What's the call

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

My experience has been 'you shoot the proper target in the proper order OR ELSE IT"S A P". Right or not, that's how it works.

 

 

 

Your experience has been corrupted by folks not telling you the complete rules. Folks continue to do you a disservice by not INSISTING you and they become familiar with the rules of how targets are spotted. First part of the MISS FLOW CHART is, as has been quoted several times already, to consider if the shooter put all the shots from a particular type of gun onto the correct type of targets. In this example he did not. Thus, your next consideration is to count the misses resulting from not putting the shots on target (or for not firing enough shots). THEN you consider if there were sequence problems or other Procedural penalties.

 

 

Say you have 5 targets in a row and you miss number 2 by shooting right and hit 3, then shoot at 3, 4, 5 and hit them. P? Nope, a miss. BUT I guarantee it will be called a P all day long.

 

IF the correct-type targets were separated enough to offer the shooter a clear chance to cleanly miss the target, then the shooter gets a P for hitting target 3 out of order. That will be called EVERY time by spotters who know the rules. If the targets overlap or are set very close together, the rules call for that shot to be called a Miss, not a P. That should also be called a Miss every time by knowledgeable spotters.

 

 

 

 

We can't read intent in the shooters mind.

 

So you shoot a rifle target with a pistol..miss of the pistol target or intent to hit what you aimed at? If it's the latter it's a P just as much as if you shot the targets in reverse order - you aimed, you hit. Not a miss- an aim and hit at the wrong target - a P.

 

Almost nothing in the rules requires you to take the intent of the shooter into account. In fact, some of us are campaigning to clean up any remaining parts of the rules that even imply that you have to consider intent on the part of the shooter. Judge the results by the results.

 

 

 

 

Some of the difficulty lies in the SASS definition of MISS - it is not the common street concept! It is the more precise, shooting competition definition, where you have to hit exactly what you were INSTRUCTED to hit. Aiming errors, brain errors, fire control errors, most of those are going to result in a MISS.

 

 

Miss – a failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate firearm type. For further

explanation of how to assess a miss, see “Miss Flow Chart” in the appendix to ROI Manual. (see

also “5-second Penalties” section of the ROI “PENALTY OVERVIEW”)

From RO I Handbook, Definition Section, page 30

 

Until you learn this definition, you cannot score properly.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Anvil Al #59168]

So you're really saying all shooters need to take the RO course before they ever shoot a match. Because you KNOW more than the RO/TO is gonna have input into what the score is - miss or p? It's why we have spotters, and most do more than just call M or P.

 

So you've got scoring by committee.

 

My experience has been 'you shoot the proper target in the proper order OR ELSE IT"S A P". Right or not, that's how it works.

 

Say you have 5 targets in a row and you miss number 2 by shooting right and hit 3, then shoot at 3, 4, 5 and hit them. P? Nope, a miss. BUT I guarantee it will be called a P all day long.

 

We can't read intent in the shooters mind.

 

So you shoot a rifle target with a pistol..miss of the pistol target or intent to hit what you aimed at? If it's the latter it's a P just as much as if you shot the targets in reverse order - you aimed, you hit. Not a miss- an aim and hit at the wrong target - a P.

 

 

They should take it as soon as possible. And really take it before they start telling everyone what and how the rules are.

 

And a lot depends on how the targets are set up. 5 targets and you are to sweep them and you hit the wrong one may or may not be a P.

Was there room for a clean miss???? Or was the targets overlapping and REAL close??? You see. I lot of how things are

called depend on this.

If room for a clean miss. Then YES it's a P. Targets that are REAL close or overlapping. Then you would get a miss if it

hit the target next to it.

 

You always seem to jump in and tell us how the rules should be when you just started and have VERY little SASS

experience and have not taken any RO course. There are times to maybe set back and learn.

[Sedalia Dave]

Thanks to PWB, Garrison Joe, Anvil Al and the others who took the time to write clear answers to this thread. You sure can learn a lot reading the questions and answers. Real world examples to help cement what you can learn from reading ALL THREE handbooks.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

Perhaps he was

Or

Maybe it happened to fast

Or

Maybe they just flat out earned the penalty that was awarded

I do not time any more, due to statements like yours

I still,have a Commodore 64 mother board in my main frame

It is slower then shooters that I time in some cases

His question is valid. Your response is less so.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

. Real world examples to help cement what you can learn from reading ALL THREE handbooks.

Real world example........four rifle targets on left @ 35'.....four pistol targets on right @21'. "With shotgun shoot the four KDs. Move to table 2, with rifle shoot a Nevada sweep on the left four rifle targets..................., with pistols shoot a Nevada sweep on the right four pistol targets."

Shooter shoots KDs, moves to table 2, shoots rifle targets clean. Draws pistols and shoots a perfect Nevada sweep on the rifle targets = 10 misses. Why?? because he missed the pistol targets 10 times. Good Luck

 

• To help understand this concept, a “MISS FLOW CHART” is found in Appendix C. It is

also good to understand “A MISS CANNOT CAUSE A PROCEDURAL.”

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Krazy Kajun]

I think the set up of 5 targets the way Junky had them is a good thing.....used both in R and P sequences. Less steel to haul. Granted the stage requires a little more concentration to shoot it correctly but it is still a good stage.

 

I'm not making any excuses for anyone who shot it in the wrong order or sequence.....shooter needs to understand the course of fire. If the shooter has a question they should make sure they have it answered before saying the starting line.

[Duncan Disorderly]

 

 

You always seem to jump in and tell us how the rules should be when you just started and have VERY little SASS

experience and have not taken any RO course. There are times to maybe set back and learn.

Having shot 7 matches at 5 clubs what you're describing I've seen at ONE club and ONLY one club The other 4? As I describe, the 'rules' are 'fuzzy. - as are the classes (renegade? cattle baron? outlaw? not in the rules anyplace I can find them).

So some stuff is 'made up' or perhaps 'locally agreed upon'...

 

Where do MOST shooters learn the rules? AT MATCHES. How many SASS members are there? And how many more shoot that are not? Tens of thousands. How many come here? 100? 300?

I've never seen a rule book at a shoot,never been asked if I read one. I get told "we'll tell you want to do" or 'go spot'. I've assisted in setup/teardown, spotting, running the timer, picking up brass - no written or verbal test required. As I said ONE CLUB (tusco) seems to be 'on the ball' as you might say. the rest are more informal.

 

So what I'm stating is WHAT I"VE SEEN DONE. Or been told to do. Or seen come about from a discussion after something happened. I'm learning bad habits - as are many others.

 

And as a newer shooter I"m certainly not gonna be the guy to tell the match director who'd been doing it for years he's got it all wrong.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Well I don't know what clubs you are going to or how they run them. Might stick with the one that is on the ball.

 

They try not to overload new shooters. There is just to much to learn. So they only give them the basic stuff.

It is up to the shooter to learn the rest. As you have to go through 1st grade before you start taking high school courses. So they don't want to just flat out over load a new shooter.

And at only 7 matches. You are about as new as they come. But you seem to want to jump from 1st grade to

college courses.

 

Have you ASKED them if there was a RO class coming up??

 

 

And you don't have to TELL the MD his job. But if you think a rule is one way. And they call it another. THAT is a good learning opportunity.

 

All you have to do it ASK. Is that a SASS rule of just a local thing. And this can be done in a nice way as to not make anyone mad. BUT still learn the correct call at the same time.

 

I know you have been offered some help before. And did not take advantage of it.

[Yusta B.]

Cow Chip

You have access to all 3 rule books right here. Download & print them if necessary. Read them & refer to them when commenting on WTCs you read here. When at a shoot, make the calls YOU KNOW are correct. Pay special attention to posts by Pale Wolf Brunell. He is the ROC spokesman. Please read & memorize the Miss Flowchart. Refer to it when discussing or commenting on calls made on this forum. Stick with it, most of us learn about new situations often from this forum. Most of all have fun shooting. We have all gone through a long learning curve that time & experience will improve. And yes, you will get excellent experience at Tusco. First rate club with helpful first rate cowboys. I shot there for 5 years.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Having shot 7 matches at 5 clubs what you're describing I've seen at ONE club and ONLY one club The other 4? As I describe, the 'rules' are 'fuzzy. - as are the classes (renegade? cattle baron? outlaw? not in the rules anyplace I can find them).

So some stuff is 'made up' or perhaps 'locally agreed upon'...

 

Where do MOST shooters learn the rules? AT MATCHES. How many SASS members are there? And how many more shoot that are not? Tens of thousands. How many come here? 100? 300?

I've never seen a rule book at a shoot,never been asked if I read one. I get told "we'll tell you want to do" or 'go spot'. I've assisted in setup/teardown, spotting, running the timer, picking up brass - no written or verbal test required. As I said ONE CLUB (tusco) seems to be 'on the ball' as you might say. the rest are more informal.

 

So what I'm stating is WHAT I"VE SEEN DONE. Or been told to do. Or seen come about from a discussion after something happened. I'm learning bad habits - as are many others.

 

And as a newer shooter I"m certainly not gonna be the guy to tell the match director who'd been doing it for years he's got it all wrong.

Every club has a Territorial Governor. Ask someone to point him/her out.

The TG should be aware of who the RO instructors are in your area.

Instructors are required to be up to date on all the latest rules and their application.

If their isn't an instructor at your club(s) then send a private message to Palewolf and he will put you in touch with the regional instructor to set up classes for you and yours.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

So you're really saying all shooters need to take the RO course before they ever shoot a match. Because you KNOW more than the RO/TO is gonna have input into what the score is - miss or p? It's why we have spotters, and most do more than just call M or P.

 

So you've got scoring by committee.

 

My experience has been 'you shoot the proper target in the proper order OR ELSE IT"S A P". Right or not, that's how it works.

 

Say you have 5 targets in a row and you miss number 2 by shooting right and hit 3, then shoot at 3, 4, 5 and hit them. P? Nope, a miss. BUT I guarantee it will be called a P all day long.

 

We can't read intent in the shooters mind.

 

So you shoot a rifle target with a pistol..miss of the pistol target or intent to hit what you aimed at? If it's the latter it's a P just as much as if you shot the targets in reverse order - you aimed, you hit. Not a miss- an aim and hit at the wrong target - a P.

 

 

Just about all the above is just wrong. And ONE more time -- we do not shoot in classes, we shoot in categories. No time like when you are starting out to get that straight. And yes I know we have multi-decade shooters and world champs who cannot get this thru their heads bless their hearts. As Strother sez, "some men you just cain't reach".