. The club started requiring an "incident report" on any incident. Since people started reporting "incidents" it appeared to the club officers that there suddenly started to be a safety problem. The officers appointed a Rules Committee to get all of the club rules written down in one place so that there were some written guidelines.

 

I'm not knocking the club for doing that and they haven't said anything that I consider to be detrimental to SASS and Cowboy Action Shooting. I'm just trying to prepare for a presentation to the Rules Committee in such a way that I have the most justification possible to continue what we have been doing for the last 20 years.

 

I appreciate the suggestions made here, especially Pale Wolf's. I'll look up some of the references that have been given and try to come up with the best argument that I can. What I'm going to recommend to the club is Shotgun targets at a minimum distance of 8 yards, shot size no larger than # 6, lead only, and only low brass (or light target) loads. Maybe a periodic inspection of the SG targets with the club safety officer to "condemn" targets that are pock-marked or otherwise unsafe would be in order.

 

The Committee has already agreed to permit rifle/pistol targets at 7 yards using SASS recommended loads with lead bullets.

 

I suspect that as more concern develops about liabilities, more clubs will experience the same thing that we're having here.

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Our club has begun having several disciplines other than CAS shoot on the action range including USPSA, IDPA, ICORE, IPSC three gun, Tactical 3-Gun, Steel Challenge, Tactical Shotgun, and several others. Most of these use full loads and jacketed bullets. Their shotgun shooting also uses more "tactical" type loads including buckshot and slugs.

 

...The club started requiring an "incident report" on any incident. Since people started reporting "incidents" it appeared to the club officers that there suddenly started to be a safety problem. The officers appointed a Rules Committee to get all of the club rules written down in one place so that there were some written guidelines.

 

...I'm just trying to prepare for a presentation to the Rules Committee in such a way that I have the most justification possible to continue what we have been doing for the last 20 years.

 

...The Committee has already agreed to permit rifle/pistol targets at 7 yards using SASS recommended loads with lead bullets.

 

I suspect that as more concern develops about liabilities, more clubs will experience the same thing that we're having here.

 

Been there and done this. Yes it's happening all over. A well thought out presentation of how a SASS stage works from loading to unloading, explaining the non-jacketed bullets we use and the safety protocols that are kind of unique to SASS goes a long way to getting the permissions you'll need.

 

If your range starts to go down the road of over-regulating the state of the gun on the action range, be ready to provide another presentation of why we have to load our guns before going to the firing line. It's obvious to us, but it makes little to no sense initially to a bunch of guys who only shoot magazine fed guns. They just don't think about it much which is understandable. Don't get behind the curve on keeping them up to speed on the need to have rules that work for both magazines and single action/tube fed guns. Otherwise they might make decisions on rules before hearing from the CAS shooters. (Been there too)

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Cinch, SASS#29433

Have you measured 15 yards? 45 feet is a lot farther than folks set up their targets! We set up some revolver targets at the club and my helper set up targets that were 5 yards away, but when I stuck my Stanley Fat Max out there they were like 10-1/2 feet out.

 

We regularly put our shotgun targets at 12 steps (not paces because I have seen 5 foot paces) which ends up being like 20-22 feet. If targets were 45 feet away a choke change might be needed...

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JUSTICE AND RIGHT PREVAILS IN THIS WORLD!!

 

I went to the club Executive Committee (which also doubles as the Rules Committee) and made my presentation last night. I had the support and backing of several other disciplines, Wild Bunch, Tactical 3 gun, Multi gun, Tactical shotgun, and IPSC 3 gun. Some of the disciplines had national recommendations others did not. I used the SASS Shooter's Handbook and the Match Director's Guide as references.

 

The Board approved rules changes to permit shotgun targets to be set at 8 yards (as recommended by SASS) with shot size limited to no larger than 7-1/2. They also approved pistol and rifle steel to be set at 7 yards (lead bullets only).

 

We have been shooting shotgun targets at about 8 yards for at least 20 years at the Orlando club and haven't had any problems that I know of. In fact the only reported accidents with steel targets have been with jacketed pistol rounds (other disciplines, not SASS). This rule change will basically make legal what we've been doing all along!

 

Thanks to everyone who gave suggestions. You were a big help!

 

Note to Korrupt Karl: Now everyone gets to plat by Sam's rules!

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excellent news!!!

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Hey Rattler - No call for insults now!

 

If I'da needed a LAWYER, I'da got you to go with me! (Where were you anyway?)

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