Shooter's glasses fall off while shooting?

[Most Wanted]

When a shooter has a squib we tell them to stop. They are free to ground that gun and continue or stop altogether and take the misses. That is a shooter equipment failure not anything like a dog running across the range. Also you noted it was not intentional. That means you judged intent. I'm not saying you were wrong or right as there seems to be people on both sides without a rule to reference.

[Church Key, SASS # 33713]

My reaction as TO; a bump to the shooter followed by a "Stop." TO interference; go to unloading table after safely stowing guns and getting glasses back on.

[Griff]

When a shooter has a squib we tell them to stop. They are free to ground that gun and continue or stop altogether and take the misses. That is a shooter equipment failure not anything like a dog running across the range. Also you noted it was not intentional. That means you judged intent. I'm not saying you were wrong or right as there seems to be people on both sides without a rule to reference.

Even this has its faults. I've both been the TO and Shooter in cases where I stopped/been stopped when a suspected squib was fired. When the TO sez Cease Fire, you stop. Period... if there was no squib, you get a restart. If there was a squib, it's the shooter's choice to ground that gun and continue the stage or take the remaining shots as misses. I've had a squib in my rifle on the 2nd round and no one caught it... I grounded the gun as I knew what had happened... and continued with pistols and shotgun... poor stage, but... It was finished safely. I've shot my .36 C&B and the TO thought I had a squib... stopped me... no squib, go to unloading table and and restart... as I hadn't finished.

 

All are safety issues... all have a different degree of difficulty in determining what happened and what should happen next.

 

It ain't a "cut-n-dried" situation. Seen a shooter who's pants fell down... he elected to continue... said he'd shoot from the fixed point and take the "P"...

 

I see no reason beyond tying the TOs hands in making it "cut-n-dried"... some leeway for circumstances needs to be in the TOs toolkit.

 

I'm a big proponent of allowing Jr shooter's the greatest leeway and opportunity to enjoy themselves... How often have we seen a Jr with glasses that are a "tad" too big... I'm surprised more don't fall off. Hmmm... "stop... yer done kid." Yeah, that'll add to their enjoyment! But, I've yet to meet a kid that WANTS some special treatment... so same rules need to be allowed for all.

 

I'm done.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

My reaction as TO; a bump to the shooter followed by a "Stop." TO interference; go to unloading table after safely stowing guns and getting glasses back on.

Please consider letting the shooter finish the stage then offer a reshoot. I have had TOs bump me plenty of times and not had any real impact on my ability to shoot the stage. Not everyone wants a reshoot.

[Blackey Cole]

Based on what I read one the first page I've made my mind up on how I would handle it.

 

Glasses come off to produce a safety concern

Cease fire for safety

Clear guns

Send to unloading table to finish clearing the firearms

Tell shooter to regroup and head for loading table

 

Shooter gets reshoot. If I was to see a pattern of this happening I would make a list of those that are asking for a sprit of the game penally.

 

That's how I'm gonna handle it until sass how says otherwise.

 

If needed I will quote page and chapter to support it,

[Anvil Al #59168]

Since I am the OP I'd like to request that we limit the discussion to what should happen after a cease fire is called due to this immediate safety concern. Trying to address the "if the shooter tries to take advantage of the situation" is chasing a rabbit that does not need chasing in this thread.

 

I really would appreciate an approach recommended by the ROC that would be fair and just to all concerned; keeping the safety of the shooter and all others as a primary directive.

 

PWB?

 

Kajun

 

 

In that case. I only see one and only one option. Restart.

[El Mulo Vaquero, SASS #55942]

If I lost my glasses while shooting, I would be BLIND! I would have to stop regardless, to find/correct them. I'm sure lots of folks safety/glasses are prescription!.

[Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118]

Funny, I had briefly looked at the topic a week or so ago but didn't really follow it.

 

Today shooting with the Yavapai Rangers this exact thing happened to a competitor. There was much discussion. (I was not running the timer). Someone wanted to give the shooter a safety, others weren't sure what the call was. The TO asked the shooter to pick up the glasses from the table in front of him but the shooter continued without his glasses. It was decided the correct call would have been "Cease Fire" and send the shooter to the unloading table and give him a restart.

 

TB

[Most Wanted]

Funny, I had briefly looked at the topic a week or so ago but didn't really follow it.

 

Today shooting with the Yavapai Rangers this exact thing happened to a competitor. There was much discussion. (I was not running the timer). Someone wanted to give the shooter a safety, others weren't sure what the call was. The TO asked the shooter to pick up the glasses from the table in front of him but the shooter continued without his glasses. It was decided the correct call would have been "Cease Fire" and send the shooter to the unloading table and give him a restart.

 

TB

Do you know what the final call was ?

I would also like to ask anyone that is in favor of a restart where do we draw the line . Do the TGs and the ROC have to come up with a list of shooter equipment failures that do and do not deserve a restart ? Then as part of the list will they have to decide how severe the failure is to allow for the restart ? Then will they also have to decide how many restarts one shooter can have ? Then will they have to supply an age and ability to apply new limit ? Or can we just say if ANY shooters equipment fails they have the choice to continue if possible to stay within the rules or stop and take any misses that apply .

 

 

P.S. Please don't take this as me trying to be a hard A$$ . I just think it opens the door for a whole lot of debate , hurt feelings etc. . I have always felt that if its mine I'm responsible for it . Thanks

[No Buk Chuck SASS # 24540]

I hope every TO would stop that shooter. I would think the Shooter would stop! I guess I think safety should be no.1.

[Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118]

The final call was no MSP, the shooter took the time from the stage after finishing it without his glasses. As posted previously, there was much discussion about how to handle this and it was decided the RO should have call a "Cease Fire" to the shooter, sent him to the unloading table, then back in line for a restart.

 

Palewolf, thanks for following up and the response from the ROC.

 

In the 13 years I have been shooting SASS this is the first time I can remember someone's glasses falling off while shooting a a stage. Very unusual.

 

TB

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Do you know what the final call was ?

I would also like to ask anyone that is in favor of a restart where do we draw the line . Do the TGs and the ROC have to come up with a list of shooter equipment failures that do and do not deserve a restart ? Then as part of the list will they have to decide how severe the failure is to allow for the restart ? Then will they also have to decide how many restarts one shooter can have ? Then will they have to supply an age and ability to apply new limit ? Or can we just say if ANY shooters equipment fails they have the choice to continue if possible to stay within the rules or stop and take any misses that apply .

 

 

P.S. Please don't take this as me trying to be a hard A$$ . I just think it opens the door for a whole lot of debate , hurt feelings etc. . I have always felt that if its mine I'm responsible for it . Thanks

Where do we draw the line??? Safety!!!

 

Cease Fire!!! Period!!!

 

why should there even be a discussion?

[Most Wanted]

CC , I agree 100% that safety is the priority . The question is who is responsible when shooter equipment fails . As I said on an earlier post if a shooter has a squib we would call for a stop and the shooter would assess the situation then make the decision how they wanted to finish the stage . If they chose to stop they would take the necessary misses . At least that's how I've seen it work . That is my main problem with this discussion . What shooter equipment failures warrant a restart and which don't . How bad a failure and so on . A shooter is having a train wreck stage and his hat falls in his eyes " cease fire and I'll give you a restart " etc. .

[Most Wanted]

That provision is NOT in the rules.

The only "carry over" penalty listed is for MSVs in event of a reshoot.

 

IMO...this would require an immediate judgement call on the part of the T/O regarding any "fortuitous" catastrophic failure of safety equipment (e.g. if the shooter was having a really BAD stage).

 

...otherwise, treat it the same as if the shooter came to the line without eye protection on & it wasn't noticed until s/he started shooting:

CEASE FIRE and RESTART

This was your answer to KK saying he would carry over any penalties on the restart .

 

 

Page 22 of RO1 says restart/reshoot would carry over safeties . Not sure if you are correcting "any penalties" or implying carry over only applys to reshoots and not restarts . I may be confused . Thanks

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Page 22 of RO1 says restart/reshoot would carry over safeties . Should I be looking somewhere else or am I confused . Thanks

what safety was incurred??? me thinks confused!

[Most Wanted]

From a discussion on page one of whether or not a safety would carry over on a restart . Did you want that answer or are you just busting my .........

More interested in what your answer would be to post 83 . Thanks

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hello Most Wanted,

 

This is a worthy discussion. We have a long-time method of handling squibs. This situation is similar. You don't keep shooting a single barrel gun with a squib. (I've seen a double with a squib on one barrel handled differently.) Nor would you keep shooting without glasses. That is not to say you cannot fix the problem and continue unless you are fishing for a restart due to a train wreck. I have heard that there is at least one shooter who is quite adept at getting reshoots and restarts for this very thing.

 

However, the final word comes out, a person like that should have set off alarms due to the repeated actions on bad stages. The PM or MD need to put a stop to it.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS PWB already said, the correct action is cease fire and restart. I've always thought restarts were fresh starts without penalties. Reshoots carry over MSVs.

[Most Wanted]

PS PWB already said, the correct action is cease fire and restart. I've always thought restarts were fresh starts without penalties. Reshoots carry over MSVs.

Allie , He stated that was his personal opinion and that he would run it by the ROC for consistency. He also said he would withdraw that request but you and others asked that he wouldn't. I have not seen the follow up and don't know that there will be one. As for the MSV being carried over on a reSTART that rule I cited from RO1 page 22 says they do. But there may be other wording I am unaware of thus my question. Thanks

[Joe LaFives #5481]

I find it interesting that several folks posted that they know individuals that would take advantage of this type of decision. It makes me sad.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Allie , He stated that was his personal opinion and that he would run it by the ROC for consistency. He also said he would withdraw that request but you and others asked that he wouldn't. I have not seen the follow up and don't know that there will be one. As for the MSV being carried over on a reSTART that rule I cited from RO1 page 22 says they do. But there may be other wording I am unaware of thus my question. Thanks

 

UPDATE:

Getting mixed opinions from the ROC at this point (from those who've responded)

Calling the question to get a majority consensus.

 

Regarding the carry over of penalties...as Most Wanted noted, the way the rule is written (i.e. "RESHOOTS/RESTARTS") any MSVs incurred would carry over...the misunderstanding on my part was that there is no MSV for failure of safety equipment;

but if the shooter had a P, misses and a MSV at the point that his glasses "fell off", only the MSV would carry over IF a restart is granted.

REF: RO1 pp. 22 & 24

[Most Wanted]

Thanks for the update. Glad to hear it's still on the table. Whatever the call is I appreciate the work involved in dealing with all the " what ifs".

[Blastmaster]

Hello Most Wanted,

 

This is a worthy discussion. We have a long-time method of handling squibs.

 

With current rules,,,If TO stops the shooter with a potential squib in a single barrel gun or glasses fall off, then that is considered interference (good thing), but if TO 'doesn't say BOO, and shooter stops and grounds gun on his/her own accord (potential squib with bullet in/not lodged in barrel), there is no interference, no reshooot, and Shooter has to eat whatever rounds that are left in the gun. I've seen that and has happened to me...TO not saying BOO and eating rounds not fired.

 

Ultimate responsibility is on Shooter!

 

This situation is similar. You don't keep shooting a single barrel gun with a squib. (I've seen a double with a squib on one barrel handled differently.) Nor would you keep shooting without glasses. That is not to say you cannot fix the problem and continue unless you are fishing for a restart due to a train wreck. I have heard that there is at least one shooter who is quite adept at getting reshoots and restarts for this very thing.

 

However, the final word comes out, a person like that should have set off alarms due to the repeated actions on bad stages. The PM or MD need to put a stop to it.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

From a discussion on page one of whether or not a safety would carry over on a restart . Did you want that answer or are you just busting my .........

More interested in what your answer would be to post 83 . Thanks

that was a long time to remember back,,, sorry,.... as stated MSV should carry over.

 

this is all really common sense, if an unsafe condition happens, ie glasses fall off or ear plugs ACCIDENTLY come out, cease fire....or stop...

 

from another post, if you think you have a squib and the TO remains quiet, VERBALLY declare it, it has been my determination with communication with a well versed higher up that then you would be covered the same as if the TO were to declare it.... because it has happened to me too and I didn't verbally declare it,

 

TOs should let the shooter know if a round clears the barrel and a very light load....

[Most Wanted]

I don't want to put any extra work on the volunteers than there is already. But as PWB pointed out this is about consistency. What you may think warrants a restart/reshoot may be different from mine. Doesn't mean you or I am wrong it's just an opinion. The more shoots are officiated by rules and less buy opinion the better the game will be. Well that's just my opinion.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I'll call for a cease fire for this every time, heck I remember many instances when I couldn't help someone from getting a P, I sure don't want someone's eyes on my conscience if I don't stop them, whether or not they want to stop...

[Most Wanted]

I agree I would tell shooter to stop. But now what happens is why I'm on this thread.

[Blastmaster]

that was a long time to remember back,,, sorry,.... as stated MSV should carry over.

 

this is all really common sense, if an unsafe condition happens, ie glasses fall off or ear plugs ACCIDENTLY come out, cease fire....or stop...

 

from another post, if you think you have a squib and the TO remains quiet, VERBALLY declare it, it has been my determination with communication with a well versed higher up that then you would be covered the same as if the TO were to declare it.... because it has happened to me too and I didn't verbally declare it,

 

Shooter declaring a squib and grounding their own firearm w/o TO input seem very reasonable to me. If upon later examination of firearm, the barrel is clear, then a reshoot, if stuck bullet, then shooter eats the rounds. (of course, that can be abused by someone that is having a train wreck as well) Same procedure as if TO was on top of the situation and stopped the Shooter. About the only Higher Up that has that weight is PWB or the MD. If it is the MD, then all you can do is protest an unfavorable call and take your chances.

 

 

Edit: I originally was thinking in terms of a possible reshoot if shooter grounded a potential squib rd in gun with rds still in it,, w/o direction from TO. If TO is quite and you VERBALLY declare it,,,,then that could/would mean a potential broken gun and you wouldn't be penalized for a possible cartridge (empty or loaded) on the carrier. You can do that w/o permission from TO,,, or at least what I have experienced.

 

TOs should let the shooter know if a round clears the barrel and a very light load....

 

'Should', and if he (TO) did, then we wouldn't have this secondary discussion.

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

Once upon a time in the west I shot the first two stages of a local match bare eyed. I had plumb forgot to put on me glasses and NO one noticed. It finally dawned on me. Scary. I was lucky that day, as ordinarily I am a splatter magnet. No one was surprised when I related my stupidity as they are all used to my stupidity. Question is, should there have been a penalty as eye protection is mandatory?

 

My earplugs have a string and they are always getting cattywhumpus with my stampede string. Sometimes the act of shooting a long gun will cause a plug to pop out and I will fix it on the clock. Meanwhile the clock continues adding up the already too long time. I would not expect any kind of restart or reshoot for this. Another question is : is there any penalty for shooting w/o ear protection. Because, if I recall the wording, while eye protection is required, ear protection is only strongly recommended. ?

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Once upon a time in the west I shot the first two stages of a local match bare eyed. I had plumb forgot to put on me glasses and NO one noticed. It finally dawned on me. Scary. I was lucky that day, as ordinarily I am a splatter magnet. No one was surprised when I related my stupidity as they are all used to my stupidity. Question is, should there have been a penalty as eye protection is mandatory?

 

My earplugs have a string and they are always getting cattywhumpus with my stampede string. Sometimes the act of shooting a long gun will cause a plug to pop out and I will fix it on the clock. Meanwhile the clock continues adding up the already too long time. I would not expect any kind of restart or reshoot for this. Another question is : is there any penalty for shooting w/o ear protection. Because, if I recall the wording, while eye protection is required, ear protection is only strongly recommended. ?

There is no in SASS for not wearing ear protection (Although recommended).

Some ranges/clubs REQUIRE the wearing of ear protection.

The TO is there to "safely assist" you through the stage. Let him/her do her job and make the call.

 

Ear damage is usually done over time as opposed to the instantaneous damage of a piece of lead or steel or stone in the eye.

[Cypress Sun]

There is no in SASS for not wearing ear protection (Although recommended).

Some ranges/clubs REQUIRE the wearing of ear protection.

The TO is there to "safely assist" you through the stage. Let him/her do her job and make the call.

 

Ear damage is usually done over time as opposed to the instantaneous damage of a piece of lead or steel or stone in the eye.

 

Agreed, ear plugs falling out.........I'm not stopping them. Glasses, on the other hand, are going to be an immediate CEASE FIRE or STOP. Safeties carry over on the restart. The only essential thing that can't be replaced on the human body is your eyesight.

 

CS

 

CS

[Lone Dog, SASS #20401]

There is no in SASS for not wearing ear protection (Although recommended).

Some ranges/clubs REQUIRE the wearing of ear protection.

The TO is there to "safely assist" you through the stage. Let him/her do her job and make the call.

 

Ear damage is usually done over time as opposed to the instantaneous damage of a piece of lead or steel or stone in the eye.

 

 

Pard your post is an excellent example of the epidemic of the "left out word". I'm sure you meant to say "there is no rule" and thot in your mind you did. You didn't. You left out the key word "rule" . Pretty important part of the sentence for the sentence to make sense. Proofreading is your friend. I see this more and more everywhere. People just leaving out an entire word. Sometimes, like when the word "not" is left out and that is one of the more common ones, it changes the meaning of the sentence 180 degrees to the exact opposite of what is intended.

 

I know all about hearing loss as I am quite deaf. I will always stop long enuff to re-insert a plug. Always.

[Most Wanted]

Never mind

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

hearing loss occurs instantly, and builds, and is not repairable!!! no you don't lose it all at once,,,, but if you all don't think tha's important, I'll shoot on another posse! and yes, I WILL stop a shooter in either of these situations!!! even iffn it wure one of yuze!

 

hearing loss is accumulative and not repairable, you may not mind using hearing aids, but I don't want to,nor will I be part of someone else needing them.

 

with that said, adios