dutch bear Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Howdy just saw a little clip of Matt Black shooting a stage on FB, shooting on the move( I have tried to find it on youtube so I could post a link, but couldn't) in the comments bellow the clip it says that after an hour long pose discussion they said he could as long as he had 1 foot planted for every shot, so he did yes you can move on a spent round, but as moving your feet takes a couple tenth's per leg and he is doing a rifle shot every 0.15 seconds I think we are getting in dark grey area's. don't get me wrong it is a joy to see him shoot, but when its legal for someone to take 5 steps during a max. 2.5sec rifle string because he says he is taking his steps "between" shots, how can a TO ever again call a "traveling with a loaded gun"? in a comment from Dylan he says "I had at least one foot planted for every shot", if that is the case I could walk during a firing string, when walking we always have 1 foot planted before moving the other otherwise its called running. Above is my opinion on the matter, I'm very curious on what everybody else thinks about this Dutch Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 it's a chance you take... too bad if you end up with a TO that says you did it wrong.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Once you CLOSE the action you can move only ONE foot. Did he move BOTH feet with the action closed and the hammer cocked? Did he shoot the stage per the stage instructions? Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 You can move as many steps as you want between shots as long as you don't chamber a live round. Once a round is chambered, one foot must remain in place. The easy fix is to not write stages where someone would be moving and shooting a pistol/rifle. With a shotgun it is a lot easier to determine foot position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Write the stage for a more specific shooting position, instead of 'anywhere between X and Y' make it 'from X shoot the rifle' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutch bear Posted September 6, 2014 Author Share Posted September 6, 2014 as my post says this is following a film clip on facebook, so I can only presume he shot the stage to description. I know what the rulebook says, my point is 1. as humans walk 1 foot is always planted so we can shoot wile we are walking al long as we are shooting faster than the movement of our feet? so if you shoot fast enough you could argue as Dylon does, that you always had 1 foot planted even do you were moving continuasly 2.I myself am capable of doing a rifle shot every .18 to .2 of a second (after the fist shot of course) and with this I consider myself a fair shooter, this means the gun is "loaded"(round in the chamber) for a max time of about .05sec per shot how could a TO ever judge if both feet were moving? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Your splits really don't matter. What matters is the condition of the action and whether you move BOTH feet while the hammer is cocked and the action is closed. I could shoot .5 splits as long as I didn't move both feet once I closed the action. Stan PS. .18 to .2 splits are well above fair with the rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Hi Dutch Bear, Was the video you saw of Matt shooting Western 3 Gun? I have seen that one on FB recently. One of their differences from CAS is that they may shoot on the move. Their primary rule about that is as follows. "A shooter must not move with a finger in the trigger guard while the hammer is cocked, unless he or she is actively aiming at or engaging a target." Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 And with the new definition of a closed action it only lates .03 sec for the action to be closed and the trigger pulled before the foot to move again. If you practice it you could perfect your timing but I would have a camera on me if I did it during a big match to show that both feet were planted when the shots were actually fired because otherwise you could end up with a penally. And then the stage has to permit it. And the stages at outlaw trail that allowed the shooter to choose where to shoot from said any one spot which still allowed the shooter to choose their shooting spot but only one where the first shot is fired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 More than likely he was slam firing the rifle much like someone would slam fire a 97. When slam firing the gun is only in the danger zone (closed action with cocked hammer over live round ) for a split second. It would be hard to move both feet in that fraction of time. It has been ruled ok for a 97 so it should be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 I predict a rule change on the horizon. I think the idea of slam firing a 97 on the move was barely palatable for many in this game. The rifle even less so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Hi Dutch Bear, Was the video you saw of Matt shooting Western 3 Gun? I have seen that one on FB recently. One of their differences from CAS is that they may shoot on the move. Their primary rule about that is as follows. "A shooter must not move with a finger in the trigger guard while the hammer is cocked, unless he or she is actively aiming at or engaging a target." Regards, Allie Mo Would love to see that allowed in CAS. Can you imagine the great stages that could be written and incorporated with movement if we did this. "Action" for real. MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dutch bear Posted September 6, 2014 Author Share Posted September 6, 2014 Hi Dutch Bear, Was the video you saw of Matt shooting Western 3 Gun? I have seen that one on FB recently. One of their differences from CAS is that they may shoot on the move. Their primary rule about that is as follows. "A shooter must not move with a finger in the trigger guard while the hammer is cocked, unless he or she is actively aiming at or engaging a target." Regards, Allie Mo I t doesn't say Sass or W3Gun, bud as they had the whole posse discuss this I assume it is Sass, in W3Gun this wouldn't be a discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Would love to see that allowed in CAS. Can you imagine the great stages that could be written and incorporated with movement if we did this. "Action" for real. MT X2, and start will loaded SG too. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Matt black is BORG--- He does come 'danger-close' to bust'n the vertical, when he clears the SG at the end....... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73obBJJv4h4 LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 I predict a rule change on the horizon. I think the idea of slam firing a 97 on the move was barely palatable for many in this game. The rifle even less so. Don't bet on that. An outspoken member of the WB doesn't like the concept, but, if the stage directions are written in such a way as to allow it, it is within the "basketball traveling" rule restrictions. http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=219854&hl=basketball#entry2837796 http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=224758&hl=basketball#entry2914265 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 LG , Ran that clip a few times and froze it on the shuck and I think he's got tons of room from the 170. 5 degrees from vertical ain't much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 In general, we get very contentious calls having to be made when timing between shots starts to become faster than the "average" spotter can reliably discriminate proper from improper timings, AND REMEMBER those violations, AND COUNT misses too. We probably do not want this game going to the point where it takes high-speed video replay to determine if someone is legal or not. We have this potential problem with both moving while shooting, and with gunfighters double firing. We can ignore this and as folks get more practice in, have contention for years. Or we can figure out what it takes to eliminate the parts of some stage designs that beg the fast shooters to overrun the ability to properly spot. Both are tough roads to travel. Both will have some pain. Or, we can eliminate the penalties with shooting while moving and double firing, which is where the fast shooters are pushing the sport. Probably better if we all make a good choice now about how to address these situations than have it decided by "match director decision at some major match where the match director was not even able to watch the action to get his own view of whether a violation occurred," and perhaps with different "protest" results at different matches, over the next few years. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Typical Wire... First, I wrote the stages. Second, it was a SASS match Third, I don't write BaaBaa stages...let the shooter be creative. Forth, it took about 120 seconds to educate the counters on the SASS RULES!!!!!!!! Never once did he move both feet with a live round chambered...Geeze...he ain't running fer gawds sake!!!! He's moving very slowly as he's shooting. Not everything needs to be redefined to meet YOUR idea of what's proper. I think I'm going to hibernate for another 6 or so weeks... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Simply write the stages with a SINGLE designated firing location for each firearm...(e.g. at any point between "A" & "B"...pick a spot) Otherwise, movement within the parameters of the rules is LEGAL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Typical Wire... First, I wrote the stages. Second, it was a SASS match Third, I don't write BaaBaa stages...let the shooter be creative. Forth, it took about 120 seconds to educate the counters on the SASS RULES!!!!!!!! Never once did he move both feet with a live round chambered...Geeze...he ain't running fer gawds sake!!!! He's moving very slowly as he's shooting. Not everything needs to be redefined to meet YOUR idea of what's proper. I think I'm going to hibernate for another 6 or so weeks... Phantom And this is how it should be. Or we could just rename the sport Cowboy Static Shooting and watch it die of old age... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 I watched him shoot at the Bayou Blast in 2012 and at the Western Regional at Chorro Valley this year. Imho walking and shooting would slow him down. I also watched Lead Dispencer demonstrate a Western 3 gun way of shooting on the go and that was interesting too. Not for me, but interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Perfectly legal. WOW. Some of you just keep at this boy. Need to get a life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Bull Tex Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 +100 Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 6, 2014 Share Posted September 6, 2014 Typical Wire... First, I wrote the stages. Second, it was a SASS match Third, I don't write BaaBaa stages...let the shooter be creative. Forth, it took about 120 seconds to educate the counters on the SASS RULES!!!!!!!! Never once did he move both feet with a live round chambered...Geeze...he ain't running fer gawds sake!!!! He's moving very slowly as he's shooting. Not everything needs to be redefined to meet YOUR idea of what's proper. I think I'm going to hibernate for another 6 or so weeks... Phantom I remember the stages you wrote for Cajon Cowboys. They were KISS, and fun! LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Hanger #3720LR Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 There was a time at SASS matches when there would be a shoot while moving stage or two every match. It sort of stopped because of all the nit picking the minimal rules to death. It's happening again. The result was so many more rules. Smokestack.....it's not Cowboy Static Shooting, it's called Cowboy Stand and Shoot. Boring! Phantom, I watched that moving video in questioned earlier today. It brought a tear to my eyes......I mean dust..... reminiscing of days gone by. One shot through each window of the train car. Buildings.....alley, window, door, window, alley. Repeat in opposite direction. I like your stage. Keep it up. CH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Thanks guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Know the discussion could not have lasted long. There posse finish about the same time ours did. I just watched the video in question. Perfectly legal. Come on folks. P.S. Would have liked a re-run at this stage today. I screwed it all up. And Phantom. Thanks for the fun stages. I really like that range. Wish it was not so far from me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Bull Tex Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Phantom,you going to put one in like that for State? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Is there a non-FB link for the vid in question? LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 Phantom,you going to put one in like that for State? Heyya Pit Bull! I don't see my style changing...let the shooter be creative. Don't mean I'm "right"...it's just my philosophy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 And with the new definition of a closed action it only lates .03 sec for the action to be closed and the trigger pulled before the foot to move again. If you practice it you could perfect your timing but I would have a camera on me if I did it during a big match to show that both feet were planted when the shots were actually fired because otherwise you could end up with a penally. And then the stage has to permit it. And the stages at outlaw trail that allowed the shooter to choose where to shoot from said any one spot which still allowed the shooter to choose their shooting spot but only one where the first shot is fired. The use of recorded audio, video, or still photography cannot be used to make or challenge the call of Posse or Match Officials. RO II page 13 The day that video is allowed for challenging a call is the day I'll stop taking video at matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I've seen the vid in question, movement was slow and deliberate and I see no indication that any rules were violated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pit Bull Tex Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 I am with you Phantom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your Nemesis Posted September 7, 2014 Share Posted September 7, 2014 LG , Ran that clip a few times and froze it on the shuck and I think he's got tons of room from the 170. 5 degrees from vertical ain't much. I agree, Stopped the video at the point of the shot gun shuck on the second set and he is a LONG way from the vertical, indicated by mr. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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