Dutch Coroner Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 If during a stage, a shooter's buckle on their pistol belt breaks (for example) and their rig and loaded pistols end up completely on the ground, what's the call? Assume the pistols do not come out of the holsters. Is it a MDQ because loaded guns are on the ground or because the pistols are still "safely secured in the holsters", is it equipment failure with 10 misses? Something else? ROI, Appendix A, Range Safety Rules Page 14 2. Safe Gun Handling ...A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster. If MDQ is the call, what's the difference between this and a shooter falling down, holsters on the ground,but as long as the pistols stay in the holsters, no call? Am I just over thinking it? Loaded guns on the ground, end of story? Thanks guys, Dutch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Hey Dutch, No Call Overthought Buy a new Buckle Diet?? Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 I say no call and I'm gonna find a way to finish the stage. Did this question come up because you thought I was asking too much of my rig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 What about the 10 unfired rounds, assuming the shooter doesn't shoot the pistols? Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waimea Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Is it a "dropped firearm"? RO I pg 29 Dropped firearm–a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and come to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended. Shooter falling down is no call because it was not his guns that had lost control of, it was his legs/body. Guns are still where they are s'possed to be. Gotta go with MDQ for loaded on this one. SDQ for unloaded (already shot). Sorry, Dutch. Waimea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 This has been thrashed out before. No call for the belt/holsters falling, if the pistols stay in the holsters. As far as unfired rounds, 5 second penalty for each unfired round, as usual. Laz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 NO CALL...NOT "dropped firearms" 5-seconds for each unfired round...assuming the shooter is unable to recover the revolvers safely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 No call unless the gun or guns are completely out of the holster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waimea Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 I CLAIM THE 90% RULE I don't answer these things because 90% of the time I am wrong. However, I will fight this, just for the record and not to be a harda$$ because I am not but definitions are definitions If your belt breaks and your hosters fall on the ground that seems a pretty clear cut case to me that YOUR "firearm that has left the shooter’s control and come to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended." Quote/Unquote. Sad and not how you want anybody's day to go but it's The definition of a dropped gun. The only thing left to do is determine if it's loaded or unloaded. MDQ or SDQ. Now I will go back to shooting and leave the ROing to someone WAY more capable than I am. Waimea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dutch Coroner Posted October 4, 2014 Author Share Posted October 4, 2014 Thanks guys. And no, the MDQ was not made on me, but it was made on another shooter today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 no call. Safely retrieve and shoot so there are no misses other than actual misses Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Thanks guys. And no, the MDQ was not made on me, but it was made on another shooter today. whoever issued the penalty blew it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Asked and answered is what my lawyer friends would say... Belt buckle breaks guns stay in the holsters? No call and ten misses unless the RO and shooter can figure a way to safely retrieve them during the stage. (I'd say leave'em be, taking the misses is quicker!) A shooter who falls and the revolvers remain in their holsters is also a no call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubious Don #56333 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 I CLAIM THE 90% RULE I don't answer these things because 90% of the time I am wrong. However, I will fight this, just for the record and not to be a harda$$ because I am not but definitions are definitions If your belt breaks and your hosters fall on the ground that seems a pretty clear cut case to me that YOUR "firearm that has left the shooter’s control and come to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended." Quote/Unquote. Sad and not how you want anybody's day to go but it's The definition of a dropped gun. The only thing left to do is determine if it's loaded or unloaded. MDQ or SDQ. Now I will go back to shooting and leave the ROing to someone WAY more capable than I am. Waimea Thank goodness! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 To reiterate (from the OP): A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster. SHB p.22 / RO1 p.14 NOTE: it does NOT specify "while being worn". Holstered revolvers on the ground (or sidewalk, or hanging from a fence, or sitting on a table) are covered under the rule cited above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Missouri Marshal SASS #50682 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 The guns are still where they are supposed to be....in the holster. It's the holster/rig that was dropped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Hi Dutch, If you hear someone say they never read the Wire, you could tell them they might have known the right answer to that one if they did. It has been asked and answered here several times. Regards, Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colt McCloud, SASS #65003L Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Refer to post #7 and #15! And Ms Allie Mo makes a good point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Just wonderin'.. Were the pistols the first guns to be shot in the stage?? If they were... Then it would be a restart.. no rounds downrange.. If not.. 10 misses... Rance Thinkin' I'd probably leave them lay on the ground and take the misses if they were to be shot later in the stage.. Shouldn't have been a MDQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 Having been in the situation just not on the line and I was able to grab the belt. Dang cheap bulckes. Equipment failure is the cause. But not range equipment it was shooter equipment so no reshoot. Been me I would finish long gun string, if pistols were next grab belt stage guns safely shoot string reholster the pistols finish stage unless the to stops me. At that point I might get a reshoot to be determined after each thing is sorted out. In my opinion no dropped guns as the guns are still holstered. No call for dropped guns because both revolvers never lefy the holster per the rule on holstering. Staging them OM the clock is legal as long as they are returned to holster after the string. So no call there. Any misses, procedurals, safeties would be applied as per normal. If I was held up by the to when I tried to stage the guns then the reshoot is awarded. But I could be im left field as I'm do for my two year RO refressor training. So let the hail of bullets begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lone Dog, SASS #20401 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 WHY take ten misses. I am old and slow but I bet I could retrieve the whole rig, stage it, pull the pistols as needed and finish the stage way quicker than the 50 second hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 I love the "In MY opinion"...comments. Who cares about your opinions? The rules are what they are...stick with them. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gawd Awful Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 I love the "In MY opinion"...comments. Who cares about your opinions? The rules are what they are...stick with them. Phantom Well said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 BUT, but, but, I sometimes have opinions about what a rule means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 I love the "In MY opinion"...comments. Who cares about your opinions? The rules are what they are...stick with them. Phantom Well In my opinion Picking up the rig and safely finishing the stage is an opinion and a dangged good one Smile-smile-smile Mileage shall vary in many cases Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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