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Want to try the Black stuff, advise needed


Noah Cash

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Bout time I got with it and tried to burn up some black I got layin around, I have done the cartridge thing before and think I have a slight grasp of the slight compression and let er' rip. I'll use that method in the .45 Colt and the 45-70 Shiloh Sharps, but to shoot in plainsman or frontier ctdg I need to whip up some 12 ga. I am using 2 3/4 " AA Hulls, Grey wads loaded with 7/8 oz of #8 shot with a Win 209 cap to touch it off.

 

What would be a good starting load of black & or Substitute? The current batch of Sub I have is 3f and I have both 2f and 3f Holy Black. I have heard measuring in grains, and some other measured in CC's. Will be using a MEC 600 loader so I can go with a specific bushing, or I do have the adjustable charge bar if that would be a better choice.

 

Not lookin for a load that will tip me over, just one that will tip the knock - downs over and cloud up the shootin bay.

 

I know we can't post load data here but some PM's would be greatly appreciated. You guys and gals have the experience and knowledge I want to learn from. Thanks a bunch

 

KB

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Remember, don't use plastic shot cups. I load on a small handloader because I have always had a crazy fear of static and I am using fiber wads. I know we can't post exact load, but mine mimics a 20 gauge in 2f in normal loading. I'm sending a pm.

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Go real BP only.

I load 3F for all of my SASS stuff and also use it in .45-70 and .45-90 Sharps rifles.

Use DGL for bullet lube and Bore-Butter for gun lube.

Clean-up with Windex Multi-Surface w/vinegar.

BTW-I use a compression die and compress my 3F/.45-90 load about .400".

Good info here--

http://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.html

 

LG

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Plastic wads work great for BP shotshells and actually will help your pattern.

 

I use a set of Lee dipper measures and use equal volumes of Goex 2f or 3f and shot. I don't use the charging bar in my shotshell reloader.

 

Everything else loads just like normal.

 

Have fun and get ready to grin a whooooole bunch!

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Plastic wads work great for BP shotshells and actually will help your pattern.

 

I use a set of Lee dipper measures and use equal volumes of Goex 2f or 3f and shot. I don't use the charging bar in my shotshell reloader.

 

Everything else loads just like normal.

 

Have fun and get ready to grin a whooooole bunch!

This.

 

Invest $12 in a set of Lee Dippers. 2 cc is roughly 30 grains of powder, 3 cc is roughly 45 grains of powder, etc. I would not go below 2 cc, and more than 3 cc is wasting powder. Adjust the powder volume to get a good crimp.

 

Plastic wads work fine. Spray some Ballistol/water in the barrels and let them sit while you clean your other guns, then push the crud out with a paper towel wad.

 

777 and Pyrodex work fine too. Just clean your guns promptly with Pyrodex.

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See Black Powder & Substitutes For Dummies The lightest load shown there has taken down every SASS knockdown I've encountered since I started using it 10 years ago or so. Feel free to beat yourself to death with hot loads, but it isn't necessary for SASS.

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Plastic wads will work fine in the shotgun. All I use on my MEC Grabber.

 

+1. I started loading BP shells with fiber wads & had a helluva time with leading in the barrels. Switched to plastic wads & haven't looked back. Cleanup is easy, just cork the muzzles, fill the barrels with boiling water & let them set for about 10 minutes. All the plastic crap just pours out when you pull the corks.

 

Holler

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I use American Pioneer Powder APP and load it just like smokeless no need to fill case IAW with rep. I forget exact data right now but I use smokeless bullets and a Remington green plastic hull in my shotgun loads. Yes it does leave a plastic goo in the barrel but it shoots real well and easier to find than the fiber wads. I was sold on app because I can load it on my Dillon 550 with plastic hopper and my MEC 650 w/ bushing and 7/8 oz bar with plastic bottles holding the powder. It is not hydrostatic like the real stuff or other subs. It smokes a lot.

 

I did not just start my own charges I sat down at EOT one year with the rep and we talked. He told me app needed an air pocket/gap to burn completely. And it was ok to leave room between the bullet and powder. I run 3f in my ROAs, 38s, 38wcfs and 45s. I use 2f in my 38-55, 30-30 and 12ga.

 

I bought a case of each several years ago and still have plenty. Since I was medically sidelined for about two years and just starting back at CAS.

 

Ps. Read capt Baylors bp for dummies to learn more.

 

I retread your post and you have the real stuff already you want to burn up. Good luck with it again read Baylors article it has load data and other important info for CAS and bp.

 

Someone above gave you the link for Baylors. I tried the fiber wads when I first started with bp and the wad blew a hole in the center of my pattern I couldn't hit a thing it was the second smoke in the valley match iirc. I had to buy some shells for the rest of the match after the first day. I friend loaned me a few shells the first day that's why I knew it was the shells and not me with his shells I didn't miss.

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For shotguns use BP, overpowder card from Circle Fly or where ever ya can find em, plastic wad (cut base off to fit at the right height in the shell)and fill with shot. Crimp and yer good to go. Just about anything will clean the plastic out of the barrel. I use a very weak solution of Simple green probably 20-1 water to simple green. Wet the entire inside of your barrels, let it set while you clean one of your revolvers, then run a wet paper towel thru the barrel, followed by a dry one lube the barrels and you are done.

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Plastic wads work great for BP shotshells and actually will help your pattern.

 

I use a set of Lee dipper measures and use equal volumes of Goex 2f or 3f and shot. I don't use the charging bar in my shotshell reloader.

 

Everything else loads just like normal.

 

Have fun and get ready to grin a whooooole bunch!

 

I have been pondering switching to FC and have been inquiring with the BP experts in my club to gain a little of their wisdom. So far all are in 100% agreement about using the same dipper for both BP and shot. They also said to use a plastic wad.

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Hmm, never encountered a white tar with APP. Are you talking shotgun or cartridges? If cartridges, what bullet lube? I use 4-5 cases a year.

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I have been pondering switching to FC and have been inquiring with the BP experts in my club to gain a little of their wisdom. So far all are in 100% agreement about using the same dipper for both BP and shot. They also said to use a plastic wad.

If you asked me at my club that's the answer I'd give.

 

Shot APP for a couple of years and then switched to pyrodex and found it a lot easy to deal with in cleaning. APP seems to build up a white tar that is harder to clean, pyrodex was easy to find and worked better for me. Good luck

The residue from APP is white though I would not describe it as tar. It wipes off easily with any water-based cleaner. Pyrodex is easier to find and is not too hard to clean though you'd better get all the residue off or expect some rust. I shoot both these subs. The smoke from Pyrodex makes spotters gag like they were in a WWI poison gas attack. :(

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I use American Pioneer Powder APP and load it just like smokeless no need to fill case IAW with rep

 

I did not just start my own charges I sat down at EOT one year with the rep and we talked. He told me app needed an air pocket/gap to burn completely. And it was ok to leave room between the bullet and powder. I run 3f in my ROAs, 38s, 38wcfs and 45s. I use 2f in my 38-55, 30-30 and 12ga.

 

 

I was unaware of the "leaving a gap" I have always filled to the same specs as real BP

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I've gone as low as 30 grs of FFg and as high as 80. I've settled somewhere in the middle of that. Ounce of shot and plastic wad.

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I've gone as low as 30 grs of FFg and as high as 80. I've settled somewhere in the middle of that. Ounce of shot and plastic wad.

I started out with 65, 2 years went by, went to 50, couple more years, ended up at 35. Works with my 20" Baikal with 7/8 oz shot. I do try to aim . If I do, no trouble with kd's. (The 65 was great fun, sometimes both barrels at once, but I got old along the way :o:P )

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I use Amsoil mp to clean and lube my guns it lifts out anything not metal out of the metal then bonds with the metal. I spray guns down hen putting them away. I do use windex w/vinegar for the shotgun if I let set overnight or longer to soften the residue, also on my ROAs while shooting to prevent buildup singe it tends to evaporate.

 

I once forgot to clean my guns after shooting bp for a month, long day and was worn out then next day. Cartridges were app SG was pyrodex at that time. I put wine corks in the chamber end sprayed down liberly with windex let set while I cleaned rifle them clean shotgun receiver then barrels. No damage to any of the guns. SG had chromed lined barrels and took about twice the amount of effort than normal four patches each barrel then sprayed guns with mp put back in sack ups. No harm no foul. That thought me that mp works and prevented the corrosion. An ex world champion told me about the mp and sack up safety when I went to my first big match. He said he even had throw wet guns in the sack ups during a rain storm and didn't get to clean them for some time and had no rust that the mp impregnated in the sack ups was drawn to the metal and built a barrier between the water and the metal preventing rust.

 

App does leave a little white residue from time to time but it wipes off my guns with a dry rag, paper towel. I use a ultra sonic cleaner to clean my ROAs between matches everynow and then if I feel they are getting dirty. I got it at harbor freight for under $100. I use hot water and dish soap in it take the grip panels off, remove the cylinder and set both guns in it. Cycle three to four times rotating the frames so the end of the grips get their turn at least once.

 

I use bullets I get from pinto Annie or Pecos Clyde or cowboy bullets, standard pistol primers, no special lube for bullets other than what they come with or the np for the guns. Shotgun I use a 7/8 oz shot bar, Remington nitro/sts green wads then I found the bushing that gave me the correct factory look crimp and that's how much powder I use. They take down any kd and bust the flyers if I aim correctly got two this weekend out of three after not shooting a flying target in over two years and EOT was the only match I've shoot since the accident except for one attemp right after the accident.

 

The shells were loaded before the accident iirc I know I've not done any reloading in the past two years, that's why my 45s are the only smokeless rounds I have both colt and acp. The only 38-40 s I've found were aap rounds. I need to load some 38s bp and 38-40 smokeless for frontiersman and classic cowboy respectively. I also need 12 ga bp rounds for plainsman and frontiersman before outlaw trail In case I wish to shoot frontiersman instead of cc to cut firearms I need to carry in half.

 

Now back to APP. It has to be the perfect choice for newbies to use since it's so forgiving in loading and in cleaning. You treat it just like smokeless when reloading. No special precautions to worry about. Just no smoking and keep a open frame away. I fill the hooper with it on both my Dillon 550 and MEC 650 load as if it was smokeless powder except for amount.

 

So for me the only time I notice something different is when I shoot it, it smokes. Otherwise I treat it as smokeless powder. It does have one problem as of that chat with the rep. It soaks up moisture like a sponge so don't leave it in the hopper over nite Keep it in its plastic jar with the little white driers as much as possible. A good crimp should protect it in the cartridge or shotshell since I have had neither pose a problem after two years.

 

Read all of the caps dummies articles on bp. Iirc he had shooting bp cartridges for dummies, frontiersman for dummies and reloading bp for dummies. And if your new to CAS the CAS for dummies. Baylor not only writes this stuff he does his own tests and reports them good or bad. He spends hours doing those tests then more hours going threw the data and then hours more reporting it. One spring we were both parked in the same Rv park and shot together some both practice and matches. He knows this stuff well not to mention he's been shooting and testing for over ten years since I've met him personally about 2006.

 

As for load data. I started out doing full case cartridges, fiber wads in shot shells and using wads and or Greece on C&B guns. From talking with the capt and the rep from app. I have developed loads that work for me. An example is my 38 spc cases get about 3/4 full with a 125 smokeless bullet same for 38wcf except 190ish bullet. Shotgun gets a50ish bushing in a 7/8 ox bar with the Remington sts hull and 7/8 oz #8 shot, my ROAs get 15 grs bv iirc with a .457 round ball using Remington #9 caps on tresso nipples and it doesn't get much simpler than that. I use the dick dastardly tower of power to charge the cylinders. I have brass powder flasks with interchangeable spouts. I use a 15 gr spout normally 17 for ins and if they aren't calibrated and shooters are having trouble I might go up to 25grs. I pour the powder in the five chambers that have tresso nipple the Ruger nipple is left empty unless there's a pistol reload. Then I place five balls on the correct five chambers then seat the ball using the top reloading stand. Then the cylinder is put back in the frame. Next gun. At the loading table I use a tear drop cash capper to set the caps on the nipples the seat them firmly, to prevent the cap from not firing, using my frontiersman screwknife by red wing. If I pop caps prior to first stage of say they go bang just like cartridges. At the unloading table I pull the cylinder out, wipe both ends down with windex on a shop rag to remove any residue, wipe the hammer down also. Then place the cylinder on the stand with the five chambers charged. Etc,.

 

For shotshell since I'm using once fired sts hull preferred aa as second choice. I wipe them down with armor all wipes prior to putting them in my belt. I keep the wipes in a ziplock bag to save on space. One wipe will last all day if not all match iir to put it in the bag when done using if I don't it will last all day. I use a brash brush from Brownells to clean the chambers of the SxS and spray with mp every two or three stages the brush is every stage. Rifle I might spray with mp if it starts sticking. As said several times the guns get sprayed liberly when I put them a way they come out of the sack up cleaner than when they went in especially the bp guns.

 

I use to tear guns down before every big match state and above type. Then it went to once a year, now I tear them down for cleaning if I fell it needs it. Something not right with the gun. For smokeless the cleaning is the hose down with mp with storing them shotgun gets the brush still and a squirt or two every couple stages. Revolvers not ROAs nothing but the spray on retiring them, ROAs see above. Bp see above.

 

Let's see I explained how I prepare, clean and store my guns for both smokeless and bp sub using APP. I also gave generic loading of cartridges, shotshells and ROAs. I explained where my starting info came from capt Baylor, and my modification of loads the app rep. I know this was quite long but I wanted to give you my thoughts on shooting bp, and then let you know how I go about loading cartridges, shotshells, and my ROAs. I let you know my basic cleaning regiment for bp vs smokeless just a little more with bp between matches. Also one thing I overlooked was I wipe the chambers out with papertowel or patch om a mop sized for caliber first thing in the am to wipe out moisture and lube in the chambers before firing the caps. That help them dry out and like I said APP is like a sponge were moisture is concerned. I gave you or should say seconded a excellent source for newbies getting into CAS, WBAS, and bp shooting. I hope this gives you enough info to safely start loading and shooting bp and subs especially APP. Welcome to the dark side. Don't be afraid when you grab a rifle and burn your hand a little from the extra heat that bp puts out. If you shoot a Henry 1860 wear a glove on none trigger hand.

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I use real black in either 1F or 2F. Often it's the cheaper brands like Skirmish or Diamondback for the shotgun.

Claybuster pink or grey wads. To clean out the wad material I cork the muzzle, fill the barrel with water & Ballistol and let it soak while I clean the other three guns. Then it all pushes right out with a paper towel wad.

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Thanks for all the replys and for the P/M's as well. Am readin and learning from them all, what ot do and not to do. Especially the info provided and likned to by Capt Baylor. Great info and a wealth of knowledge from all.

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I'm not in your area or I would let you come over and show you so if you get in my area or a same shoot look me up and we will chat. If you want to try it buy loaded ammo first to see if you really like it. Then start with cartridge bp category before moving to the C&B events categories. C&B is a lot of work during a match to charge them that why I reserve them to really large events with full posses of 20 plus shooters. That the only way to have enough shooters to work while your charging the C&B guns then if your slow like me there usually a jump in line at the loading table while your fumbling with caps. Also, develop a system when charging and at loading table so when your interrupted you know where you were so you don't gorged to lad, charge, cap a gun. It has happened to all of us. At the loading table I prep my SG first since it isn't loaded, the the rifle rounds are counted out on the table then counted as I load it, the the revolvers are loaded or capped. Then I start going over the stage in my head until I'm called to the line. I've went to the line without loading the rifle at one EOT. I was hurting and got distracted at the loading table and forgot to load the rifle. I've seen shooters draw a revolver shoot it put it away shoot another gun and pull the same gun and think they missed loading it until they got to the unloading table to find a loaded revolver. But a good system is required when reloading or charging a gun. This is to prevent mistakes from occurring

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