Who come Wild Bunchers can't shoot SASS matches when no WB matches are available?

[Diamond S Doug]

What I wanna know is which Wild bunch matches are we allowed to show up and shoot cowboy at?

 

Any of them...just bring 6 pistols.... ....yeah that's a joke folks....

[Madd Mike #8595]

There are specific rule differences

Wild bunch is not ment to be just big-close-simple stage design

And when tried together I have noticed a good percentage of CAS shooters are put off by it

[Kynoch]

I can only speak for what we do in our part of the Great White North (we have had snow already) but we do include Wild Bunch as a category in many monthly CAS matchs.

 

At the Central Canadian Regional Championship we had 18 shoot the WB side match.

 

When you are trying to grow the game in an area with a relataively small population you have to use any means necessary.

 

California has a greater population than all of Canada. Just as Orange County has a greater population than New Mexico. So when I hear that a monthly WB match in Califonia can draw 70 shooters I say hoorah. .Wish we could up here but we don't have 70 WB shooters in the whole province.

 

There is no issue with target damage or lost brass if the targets are good and you are not shooting in ankle high grass.

 

A few yeas ago I was involved in a new range inspecion by the Chief Provincial Firearms Office.

 

All ranges are inspected every few years. The inspector asked us what we planned to shoot and was told Cowboy Action, Wild Bunch and Wild Bunch rules 3 Gun.

 

The CFO considers SASS the safest of all the action games but he asked about WB rules 3 Gun.

 

We told him to think WB but with modern guns. He said send him an overview and he would get back .

 

An e-mail was sent and the approval was received the next day.

 

This may be shocking to some of the"purests" but we sometimes run all in one matchs.

 

Cowboy, Wild Bunch and WB rules 3 Gun all on the same stages using the same scenarious with small changes for WB and 3 Gun.

 

Stoney

That's quite interesting, thanks for the input. How does WB differ from "WB rules 3 Gun" at your range? Do you use modern firearms when shooting "WB rules 3 Gun"? In any event the fact that your range supports all three sounds very nice.

 

I certainly understand that in ideal situations due to target difficulty, flow/speed of the match, etc. it's best to have seperate WB and SASS matches but in the case where there are no WB available, I don't understand why WIld BUnchers can't shoot simply as another category.

[Kynoch]

The Cowboys of Norco do honor the WB class at their monthly matches and the Cajon Cowboys in Devore have a class called "Pike" which uses the 1911 for both rifle and pistol targets along with a 97 sg that can't be loaded until on the clock.

 

Add in all the W3G matches and the other clubs around here that allow the use of 1911s and Ca shooters have plenty of options.

 

While maybe not the same perfect scenario as separate WB matches every weekend, 1911s CAN be incorporated into SASS matches given the right attitudes.

Thanks for the response. It's interesting to learn that there really isn't a technical reason not to allow WIld Bunchers toi compete in a SASS match when there is no WB match available.

 

As you say, it's not the perfect scenario bit it's very doable. It's also important to point out that the any shortcomings of such a situation impact the Wild Buncher and not those around them.

[Six-Shot]

Here in New England, on the "Island-of-Rhode", all monthly CAS shoots have included WB as a category. As an aside, I've also attended regular CAS shoots at other clubs where "Plainsman" is shot along with the other categories - the only difference being the number of rifle shots per stage (5 or 6 instead of the customary 10).

FWIW,Doc

Not too much any more Doc. It seems CAS has fixated on 10-10-4 for speed. I can't remember the last time I shot Plainsman or Wild Bunch. I miss shooting them. If more clubs offered them at monthly shoots I would shoot in them.

[Kynoch]

In Orlando Cowboys shoot right along with Wild Bunchers and we seem to all get along just fine.

 

Last match they even had 6 SG targets. 3 and 3 SPLIT!

Didn't even hear a grumble from the guys that had doubles!

 

Sometimes there's more cowboys at the WB match than WB.

Nobody complains, we're shooting and having fun together.

 

 

Waimea

 

That's absolutely awesome.

[Kynoch]

The Cowboys only allow Wild bunch to shoot during our 4th of July extra match (not regular monthly) and even then they are not put in the overall standings. Other than that it is kept as a side match at annual events.

Why is that do you think?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

And you seem to think that solving the attitude and political problems are easier than technical problems?? Not always. YMMV, and you ought to know that each club is different from the next in what is supported and feasible.

 

Why not try calling ahead and then just going to the clubs where you can "have the burger your own way?"

 

Good luck, GJ

[Madd Mike #8595]

That's quite interesting, thanks for the input.

 

I certainly understand that in ideal situations due to target difficulty, flow/speed of the match, etc. it's best to have seperate WB and SASS matches but in the case where there are no WB available, I don't understand why WIld BUnchers can't shoot simply as another category.

Not enough CAS timer operators know the wild bunch rules well enough

Many CAS shooters dang near have a heart attach when they see the wild bunch shooter load their shotgun at the loading table and walk up to shoot the stage with the action closed

Wild Bunch shooters for the most part want to shoot more than 4 shotgun and 10 pistol rounds in a stage

These types of differences can create problems, and also bad habits in shooters, in some cases

[Bramble Mountain Buzzard]

We have one range up here in the Frozen North that shoots all winter. During those times, those of us that want to shoot Wild Bunch have no issues at all. We shoot the same 10-10-4 as everyone else. Like what was mentioned earlier, you just need RO's that are familiar with Wild Bunch rules.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Why is that do you think?

Because we are a SASS club and Wild Bunch is a different sport. We also do not have a western 3 gun category.

[Kynoch]

And you seem to think that solving the attitude and political problems are easier than technical problems?? Not always. YMMV, and you ought to know that each club is different from the next in what is supported and feasible.

 

Why not try calling ahead and then just going to the clubs where you can "have the burger your own way?"

 

Good luck, GJ

Until I started this thread I had no idea that not allowing WBers to shoot in SASS matches (in many places) was a matter of attitude and politics. After reading through this thread and doing some additional reading today, it's clear there are no real technical/safety issues exist -- only excuses. The actual reasons do indeed boil down to attitude and politics.

 

There are indeed legitimate reasons why Wild Bunchers might not want to participate in SASS matches -- targeting that is not sufficiently challenging, slower running matches, etc., but if they want to shoot why not let them? Now I know why some do not want to allow them -- "attitude and political problems."

 

Ignorance begets bigotry and bigotry begets bad attitudes and political gaming. In no way would I ever suggest that "attitude and political problems" are easier to deal with than technical problems. I simply didn't know that they existed in SASS.

 

To the several postings on this thread that mentioned WBers and CASers routinely shooting together -- GOOD FOR YOU! Godspeed! I certainly wish that was the case where I live. I will indeed look for a SASS group that welcomes WB shooters and does not relegate them to a terribly truncated "side match" or nothing at all.

[Kynoch]

We have one range up here in the Frozen North that shoots all winter. During those times, those of us that want to shoot Wild Bunch have no issues at all. We shoot the same 10-10-4 as everyone else. Like what was mentioned earlier, you just need RO's that are familiar with Wild Bunch rules.

It's so cool to read postings like this!

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

It is not a matter of attitudes or politics but where does it end? If we allow WB to shoot with 1911s why then not allow IPSC shooters to join us with theirs, after all there is no safety or technical reason not to?

[Kynoch]

It is not a matter of attitudes or politics but where does it end? If we allow WB to shoot with 1911s why then not allow IPSC shooters to join us with theirs, after all there is no safety or technical reason not to?

It most certainly is a matter of attitudes and politics. That much is pretty clear. I would propose the best way when deviating/extending from existing SASS limits (which are by no means always historic) would be to rely on actual history.

 

While it was coming to an end, the "Old West" was still very much operational when the Winchester M1912 and the M1911 became commonly available. I have a photo dating from 1903 that shows a cowboy carrying a Mauser C96 pistol for instance.

 

FWIW and I'm not condoning it for SASS, some other major shooting disciplines DO EMBRACE other safe forms of firearms. You can shooting single actions revolvers (using SASS rules) in a Steel Challenge match for example.

[Bad Hand]

You know I wonder about someone who isn't even a SASS member wanting to change how we play our game. Sure why not 1911s and model 12s? Of course why not double action revolvers, they were much more common than 1911s, or semi auto shotguns, they are period correct. Let's not forget a couple of semi auto rifles that also fit into the time covered. From the first postings, it has always been "Wild Bunch is not SASS with 1911s" lets keep it that way.

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

Kynoch, you're pretty much wasting your time. You're not going to sway anybody over to your side. One man's common sense is another man's nonsense. As has been suggested, you should just look for clubs that allow it and shoot with them.

 

Newt

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

It most certainly is a matter of attitudes and politics. That much is pretty clear. I would propose the best way when deviating/extending from existing SASS limits (which are by no means always historic) would be to rely on actual history.

 

While it was coming to an end, the "Old West" was still very much operational when the Winchester M1912 and the M1911 became commonly available. I have a photo dating from 1903 that shows a cowboy carrying a Mauser C96 pistol for instance.

 

FWIW and I'm not condoning it for SASS, some other major shooting disciplines DO EMBRACE other safe forms of firearms. You can shooting single actions revolvers (using SASS rules) in a Steel Challenge match for example.

Is a Gatling gun historically correct enough? They are pistol caliber correct?

[Cypress Sun]

Until I started this thread I had no idea that not allowing WBers to shoot in SASS matches (in many places) was a matter of attitude and politics. After reading through this thread and doing some additional reading today, it's clear there are no real technical/safety issues exist -- only excuses. The actual reasons do indeed boil down to attitude and politics.

 

There are indeed legitimate reasons why Wild Bunchers might not want to participate in SASS matches -- targeting that is not sufficiently challenging, slower running matches, etc., but if they want to shoot why not let them? Now I know why some do not want to allow them -- "attitude and political problems."

 

Ignorance begets bigotry and bigotry begets bad attitudes and political gaming. In no way would I ever suggest that "attitude and political problems" are easier to deal with than technical problems. I simply didn't know that they existed in SASS.

 

To the several postings on this thread that mentioned WBers and CASers routinely shooting together -- GOOD FOR YOU! Godspeed! I certainly wish that was the case where I live. I will indeed look for a SASS group that welcomes WB shooters and does not relegate them to a terribly truncated "side match" or nothing at all.

 

Have you just chosen to ignore the posts referring to the difference in rules and the lack of RO's/spotter with knowledge of the WB rules? Do you wonder why WB shooters know the SASS rules but the SASS shooters don't know the WB rules? Attitude and political problems....really? Tell me why I should have to learn the WB rules for a SASS match.....name one good reason. You can't.

 

For the record, I have nothing against WB......it's alot of fun. I just don't think that it is as easy to include a WB category in a SASS match vs including a SASS category into a WB match due to the difference in rules.

 

I suggest that you seek out the WB matches as much as you can and not try to run an Indy Car race and a Nascar race at the same time, on the same track.

[Madd Mike #8595]

It's so cool to read postings like this!

SASS HEADQUARTERS wants Wild Bunch matches to stand on their own two feet

 

If you choose to mix it up (training wheels) for lack of a better term, then separate the shoots as soon as possible

No says you CANT

 

HEADQUARTERS OFFERS

SASS CAS

SASS MOUNTED SHOOTING

SASS WILD BUNCH

and they are Are different SASS shooting venues

 

I for one would not attend WB shoots if they were just 10-10-4, I have done just that for better than a decade, looking for something new and wild bunch is it for me

When we had training wheels on our newly formed wild bunch shoots, we would require that the wild bunch shooters shoot 20 pistol, just double the stage design of the CAS shooters, the CAS shooters very heavily complained about being burdened with picking up the extra acp brass from those other shooters,,,,,,,true story

 

Yes our wild bunch shoots are small, but I very much enjoy the separation and freedom of stage design::recommended by headquarters for wild bunch

 

Mileage will vary as usual

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Not too much any more Doc. It seems CAS has fixated on 10-10-4 for speed. I can't remember the last time I shot Plainsman or Wild Bunch. I miss shooting them. If more clubs offered them at monthly shoots I would shoot in them.

10-10-4 maybe the norm for your area-Not where I shoot.

We still do on the clock reloads and carry props etc.

High Desert Cowboys is 'ol-school SASS. And will never change------

Respectfully,

LG

[Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884]

 

 

...some other major shooting disciplines DO EMBRACE other safe forms of firearms. You can shoot single actions revolvers (using SASS rules) in a Steel Challenge match for example...

...but you can's shoot semi-auto pistols in SASS CAS. Next shooter!

 

Fillmore

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

In reading this thread it appears that at least some WB shooters seem to project a feeling of superiority over SASS non WB shooters. Maybe shooting more targets, at longer distances, with bigger bore guns, with higher power factors is the main contributor. Do WB shooters have a feeling of superiority over SASS shooters? I personally have observed what I concluded as such an attitude via some of the SASS Wire posts a couple of the leaders of the WB movement have made over the months/years. Having a separate forum for WB may have been a very good idea. Maybe I am just an old fart that resists change and reading more into posts some folks make. Talking with others at many venues, this view is certainly not isolated to just me.

[Church Key, SASS # 33713]

I'm both SASS RO II and WB RO certified. If what you mean by shooting WB in CAS is only substituting a 1911 for revolvers, it's not a really big deal except for the significant differences in making a 1911 safe after shooting it. However, shooting using full WB rules is a much bigger issue. Stoking of shotguns, checking Mod. 12's for a cocked hammer, no reholstering without showing clear, dropping slides and pulling triggers, no gun handoffs for malfunctions, no showing pistols clear at the unloading table, trigger finger issues, no dropping slides while moving or tabling pistols, etc. Clearing 1911 malfunctions will drive a CAS TO not familiar with 1911's bonkers.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Kynock.

 

If there is no WB in your area. THEN START ONE. Don't try to horn in on a cowboy match.

 

If you want one start one. If you don't. Then why not? Sounds like just an excuse to me.

 

 

ANVIL AL. Who is not afraid to post under his name and not hide behind a fake one.

[Kynoch]

You know I wonder about someone who isn't even a SASS member wanting to change how we play our game. Sure why not 1911s and model 12s? Of course why not double action revolvers, they were much more common than 1911s, or semi auto shotguns, they are period correct. Let's not forget a couple of semi auto rifles that also fit into the time covered. From the first postings, it has always been "Wild Bunch is not SASS with 1911s" lets keep it that way.

 

Not being a SASS member has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Shame on you for suggesting it does.

 

WB rules are already codified. It's one thing for SASS to allow shooters who already compete under documented WB rules to take part in their matches -- which appears to be quite common in many places. It's quite another for an undefined group to take part. If SASS were to evaluate whether or not to allow an additional group in addition to WB, I would suggest the main part of their decision should indeed by based on history so long as there are no safety or technical issues.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

 

Not being a SASS member has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Shame on you for suggesting it does.

 

WB rules are already codified. It's one thing for SASS to allow shooters who already compete under documented WB rules to take part in their matches -- which appears to be quite common in many places. It's quite another for an undefined group to take part. If SASS were to evaluate whether or not to allow an additional group in addition to WB, I would suggest the main part of their decision should indeed by based on history so long as there are no safety or technical issues.

But it's rude...and in poor taste...to jump into a forum and attack...as is insulting the abilities of CAS shooters.

 

Phantom

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

...

 

 

ANVIL AL. Who is not afraid to post under his name and not hide behind a fake one.

See my post 11. I cannot find any evidence of that.

[Cypress Sun]

 

 

 

ANVIL AL. Who is not afraid to post under his name and not hide behind a fake one.

 

Now that is too funny............

 

I know what you meant Al.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

I was gone all day and couldn't jump in.

 

Anyway, we are lucky in the Sacramento area to have a dedicated WBAS club that follows WBAS rules. Kynoch, we shoot the third Saturday of the month. Look at the following Website for details. http://www.californiagunslingers.com/

 

Now for a personal story that I think stinks. Around 2005, Hubby's peripheral neuropathy started getting really bad. So, he bought a Lightening to prevent pulling the trigger accidentally when levering. He still had troubles with the '97 and the SAAs. So, he asked the current president of the club Hubby helped found if he could shoot a 1911 and stoke the pump in a separate category. The president would not allow it. So, when WBAS came along, he tried that. Unfortunately, the matches lasted two hours longer than CAS matches and he could not stay on his feet that long due to degenerative disc disease.

 

So, if you ask me, I would allow 1911s and stoked SGs following SASS rules in a SASS match. Basically, CAS with a 1911 as an accomodation. Oh horror!

 

I like the idea of a dedicated WBAS match; but, I like this idea too. Another personal reason is that I have arthritis in my cocking thumb with SAAs. No problems with the 1911. Don't tell me I could learn to shoot with the other hand because I've already had that thumb joint removed. It isn't much of a stretch to allowing 1911s as a category. My point is that allowing 1911s in a CAS match with basically CAS rules might bring in more people or keep more people from quitting for physical reasons.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Well oops, I pressed Post instead of More Reply Options; but, you get my point. I hope.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS That was "just Allie" posting a personal opinion.

[Blackey Cole]

It's like playing football on a basketball court using ball rules there two different games, sports whatever you want to call them. It would be easier to shoot WBAS at an IPSec three gun match or other three gun except western three gun. Rear the rules think about the differences and you will come to the conclusion it's a different game played by different rules using different tools except for the rifle a nd thus still using a 97 but bet given time they will be fewer and few. Heck the price of a 97 has fallen back to its CAS days.

[Yul Lose]

It's like playing football on a basketball court using ball rules there two different games, sports whatever you want to call them. It would be easier to shoot WBAS at an IPSec three gun match or other three gun except western three gun. Rear the rules think about the differences and you will come to the conclusion it's a different game played by different rules using different tools except for the rifle a nd thus still using a 97 but bet given time they will be fewer and few. Heck the price of a 97 has fallen back to its CAS days.

I've seen plenty of WB shooters shoot our cowboy matches and they had no problem and neither did the TO. I've seen cowboys shoot the stage with their SAA's and then turn around and shoot the same stage WB and not a single person on the posse had a problem with it. Using basketball and football as an analogy is ridiculous,IMHO. I've never seen a safety issue when WB's shoot the cowboy stage. I've learned a lot from watching the Wb shooters and someday I might do it too. At The Cajon Cowboys matches I've been on a posse where four cowboys shot it WB also and the posse behind us never caught up with us, so I'm not sure it slows down a posse that much and when they shoot WB they use a different alias and they're not competing against cowboy shooters. I'm of the opinion and it may not be a popular one but what's the harm in mixing it up? If the TO's and counters are all briefed and know what's going on why not allow it?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

 

Not being a SASS member has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. Shame on you for suggesting it does.

 

WB rules are already codified. It's one thing for SASS to allow shooters who already compete under documented WB rules to take part in their matches -- which appears to be quite common in many places. It's quite another for an undefined group to take part. If SASS were to evaluate whether or not to allow an additional group in addition to WB, I would suggest the main part of their decision should indeed by based on history so long as there are no safety or technical issues.

Put up or SHUT-UP.

How many shoots either WB or SASS have you been a participant in? I say ZERO------

Your just 'stir'n' is all-----

LG