Krazy Kajun Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 First off....this is a hypothetical...this has not happened at a match where I was running the time. I've not seen this discussed in the various WTC threads and was just wondering.... Say you are running the timer and while shooting the stage, at some point while shooting, the shooter's glasses fall off. What should you as the TO do as soon as you realize this has happened? Safety is always first and I would think that the TO would immediately call for a cease fire. All of the ranges that I have shot at have a mandatory rules that safety glasses are required at ALL TIMES. If you call for a cease fire what is the outcome for the shooter? 1. Does the shooter get a stage DQ? 2. Does the shooter get a reshoot? 3. Is the shooter awarded a safety violation that would carry forward if a reshoot is allowed? 4. If a reshoot is not allowed does the shooter get misses for all of the remaining shots after the cease fire is called? If the shooter had any misses and/or safety violations before the cease fire was called those would certainly be awarded. Kajun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Eyes are a precious thing. Loss of eyesight from an errant piece of lead is very possible. Call a halt Send shooter to unloading table and then to the loading table. Let him have a RESTART not a reshoot. A RESHOOT occurs only if the shooter finishes shooting the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 I would have them correct the situation safely on the clock and continue the stage. I don't think that failure of a shooter's equipment warrants a reshoot once a round has gone down range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackey Cole Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Well this is a tough one. Safety is first but there's no penally for this. If you halt the shooter you almost have to give a reshoot because there is no penally for not wearing glasses. But, it is unsafe to let it continue. It is the shooters responsibility for proper fitting safety equipment. I want to see what PWB has to say. It may be fix on the clock as that's the least of the options I see presented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Safety is all important. As previously mentioned, eyes are a rather precious commodity and are not replaceable. RO/TO should stop the stage immediately, take a handoff of the gun in use, have the shooter retrieve their glasses and continue. Then find out why the glasses came off in the first place and correct that problem. If the glasses won't stay on the shooters face, the shooter doesn't shoot. In all the time I've been playing this game I've never seen a shooter loose their glasses. Were it to happen, there would have to be a permanent fix. Like a nail thru the forehead. Wearing glasses that aren't secure would be ........ Dumb. Coffinmaker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 I would have them correct the situation safely on the clock and continue the stage. I don't think that failure of a shooter's equipment warrants a reshoot once a round has gone down range. I tend to go with this. if they are not broken and can be put back on. Seems the shooter kind of owns this. Otherwise. Someone having a bad stage can just kind of sort of knock them off thinking they can get a reshoot. Get them back on the shooter and keep going. Now if they feel off because they broke and will not stay on the shooter. That's a different story. Can not let them keep going without glasses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Think about this a bit more... The safety glasses FALL OFF. So now they are on the ground or a prop. We are not allowed to retrieve dropped ammo, the thinking being that we lose muzzle control. So how in tarnation are we going to allow a shooter to pick up glasses from the ground or a prop? I am not going to accept a loaded firearm from a shooter and then hand it back to him to continue the stage. Yes, I know you could safely accept an open empty shotgun, but it gets more dicey if its a half empty rifle or revolver. If the shooter restages a rifle with a live round on the carrier so he can pick up his glasses off the ground, he has just earned a MSV. So if I'm TO, I call a Cease Fire, make the firearms as safe as possible (hammer down on empty chamber if a revolver, lever the rifle empty) then have the shooter go to the unloading table for complete clearance. The decision to allow a restart or not is the Match Director's. I am not going to make it as a TO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 STOP!!!! make your firearms safe, retrieve glasses. Now, go to unloading table.... I will do this for earplugs also!!!! Now, if someone is having a bad stage and I feel they have intentionally pulled their plugs or somehow jettisoned their glasses, THEN I would tell them to correct the situation and then continue. And yes, In that situation a am judging intent, they can protest it if they want. eyes and ears are precious, don't be a hard a$$! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Shooter Handbook page 25 28. Hearing protection is highly recommended and eye protection is mandatory in and around theshooting areas. While small, period glasses look great, full protection, high impact glassesare strongly recommended. Such protection is recommended for everyone when in the rangearea, and eye protection is mandatory for spectators when within direct line of sight of steeltargets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 I would have them correct the situation safely on the clock and continue the stage. I don't think that failure of a shooter's equipment warrants a reshoot once a round has gone down range. I hate to write this; but I agree with Smokestack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted August 16, 2014 Share Posted August 16, 2014 Think about this a bit more... The safety glasses FALL OFF. So now they are on the ground or a prop. We are not allowed to retrieve dropped ammo, the thinking being that we lose muzzle control. So how in tarnation are we going to allow a shooter to pick up glasses from the ground or a prop? I am not going to accept a loaded firearm from a shooter and then hand it back to him to continue the stage. Yes, I know you could safely accept an open empty shotgun, but it gets more dicey if its a half empty rifle or revolver. If the shooter restages a rifle with a live round on the carrier so he can pick up his glasses off the ground, he has just earned a MSV. So if I'm TO, I call a Cease Fire, make the firearms as safe as possible (hammer down on empty chamber if a revolver, lever the rifle empty) then have the shooter go to the unloading table for complete clearance. The decision to allow a restart or not is the Match Director's. I am not going to make it as a TO. That's true. but as the TO. I am probably going to pick them up for them. And hand them back. Because I DO KNOW some that would take advantage of this getting a reshoot. It's a shame. But it would happen. I am a little torn. Know a stoppage would be the best thing. BUT. Can see shooters taking advantage of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Think about this a bit more... The safety glasses FALL OFF. So now they are on the ground or a prop. We are not allowed to retrieve dropped ammo, the thinking being that we lose muzzle control. So how in tarnation are we going to allow a shooter to pick up glasses from the ground or a prop? I am not going to accept a loaded firearm from a shooter and then hand it back to him to continue the stage. Yes, I know you could safely accept an open empty shotgun, but it gets more dicey if its a half empty rifle or revolver. If the shooter restages a rifle with a live round on the carrier so he can pick up his glasses off the ground, he has just earned a MSV. So if I'm TO, I call a Cease Fire, make the firearms as safe as possible (hammer down on empty chamber if a revolver, lever the rifle empty) then have the shooter go to the unloading table for complete clearance. The decision to allow a restart or not is the Match Director's. I am not going to make it as a TO. Hmmm... What rule are you following? Although, I understand your reasoning, <whisper mode on> I do not like that rule about dropped ammo <whisper mode off>, it doesn't mention anything but ammo. Allie PS PaleWolf??? PPS If it isn't in the ROI, we will not get consistent calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Hmmm... What rule are you following? Although, I understand your reasoning, <whisper mode on> I do not like that rule about dropped ammo <whisper mode off>, it doesn't mention anything but ammo. Allie PS PaleWolf??? PPS If it isn't in the ROI, we will not get consistent calls. I am not aware of any rule or procedure or situation in which a Timer Operator can assist the shooter with his equipment while the timer is running, or call a cease fire and then allow the shooter to continue the stage and record the resulting time for score. If there are such situations, please educate me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 I am not aware of any rule or procedure or situation in which a Timer Operator can assist the shooter with his equipment while the timer is running, or call a cease fire and then allow the shooter to continue the stage and record the resulting time for score. If there are such situations, please educate me. It is the primary responsibility of the TO to safely assist the shooter in completing the stage. It is OK to pick up their glasses for them. You can even help them to unjam a gun you just cant shoot for them or hand them ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 RO1, Additional Commands: “Cease Fire!” or “Stop!” If at any time an unsafe condition develops, the Timer Operator will immediately shout “Cease Fire!” or “Stop!” The shooter is to stop firing or moving immediately. Failure to heed this command is serious and may result in a Match Disqualification. (“Whoa!” sometimes works just as well!) Failure to wear safety glasses is an unsafe condition. After stopping, the guns are made safe, the shooter goes to the unloading table. Unfired rounds are counted as additional misses. The shooter can appeal to the Match Director. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 It is the primary responsibility of the TO to safely assist the shooter in completing the stage. It is OK to pick up their glasses for them. You can even help them to unjam a gun you just cant shoot for them or hand them ammo. Sorry, I disagree. If you are looking for dropped glasses then you are not watching the gun as a timer operator should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 I am naive enough that I will assume the glasses falling is an accident, no intent involved. I would stop him, send him to the unloading table and tell him to come back for a restart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 I am naive enough that I will assume the glasses falling is an accident, no intent involved. I would stop him, send him to the unloading table and tell him to come back for a restart. That would be my personal position. ...keeping in mind the potential for abuse (that's why I've got a LIST). Took this one to the ROC for a consensus...please stand by. (which means this will likely go to page 3 or 4 by the time I get back with an RO3-approved application of an unwritten NON-rule) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Are you people kidding me? A shooters glasses fall off - their SHOOTING glasses... You know those things that keep them from going blind if a piece of lead splashs back into their face. You call an immediate cease fire. At the moment the glasses came off the stage ceased being safe. Fumbling around on the ground attempting to retrieve them or encouraging a shooter with loaded guns in hand to be fumbling around trying to replace them is just asking for an accident or serious issue to occur. This is not a gun failure or an ammo failure - this is a safety issue PERIOD. And the safety of shooters and our participants is paramount - I don't care what level of match or event it is. BOD goes to the shooter. I will authorize a restart. Abuse my match in this manner - and I will simply ask you to leave. There is no place in our game for unsafe behaviors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 It is not a restart after the first round goes down range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 It is not a restart after the first round goes down range. It is if there is no recorded score when the "CEASE FIRE" is called. REF: RO1 p.31 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 noted, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 RO 1 page 31 just defines what restart means, RO 1 page 12 item 5 is where it says a shooter is given a restart if stopped with a cease fire command. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Been there, seen that, twice in almost 29 years. Stopped shooter, made guns safe... collect guns, glasses and head to the unloading table... Then the loading table to restart... (are we really going to argue... discuss semantics)? 1st time was an adult, both barrels went off, and when he went backwards, the glasses stayed in place... 2nd time was a junior... told the folks to find him better fitting glasses. In neither case did I assess a penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krazy Kajun Posted August 17, 2014 Author Share Posted August 17, 2014 I am the OP and my underlying reason for asking this is because I had my shooting glasses to fall down my nose just a bit while I was shooting my rifle at the AL state match last year. I was shooting FC and had some blow back from my rifle round to get into my right eye while I was shooting.....ended up with a burning cinder damaging the lens in my right eye. I recently had cataract surgery on both eyes and my right eye was in much worse shape than my left eye and the doctor said the burning cinder was most likely the cause of major portion of the lens problems in that eye. My glasses just slipped down my nose maybe half to three quarters of an inch and remained on my nose while shooting. I am now very focused on making sure my shooting glasses are firmly in place where they belong. While discussing with my doctor the cause of the lens damage he asked what would have happened if the glasses had fell completely off. I thought about it and really do not have a answer that I have seen in the rules to address this and had never heard the topic discussed during my RO classes or here on the Wire....so I decided to post the question. My first thought was that if I were running the timer for the shooter I would immediately call for a cease fire since there is definitely a safety hazard. It was the "what was supposed to happen next" that has me bumfuzzled. I'd be interested in what the ROC comes up with. Kajun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 KK, I have a scar from a hot piece of slag while hammer forging a horseshoe about a ¼" from the iris of my right eye... ...we're only issued 2, no reissues possible... so, yes... CEASE Fire! And damn the consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc McCoy, SASS #8381 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 If my glasses fall off while I'm shooting I'll stop shooting & fix it. I'll hope the TO intervenes, but will resume shooting only when I have glasses again. As the TO I know my instincts will kick in and I'll stop the shooter. My EMT instincts are older than my CAS instincts. I would expect to give the shooter a reshoot, but I see good logic to just resume shooting as it is was the shooters problem. It'd depend on circumstances to some degree, where they fall, did they just slip, did it appear to be intentional. I never thought of intended deglassing but I do know of them kind of pseudo-cowboys. Looking forward to the RO3! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 ACE and JEDI CREEKER, I agree with your reasoning and actions if such of a situation were to happen. Please TO's, when something of this nature occurs, please don't try to add to the shooters misery by disallowing a restart/reshoot, whatever you prefer to call it. Consider yourself the shooter and think about how you would prefer to be treated if you were the shooter who lost his eye protection during a stage run. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 "Cease Fire!" Re-start sounds appropriate to me. Am quite certain we ain't got anybody around here that would knock their glasses off on purpose. We've all had bad stages, but I ain't seen this abused yet, anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korupt Karl Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 That would be my personal position. ...keeping in mind the potential for abuse (that's why I've got a LIST). Took this one to the ROC for a consensus...please stand by. (which means this will likely go to page 3 or 4 by the time I get back with an RO3-approved application of an unwritten NON-rule) I agree....but would have any penalties incurred to carry; over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 Stop the shooter immediately. How many times have you been hit with splashback from another stage? Would not want shooter getting it in his eye continuing to shoot. This is a game folks, if it happens again, tell shooter to tape them in place or something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 After sleeping on it. Have to say I was wrong. Reshoot-restart would be the way to go. I was just thinking of a few people that WOULD do it on a bad stage to get to reshoot it. But in 9 years. Have never seen it happen. Hope this don't give them any ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 I agree....but would have any penalties incurred to carry; over. That provision is NOT in the rules. The only "carry over" penalty listed is for MSVs in event of a reshoot. IMO...this would require an immediate judgement call on the part of the T/O regarding any "fortuitous" catastrophic failure of safety equipment (e.g. if the shooter was having a really BAD stage). ...otherwise, treat it the same as if the shooter came to the line without eye protection on & it wasn't noticed until s/he started shooting: CEASE FIRE and RESTART Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 After sleeping on it. Have to say I was wrong. Reshoot-restart would be the way to go. I was just thinking of a few people that WOULD do it on a bad stage to get to reshoot it. Those are the ones on my LIST. But in 9 years. Have never seen it happen. Hope this don't give them any ideas. ...which is why we should give the T/O some leeway in "making the call" IF it happens. IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L Posted August 17, 2014 Share Posted August 17, 2014 not trying to highjack, just trying to learn: why would both scores be turned in when there is a reshoot? cheyenne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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