Captain Bill Burt Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Stage instructions call for Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun. Shooter begins with rifle and has a mechanical problem of some kind. Shooter declares the rifle dead with rounds still in it, safely grounds it and finishes pistols and shotgun. An expediter brings the rifle to the unloading table where the shooter proceeds to try to clear it (muzzle safe at all times). During this process a round fires into the berm. The shooter isn't sure how, and thanks it was an ABD. Of those present who observed it, nobody contradicts his position, nor does anyone allege he was doing anything unsafe with the rifle. SHB Page 17 says "Malfunctioning guns still containing rounds will not warrant penalties so long as the malfunction is declared and the gun made safe (handed to the Range Officer or placed on a prop with the muzzle in safe direction). At this point, the firearm is still loaded, everyone knows it, and the firearm can be handled in an appropriate manner." SHB Page 25 says "Any discharge that hits the ground or stage prop less than five feet from the shooter, any discharge at the loading or unloading areas, or discharge that is deemed unsafe . I'm wondering if the page 17 exception only applies to penalties for rounds still in the magazine/chamber, not what happens at the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I would say the exception allows the shooter to avoid the penalties associated with ammunition in the rifle. It would not cover the discharge at the ULT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 you're safe if the firearm has been declared broken or other such language... even if someone is helping and they have the AD,,,, no call, if declared ahead of time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying W Ramrod Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Had this happen last weekend. Call was, no call as long as the CRO knew the gun was being worked on at the unloading table and, there was no "designated safe place" to work on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 No call, that's what unloading table safety berms are for..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted October 11, 2014 Author Share Posted October 11, 2014 you're safe if the firearm has been declared broken or other such language... even if someone is helping and they have the AD,,,, no call, if declared ahead of time The PM came to me with this and I wasn't sure what call to make. Those were the two relevant sections I could find, at the time I thought it depended on the shooter's handling of the rifle at the time it went off, safe, or not. In the absence of any evidence that he was irresponsible I decided it was a no call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I agree no call in the OP. Here is a similar situation in that malfunctioning gun was fired at the ULT. However, it was fired straight up. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I stand corrected. I wonder where the "edges" are, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I'm thinkin' its a Match DQ. Some time ago there was a thread about shooting from the unloading table with the Timer Operator's permission, (like clearing a percussion revolver that had malfunctioned) and in that thread as I recall PWB told us ANY discharge from loading table or unloading table, with or without permission is a Match DQ. If that has changed I would like to know for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 I'm thinkin' its a Match DQ. Some time ago there was a thread about shooting from the unloading table with the Timer Operator's permission, (like clearing a percussion revolver that had malfunctioned) and in that thread as I recall PWB told us ANY discharge from loading table or unloading table, with or without permission is a Match DQ. If that has changed I would like to know for sure. It wouldn't apply to malfunctioning firearms which this was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 It wouldn't apply to malfunctioning firearms which this was. Every AD I have ever seen at the unloading table has been from a malfunctioning firearm, and every one has been a Match DQ. I'd like to hear from Pale Wolf on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 IMO, it was unsafe gun handling, a MDQ per p. 16 ROI. "13. Any discharge that hits the ground or stage prop from five to ten feet from the shooter, while on the firing line, will result in a Stage Disqualification. Any discharge that hits the ground or stage prop less than five feet from the shooter while on the firing line, any discharge at the loading or unloading areas, any discharge off the firing line, or any discharge that is deemed unsafe will result in a Match Disqualification." In my example, my call was MDQ because the gun should have been pointed in a safe direction. PM decided it was a no call. IMO, whenever someone has a strong likelihood of injury for an action, that is "unsafe." I cannot see pulling the trigger with a gun pointed in the air or at someone, no matter the gun's condition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Hey Shorty, Does that "." mean you agree with me? Regards, Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 straight up, I would have to go mdq for that, even if declared... maybe... yes, mdq Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted October 11, 2014 Share Posted October 11, 2014 Hey Shorty, Does that "." mean you agree with me? Regards, Allie Just a way of letting y'all know I'm Lurking but not commenting on a WTC I haven't figured out how PWB posts without posting............yet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Just a way of letting y'all know I'm Lurking but not commenting on a WTC I haven't figured out how PWB posts without posting............yet You are a funny guy! BTW I have a long memory and remember why/when the lurking thingy started. I'm glad to see that we've moved beyond that moment in Wire time. ya man! Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Back at ya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Had this happen last weekend. Call was, no call as long as the CRO knew the gun was being worked on at the unloading table and, there was no "designated safe place" to work on it. I like your answer the best. Because you included the 'designated safe place' qualifier. If a range does not have a designated safe place, then i believe the default is the ULT. I bet the ranges that have a 'designated safe place' (to work on firearms) are on top of it too, to have a definition of what their 'designated loading area' is. To answer OP, I would investigate the AD and try to determine who/what/when occurred and if it appeared people involved where working with utmost diligence, safety in mind, mindful of muzzle control, professional and all that, then a No Call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 MDQ....any discharge at the ULT or LT is a MDQ. Just because the gun was "declared" does not relieve the shooter from any unsafe gun handling act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 how in the world is anyone going to try to clear a problem if a gun is broke and yule get a mdq if it fires.....?? this was settled about 5 yrs ago if my memory serves me correctly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 This was settled at least 5 years ago. There is no way to handle an UNSAFE, known loaded and declared malfunctioning firearm other than to get it cleared in a designated 'safe area'. That's why we declare them! What else would you have the shooter and/or a knowledgeable (hopefully) person attempting to make it safe? There must be some ability for the shooter to both declare and handle the firearm in order to make it safe and be out of jeopardy. Further, if the ULT wasn't the proper place to make the gun safe then shame on the ULT officer for letting the shooter work on it there. NO CALL ...next shooter. Bummer on your ABD... it probably bent the lever, loosened the toggles and generally will be a wreck to get it back in reliable service....ask me how I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 MDQ....any discharge at the ULT or LT is a MDQ. Just because the gun was "declared" does not relieve the shooter from any unsafe gun handling act. DECLARED-broken gun. Remember that. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 RO I, Page 17, paragraph 18: 18. A live round left in the chamber constitutes a Stage Disqualification. A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the gun in which it was loaded, constitutes a 10-second Minor Safety violation. Malfunctioning guns still containing rounds will not warrant penalties so long as the malfunction is declared and the gun made safe (handed to the Range Officer or placed on a prop with the muzzle in safe direction). At this point, the firearm is still loaded, everyone knows it, and the firearm can be handled in an appropriate manner. I understand this to mean that when a gun is declared broken or malfunctioning, there will be no penalty assessed if there is a round in the chamber or on the carrier. The question is, does it also apply to the MDQ if an accidental discharge occurs? I don't think it does...I think if the gun goes bang at the unloading table, the shooter gets the MDQ. I might be wrong. I would like to hear from PWB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 RO I, Page 17, paragraph 18: 18. A live round left in the chamber constitutes a Stage Disqualification. A live round left in the magazine or on the carrier, as well as an empty round left in the chamber, magazine, or on the carrier of the gun in which it was loaded, constitutes a 10-second Minor Safety violation. Malfunctioning guns still containing rounds will not warrant penalties so long as the malfunction is declared and the gun made safe (handed to the Range Officer or placed on a prop with the muzzle in safe direction). At this point, the firearm is still loaded, everyone knows it, and the firearm can be handled in an appropriate manner. I understand this to mean that when a gun is declared broken or malfunctioning, there will be no penalty assessed if there is a round in the chamber or on the carrier. The question is, does it also apply to the MDQ if an accidental discharge occurs? I don't think it does...I think if the gun goes bang at the unloading table, the shooter gets the MDQ. I might be wrong. I would like to hear from PWB I believe the rule as highlighted answers this. If the ULT is the designated safe area, where is the shooter supposed to go to deal with the malfunction? I don't want 'em headed back to their cart with it. There's always a risk of an AD when clearing a malfunctioning gun. As long it's declared and muzzle control is maintained, I think it's a no-call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 It's not an AD! OR and ND! It's also not 'unsafe gunhandling'. The gun is broken FCS....there is absolutely no way to predict what will happen with a malfunctioning firearm, especially one with a round in the chamber. It must be cleared somehow... round into the berm makes it safe to disassemble. Man, we have stooped to a new level of hard-ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Assessment of a penalty will depend on varying circumstances and conditions. (e.g. unsafe handling of the firearm in an area not designated for clearing a malfunction) There is no "every time, no matter what" application of the rule. FYI: The penalties that do NOT apply after declaration of a malfunction would be:1) Penalties for "rounds remaining" (although the 5-second/misses for "unfired rounds" still apply).2) Penalties for "round under the hammer" (as long as a revolver is NOT HOLSTERED in that condition) 3) Penalty for a "cocked firearm leaving the shooter's hand(s)"3) "Traveling" if the shooter must move in order to SAFELY ground the firearm on a prop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 It must be cleared somehow... round into the berm makes it safe to disassemble. Man, we have stooped to a new level of hard-ass. The new Cowboy Way. BTW, it would be nice to inform all of putting bullet into the berm to make safe. Better yet, take to firing line and discharge there.. Even BETTER YET!! take gun to empty berm (providing you have side berms) and work on there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muleshoe Bill SASS #67022 Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 Sometimes it is just plain stupid to try and assign penalties where the SHOOTER did nothing. Malfunctions occur. Get over all this left wing safety bull. Jeeze no wonder I find it nearly impossible to get any enthusiasm about going to a match anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 The new Cowboy Way.BTW, it would be nice to inform all of putting bullet into the berm to make safe. Better yet, take to firing line and discharge there.. Even BETTER YET!! take gun to empty berm (providing you have side berms) and work on there. You're distorting the facts. The shooter had finished the course of fire with a declared malfunction. He received his rifle from an expediter and everyone knew he was trying to clear a broken/jammed gun. I don't know how matches you shoot in are run, but we don't try to intentionally discharge guns whose condition is declared as broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 You're distorting the facts. The shooter had finished the course of fire with a declared malfunction. He received his rifle from an expediter and everyone knew he was trying to clear a broken/jammed gun. I don't know how matches you shoot in are run, but we don't try to intentionally discharge guns whose condition is declared as broken. Bill-Sometimes you just gotta fire it, to make it safe to disassemble and/or transport. BTDT-- LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 You're distorting the facts. The shooter had finished the course of fire with a declared malfunction. He received his rifle from an expediter and everyone knew he was trying to clear a broken/jammed gun. I don't know how matches you shoot in are run, but we don't try to intentionally discharge guns whose condition is declared as broken. No distortion of facts, I was speaking in generality. It would not surprise me if some Nimrod at some match would intentionally drop the hammer on a malfuntioning gun at the ULT in the attempt to fix it.. Nothing like hearing a gun shot behind you. I have had the misfortune of hearing a gun shot behind me while doing posse duties (AD at LT to be exact) Edit: I do remember a Nimrod at a far away club , one time, that intentionally discharged a firearm (rifl) from the ULT, down range, at the end of the stage shooting. I believe most of the posse had already moved to next berm. If you stay in this game long enough, you will witness some really bazzar stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlietwogunz Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 In the rare event of my having a malfunction, usually rifle jam, that I cant clear at the line It is my practice to gently carry the firearm to the ULT pass it off to the ULTO then step back & allow the "tinkerers" do their thing. If by chance there would be an AD it would not be me. BTW can one have an AD without a finger on the trigger at some point ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted October 12, 2014 Share Posted October 12, 2014 PWB So the pentaly for discharge at a loading or unloading table even if the table is declaired the poper area for working on the malfunctions firearm still applies do the pentaly is a MDQ, correct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted October 12, 2014 Author Share Posted October 12, 2014 Actually I think he's implying that the particular conditions, ie no designated safe area, ULT is where work is done, in conjunction with declared malfunction and no observed unsafe actions puts it in a gray area where judgement of the official comes into play. I think.....I'm sure he'll let me know if I'm mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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