Who come Wild Bunchers can't shoot SASS matches when no WB matches are available?

[Kynoch]

Why doesn't SASS allow Wild Bunchers to compete in SASS matches as just another category or two? It's often difficult to find a WB match, but SASS matches on the other hand seem quite common around here.

Are there a technical reasons? Would a .45ACP round damage metal targets at the short distances used in SASS? If it is, could it be handled by setting a maximum power factor for the .45ACP round?

 

Is there concern about too much brass being flung by the M1911's? Lever/pumps rifles also fling brass although perhaps not a far or as much.

 

I sometimes compete in a totally different sort of handgun shooting -- Steel Challenge, and it welcomes just about eveyone (not single shot muzzleloaders) and tries to adopt the rules of the major governing body for a specific type of handgun. For example if someone shot a SC match with single action revovers, SASS rules would be applied to them.

 

Anyways, thanks for any input.

[Wallaby Jack, SASS #44062]

I think that you'll find that Wild Bunch is a side match

[Stoney Creek]

I can only speak for what we do in our part of the Great White North (we have had snow already) but we do include Wild Bunch as a category in many monthly CAS matchs.

 

At the Central Canadian Regional Championship we had 18 shoot the WB side match.

 

When you are trying to grow the game in an area with a relataively small population you have to use any means necessary.

 

California has a greater population than all of Canada. Just as Orange County has a greater population than New Mexico. So when I hear that a monthly WB match in Califonia can draw 70 shooters I say hoorah. .Wish we could up here but we don't have 70 WB shooters in the whole province.

 

There is no issue with target damage or lost brass if the targets are good and you are not shooting in ankle high grass.

 

A few yeas ago I was involved in a new range inspecion by the Chief Provincial Firearms Office.

 

All ranges are inspected every few years. The inspector asked us what we planned to shoot and was told Cowboy Action, Wild Bunch and Wild Bunch rules 3 Gun.

 

The CFO considers SASS the safest of all the action games but he asked about WB rules 3 Gun.

 

We told him to think WB but with modern guns. He said send him an overview and he would get back .

 

An e-mail was sent and the approval was received the next day.

 

This may be shocking to some of the"purests" but we sometimes run all in one matchs.

 

Cowboy, Wild Bunch and WB rules 3 Gun all on the same stages using the same scenarious with small changes for WB and 3 Gun.

 

Stoney

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

I think that you'll find that Wild Bunch is a side match

WB is spose to be a stand alone match........................totally different set of rules, ROs, target/stage arrangement and distances. Some folks just don't want to mix the two, which is the way it should be if that's the way they want it. Wild Bunch ain't SASS with a 1911................Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

[Anvil Al #59168]

WB is spose to be a stand alone match........................totally different set of rules, ROs, target/stage arrangement and distances. Some folks just don't want to mix the two, which is the way it should be if that's the way they want it. Wild Bunch ain't SASS with a 1911................Good Luck

 

Jefro Relax-Enjoy

 

 

+1

There are a few clubs around here that allow it. Can't say I really care for it.

 

It is it's own game. Should be played as it's own game.

 

You WBers need to just set up your own match. As pointed out above.

WB is not SASS with a 1911. Even thought they use a lot of the same guns.

It should be set up in a totally different way.

[Rolan Kraps, SASS # 24084 Life]

Because Wild Bunch is a separate sport. It would be like asking "why can't I shoot blanks at balloons in a Cowboy match?"

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

The set up for WB, as stated above, is different. Much more emphasis on the pistol (4-5 mag changes are normal) so that a WB posse shooting on a CASS stage is more a convenience to introduce the concept and generate some interest for a WB stand alone match. That was done at the Jackson club in NJ and now there is a stand alone WB match 4-5 times a season.

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

The Cowboys of Norco do honor the WB class at their monthly matches and the Cajon Cowboys in Devore have a class called "Pike" which uses the 1911 for both rifle and pistol targets along with a 97 sg that can't be loaded until on the clock.

 

Add in all the W3G matches and the other clubs around here that allow the use of 1911s and Ca shooters have plenty of options.

 

While maybe not the same perfect scenario as separate WB matches every weekend, 1911s CAN be incorporated into SASS matches given the right attitudes.

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

When 'incorporated', it is not that big a deal at SASS matches. If you are not paying attention you can even miss the fact that there is/are WB shooters doing their thing around you. I attended one SASS match, as a cowboy, that was not only supposedly WB friendly but shooters were encouraged to come shoot as WB. Seemed to me that WB friendly was pretty much SASS friendly at that match and we cowboys had the WB guys outnumbered at least five to one.

 

The problem, for several reasons WB is having and will continue to have many problems facing growth. Competition for time and space on the range is at a max level around these parts. Our club has held two three gun matches over the last two years and both limited out within the first day or two of being announced. Some years back we actually had a huge 'go to war' situation over the fact that we, the cowboys, overlooked scheduling the annual match by the prescribed time allotted (another story for another day). I also get the feeling that there has been a widespread lack of willingness by the average SASS shooter to add it to their regular shooting repertoire AND without a doubt I see SASS as the pool of shooters that WB hopes to pull from. What has probably surprised me most has been the lack of cooperation between the shooters and even the leaders of cowboy and wild bunch to work and play together to make WB grow to its potential. Cowboys cry that it is not pure enough to share match time with while WB fokes actually use the same argument, the other way round! I think WB needed to be nurtured more by SASS in hopes that it would be well positioned to fill any slots for range space and time. Grow it within the SASS match, as it hopefully becomes larger, then at some point give them their own posse from which to shoot in. Around here, at the present time, the only other step immediately available would be to share that space and time available with WB shooting OUR stages separately as an independent group. It would be a shame to see the baby wither and die because of unrealistic visions or expectations and an unwillingness to admit the need for intervention!

[Bad Hand]

I wonder which SASS member is posting this as a "guest" rather than his own alias?

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

I wonder which SASS member is posting this as a "guest" rather than his own alias?

Probably the one who's tired of getting bashed just because he's got a different viewpoint than some of the wire regulars who never shoot, but are experts on everything!

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Clearly some clubs allow shooters to shoot their matches with a WB category. Some allow shooters to enter two categories one being WB. Stages and steel are set for non WB shooters.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I wonder which SASS member is posting this as a "guest" rather than his own alias?

None that I can tell.

[Noz]

Wild Bunch is a parasitic group that feed off of SASS. If it is a valid sport, why don't they have their own clubs?

I will not shoot at a match that allows them to compete with the SASS shooters.

[Yul Lose]

I shoot at a few clubs that allow you to shoot WB right along with the rest of us and it works out well. Some as Beartrap mentioned allow you to shoot as a cowboy and change gear and shoot WB also. I don't know if I've got the stamina to shoot 12 stages in one day but it would sure be fun to try.

[Rio Brazos Kid]

What I see here in Texas is WB shooters shooting in CAS matches. They shoot the 1911's instead of SSA's, and their WB legal rifles, along with stoked 97's. They effectively shoot the same scenario's as the CAS shooters do. In the case of split pistols, the pistols are grounded between splits, and not holstered till the end of their run when they are shown clear.

 

This isn't true WB shooting BUT, I lets the WB shooter have some fun with the rest of us. There is no real conflicts, or safety concerns, and it doesn't effect shooter times or the smooth flow of the posse.

 

RBK

[Dubious Don #56333]

Wild Bunch is not CAS with 1911's, it is a bit different as to target size and distance, among other things. The rules are a little different and quite alien to an RO who has never shot WB. For example, WB does not allow one to holster the empty pistol, it must be staged at the end of the string. While this is a minor issue easily fixed, quite a few CAS stages do not have a place to do this.

 

One of the clubs I shoot with used to allow WB to compete and be scored within their category. One of the reasons they stopped doing this was it became increasingly difficult for WB shooters to be RO'd properly.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Wild Bunch is a parasitic group that feed off of SASS. If it is a valid sport, why don't they have their own clubs?

I will not shoot at a match that allows them to compete with the SASS shooters.

In my experience the clubs that have a Wild Bunch category do not score WB shooters in the overall match rankings and only score WB within their own ranks. So in effect they do not compete with SASS shooters.

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

The whole discussion of WB is always interesting. Many clubs had WB matches years before SASS decided to add that group to the ranks. The first SASS monthly match I ever attended had WB shooters in their own category among the other shooters and had been doing is for many years and still do. Some today allow WB shooters in a separate category and do not exactly follow SASS WB rules on guns or other in an attempt to attract more WB shooters to SASS. The idea being to allow them to get a taste for WB before they have the exact correct semi auto or other.

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

The question,

"Why doesn't SASS allow Wild Bunchers to compete in SASS matches as just another category or two? It's often difficult to find a WB match, but SASS matches on the other hand seem quite common around here."

 

Well SASS does have Wild Bunch matches.

The problem is understanding that SASS is the parent company of Wild Bunch and has it's own rules and matches separate from SASS cowboy Action matches.

These are two very different sports and they are run under their own rules.

 

Just because a match is called a SASS match does not mean it's both Cowboy Action Shooting and Wild Bunch run together.

This has been a courtesy since the beginning to help introduce Wild Bunch to Cowboy Action Shooters.

SASS Cowboy Action Shooting as well as Wild Bunch are stand alone sports.

Some people like yourself want both sports run at the same matches on the same days.

Some rather that the two sports be separate.

The 1800s cowboys not mixing with the 1900 military.

 

The issue is that after several years, Wild Bunch is not growing like cowboy action.

Wild Bunch is not drawing enough shooters in all areas to form their own clubs.

Therefore the Wild Bunch shooters are still depending on the cowboy action shooters to put on matches.

Provide the targets, props and the management of running a club and match that the Wild Bunch shooters can piggy back on to.

 

As a separate sport with separate rules, you're asking cowboy shooters to learn your rules so Wild Bunch shooters can compete within a cowboy match but not under cowboy rules but Wild Bunch rules.

If a cowboy club wants to do that, I think the Wild Bunch shooters should all be on their own posses with NO cowboy shooters.

Mixing two different sets of rules in one posse only invites errors in scoring and hard feeling when say a cowboy makes a wrong call due to not knowing Wild Bunch rules and/or Wild Bunch shooter making a wrong call on a cowboy shooter due to thinking Wild Bunch at the time instead of Cowboy Action.

 

Your question should be to the Wild Bunch shooters.

Can a Wild Bunch club or match be setup in your area?

That would depend on interest in the area.

 

SASS Wild Bunch Forum

[Dusty Boddems]

Wild Bunch is a parasitic group that feed off of SASS. If it is a valid sport, why don't they have their own clubs?

I will not shoot at a match that allows them to compete with the SASS shooters.

A parasite ! So that's what you consider me . A sass member since 1991. Well now that's hurtful and hateful. I bet you have never competed in the greatest gun sport----wild bunch action shooting and that is well ok BUT I have a news flash for you WBAS is a SASS approved shooting disapline.This is our own club! There is no reason for you to be insulting and act like your better than someone that has the nerve to like a slightly different game than the one you play. Loosen up , this is all just a fantasy game we play . There is plenty of room at the table for all. You can get your point across without being snobby and insulting or can you? Dusty Boddams 1907

[Bad Hand]

What I see here in Texas is WB shooters shooting in CAS matches. They shoot the 1911's instead of SSA's, and their WB legal rifles, along with stoked 97's. They effectively shoot the same scenario's as the CAS shooters do. In the case of split pistols, the pistols are grounded between splits, and not holstered till the end of their run when they are shown clear.

 

This isn't true WB shooting BUT, I lets the WB shooter have some fun with the rest of us. There is no real conflicts, or safety concerns, and it doesn't effect shooter times or the smooth flow of the posse.

 

RBK

A "stoked" '97 doesn't effect shooter times?

[Kid Rich]

The only WB match I have shot was in conjunction with a SASS warmup match(ME State Championship) and there were no problems in scoring. The WB was scores were separate from the CAS scores, even though we all shot on the same posse. Some of the shooters shot both. I didn't see any "parasitic" activity goin on there. kR

[Waimea]

In Orlando Cowboys shoot right along with Wild Bunchers and we seem to all get along just fine.

 

Last match they even had 6 SG targets. 3 and 3 SPLIT!

Didn't even hear a grumble from the guys that had doubles!

 

Sometimes there's more cowboys at the WB match than WB.

Nobody complains, we're shooting and having fun together.

 

 

Waimea

 

[Desert Pete SASS #42168]

Several years ago our club mixed WB and CAS. Peaceful coexistence but eventually the WB side came to CAS or drifted away. No one shoots WB now. Some of the WB folks seem to be shooting to the tactical three gun matches.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

The Cowboys of Norco do honor the WB class at their monthly matches and the Cajon Cowboys in Devore have a class called "Pike" which uses the 1911 for both rifle and pistol targets along with a 97 sg that can't be loaded until on the clock.

 

Add in all the W3G matches and the other clubs around here that allow the use of 1911s and Ca shooters have plenty of options.

 

While maybe not the same perfect scenario as separate WB matches every weekend, 1911s CAN be incorporated into SASS matches given the right attitudes.

The Cowboys only allow Wild bunch to shoot during our 4th of July extra match (not regular monthly) and even then they are not put in the overall standings. Other than that it is kept as a side match at annual events.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Wild Bunch is a parasitic group that feed off of SASS. If it is a valid sport, why don't they have their own clubs?

I will not shoot at a match that allows them to compete with the SASS shooters.

Yup-The 'cowboy way'-------NOT

 

I shoot at a few clubs that allow you to shoot WB right along with the rest of us and it works out well. Some as Beartrap mentioned allow you to shoot as a cowboy and change gear and shoot WB also. I don't know if I've got the stamina to shoot 12 stages in one day but it would sure be fun to try.

Yup-very common and don't see any issue.

 

OP-Our WB 1911 ammo is LEAD bullet only-NO, FMJ allowed in SASS/WB

LG

[Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life]

What I see here in Texas is WB shooters shooting in CAS matches. They shoot the 1911's instead of SSA's, and their WB legal rifles, along with stoked 97's. They effectively shoot the same scenario's as the CAS shooters do. In the case of split pistols, the pistols are grounded between splits, and not holstered till the end of their run when they are shown clear.

 

This isn't true WB shooting BUT, I lets the WB shooter have some fun with the rest of us. There is no real conflicts, or safety concerns, and it doesn't effect shooter times or the smooth flow of the posse.

 

RBK

 

RBK and I shoot at several of the same clubs. My observations duplicate his.

 

A "stoked" '97 doesn't effect shooter times?

 

Those clubs that allow WB shooters on a regular SASS posse generally don't have an "overall" winner. So the WB shooters are only competing against their own category.

 

 

Wild Bunch is not CAS with 1911's, it is a bit different as to target size and distance, among other things. The rules are a little different and quite alien to an RO who has never shot WB. For example, WB does not allow one to holster the empty pistol, it must be staged at the end of the string. While this is a minor issue easily fixed, quite a few CAS stages do not have a place to do this.

 

One of the clubs I shoot with used to allow WB to compete and be scored within their category. One of the reasons they stopped doing this was it became increasingly difficult for WB shooters to be RO'd properly.

 

The biggest problem I've seen of mixing WB shooters with SASS is that you MUST have an RO who is familiar with WB rules, as they are significantly different. A SASS RO cannot properly RO a WB shooter. Plus, the spotters will have trouble calling WB-specific safety issues on the WB shooter without WB training, so the RO, if WB-trained, has the complete responsibility for calling procedurals and safeties.

 

Laz

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

What I wanna know is which Wild bunch matches are we allowed to show up and shoot cowboy at?

[Anvil Al #59168]

What I wanna know is which Wild bunch matches are we allowed to show up and shoot cowboy at?

 

 

OH NO. We can't have any of that. It just would not be right.

 

 

What I find funny is I hear some of the same folks that want to allow WB in the Cowboy match.

Are some of the same one's that did not want to allow Blackhawks in Duelist or GFer because they

did not look cowboy enough.

 

But I guess that 1911 at the same match does.

 

Guess me shooting a Blackhawk GFer style is to distracting for there cowboy fantasy.

But someone running around with a 1911 and there military outfit fits in with it.

[Anvil Al #59168]

Sorry DT.

[Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388]

Probably the one who's tired of getting bashed just because he's got a different viewpoint than some of the wire regulars who never shoot, but are experts on everything!

Best answer so far.........LOL.........

[Houston CAS]

What I see here in Texas is WB shooters shooting in CAS matches. They shoot the 1911's instead of SSA's, and their WB legal rifles, along with stoked 97's. They effectively shoot the same scenario's as the CAS shooters do. In the case of split pistols, the pistols are grounded between splits, and not holstered till the end of their run when they are shown clear.

 

This isn't true WB shooting BUT, I lets the WB shooter have some fun with the rest of us. There is no real conflicts, or safety concerns, and it doesn't effect shooter times or the smooth flow of the posse.

 

Yeah that's how it's done at my club in Texas. It sure looks like "SASS with a 1911" to me. I've never seen any animosity toward WB shooters either.

[Doc Silverfinger, SASS#3444]

Here in New England, on the "Island-of-Rhode", all monthly CAS shoots have included WB as a category. As an aside, I've also attended regular CAS shoots at other clubs where "Plainsman" is shot along with the other categories - the only difference being the number of rifle shots per stage (5 or 6 instead of the customary 10).

FWIW,Doc

[Yul Lose]

At our Escondido Bandidos monthly match we occasionally have a couple of shooters shoot it WB and no one has a problem with it. No big deal, but when they have the occasional WB match on the fifth Sunday they don't allow CAS shooters. That doesn't seem right to me. When Pala has a WB match on the fifth Saturday CAS shooters are welcome to shoot it cowboy style.