police

[Red Logan #12252]

Its gettin more like citizens are more afraid of the police in military dress than the bad guys, eh flame away, eh

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

No flame, just haven't seen any police in military dress. Is that a local custom?

 

Lafitte

[Utah Bob #35998]

I could go on about the Rise of the Warrior Cop phenomena that has occurred over the past 25 years or so but it would be a protracted discussion and probably lead to heated, acrimonious posts on both sides of the discussion. Suffice it to say that as a retired law dawg I argued against the over equipping trend of many departments. Even with the threat these days of terrorist acts, both from abroad and home grown, I believe that the black clad robocop look is not particularly useful or beneficial to law enforcement. One of Robert Peels 9 Principles of Policing states : “The degree of co-operation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force”

While dressing up like a ninja commando is not actually using physical force, it is the impression it makes on the public that is the problem. And when the force used seems out of proportion to the incident, it becomes a problem for the image of the police officer as a public servant.

 

While I maintain that 95% of police are the good guys not a threat to the republic, this militarization trend should be dialed back and evaluated by departments nationwide.

 

Another of Peel's principles is, “The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions.”

Police administrators would be well served to pay close attention to that one. Just because Peel wrote them in 1829 when he formed the London Metropolitan Police does not mean they are not valid today.

That's all I have to say on the subject.

[Tascosa, SASS# 24838]

I tend to agree somewhat with what UB said.. But in my humble opinion any citizen thats more afraid of the police, regardless of what they are wearing, has probably got a guilty conscience.

Tascosa

[Boon Doggle]

Well said, Bob.

[Sparky Nelson]

I tend to agree somewhat with what UB said.. But in my humble opinion any citizen thats more afraid of the police, regardless of what they are wearing, has probably got a guilty conscience.

 

Perhaps. But a person can have a guilty conscience without actually being guilty. Have you ever been driving along in a line of traffic and had the front driver suddenly brake because they saw a police cruiser? Even when they weren't speeding?

 

The law is too complex for most people to understand today. It's easy for someone to believe he may have broken a law without realizing it, and that's going to contribute to the feeling of intimidation when dealing with the police.

 

To support Utah Bob's point, I understand the need for law enforcement to have SWAT capabilities for facing well equipped criminal organizations (drug cartel operations and terrorists), but as Dad used to say, "to a six year old with a hammer, everything looks like a nail." Using the same team that took down a smuggling operation last week to serve a search warrant on a suburban residence this week is probably overkill.

[John E. Law]

On the other hand we as a nation are one of the only countries that continue keeping our law enforcement in archaic belts and gear. That's mainly because of public of public image more than officer safety and comfort.

 

The "classic" LEO duty belt has caused a large majority of officers to have hip, leg, and back issues well before and after retirement. The European countries went to tac vests and drop holster back in the early 90's. The tac vest accomplishes 2 things: 1) it not only takes all of that weight off of the hips and distributes it over the torso, but also makes their gear more accessible to the officer and 2) it is also the ballistic vest which is way more comfortable than the under uniform vest and gets more officers to wear theirs.

 

This IS NOT a SWAT uniform. The uniforms are cotton BDU pants and a cotton polo shirt and usually a baseball type hat. They are not the normal polyester uniform most patrol are issued. The baseball cap is a useful piece of clothing, lightweight and keeps the sun off your head. Unlike the stupid cabbie hats a lot of agencies require their officers to wear. The uniforms are much cooler and comfortable to wear in the summer while providing more protection and less weight. They do not have the upper neck, shoulder, arm and lower pelvic protection the SWAT uniform has, nor the helmet and goggles, nor the BDU military appearance.

 

Uniforms are changing with every type of job, be it fashion, safety, or practicability. This uniform change in law enforcement is just that. It is about practicality and comfort for the officer. It has nothing to do with intimidation of the public, the criminal nor the honest citizen, but the conspiracy theorists, paranoid, and person(s) stuck in the past will alway think that.

 

JEL

[DocWard]

There has been some discussion on the issue of the "militarization" of the police in the past few issues of American Handgunner magazine, with Massad Ayoob writing an article recently essentially defending LEO and the acquisition of MRAPs and the like by departments. There were a flurry of responses in the most recent issue I picked up, overwhelmingly negative. Many by LEO.

 

I agree with John E. Law, to an extent. LEO duty uniforms need to be practical. Given the tools of the trade, a certain amount of discomfort is going to be necessary for those wearing a badge, and anything within reason that can be done to alleviate that discomfort should be done, while retaining the professional demeanor necessary. However, there isn't a real place for all-black military style uniforms, etc... particularly if the intent is to police through intimidation.

 

We are, it seems, moving more and more in the direction of no-knock warrant entries, where the goal is to gain and maintain a tactical advantage. Often when there are numerous other alternatives which would be safer for all involved. I haven't been happy in reading about innocent people being treated roughly in order to maintain control, family pets being killed during unnecessary raids and the like. When infants are being severely injured due to flash-bangs though, I do more than simply question whether we have gone too far. I have friends in law enforcement, and I have yet to personally hear them refer to non-police as "civilians" or an "us vs. them mentality" among them, but I know it exists among some elsewhere. Frankly, that scares me.

 

Things seem to be moving the wrong direction all over. I hope the pendulum starts moving the other way sooner, rather than later.

[Sparky Nelson]

I agree with John E. Law, to an extent. LEO duty uniforms need to be practical. Given the tools of the trade, a certain amount of discomfort is going to be necessary for those wearing a badge, and anything within reason that can be done to alleviate that discomfort should be done, while retaining the professional demeanor necessary. However, there isn't a real place for all-black military style uniforms, etc... particularly if the intent is to police through intimidation.

 

Agreed. Practical and comfortable uniforms are fine. The gear that bicycle patrol officers wear look like a good start. Ball caps, polos, shorts or utility pants are good. But I think sending someone dressed like this to take an illegal immigrant child into custody is excessive:

 

[Cypress Sun]

 

Agreed. Practical and comfortable uniforms are fine. The gear that bicycle patrol officers wear look like a good start. Ball caps, polos, shorts or utility pants are good. But I think sending someone dressed like this to take an illegal immigrant child into custody is excessive:

 

 

Nice 14 year old photo. Anyone remember what cell phones looked like 14 years ago.........let alone capabiltiy.

 

Sometimes the tactical response is needed, sometimes it's overkill by a long way. I read recently that this year alone has been the deadlest year for cops ever.........just like you, they want to go home to their loved ones.

 

Don't know where the "happy" middle ground lays but JEL has at least one thing right......the cabbie hats are stupid.

 

CS

[Sparky Nelson]

Nice 14 year old photo. Anyone remember what cell phones looked like 14 years ago.........let alone capabiltiy.

 

Sometimes the tactical response is needed, sometimes it's overkill by a long way. I read recently that this year alone has been the deadlest year for cops ever.........just like you, they want to go home to their loved ones.

 

Don't know where the "happy" middle ground lays but JEL has at least one thing right......the cabbie hats are stupid.

 

Okay, yes, it's an old photo. And it was also just one incident, out of however many thousand warrants were served that year. But it's one that made the news. It's the one people remember.

 

I don't begrudge any law officer the tools he needs to do his job as safely as he can. But sometimes it seems like "convenience" looks too much like "necessity," and someone gets hurt that didn't have to. You're right though, it's a fine line to walk and we're not all going to agree on where the line is.

 

I still have my cell phone from 14 years ago. It made voice calls, sent & received text messages, and it has a flashlight built into it. I'd still use it except the cellular networks around here all went to CDMA and it's no longer compatible.

[Cypress Sun]

 

Okay, yes, it's an old photo. And it was also just one incident, out of however many thousand warrants were served that year. But it's one that made the news. It's the one people remember.

 

I don't begrudge any law officer the tools he needs to do his job as safely as he can. But sometimes it seems like "convenience" looks too much like "necessity," and someone gets hurt that didn't have to. You're right though, it's a fine line to walk and we're not all going to agree on where the line is.

 

I still have my cell phone from 14 years ago. It made voice calls, sent & received text messages, and it has a flashlight built into it. I'd still use it except the cellular networks around here all went to CDMA and it's no longer compatible.

 

One thing to remember about that photo. Those were Federal agents serving a warrant in a VERY hostile situation. One thing to notice is that the agents finger is not in the trigger guard. Although some inside the house were pepper sprayed, no one suffered lasting injury.

 

On the other hand, it was in Miami. If I could carry a sub-machine gun..........I would.

 

For the record, I carry a "flip" phone..........doesn't have a flashlight though....darn it.

 

CS

[John E. Law]

 

Okay, yes, it's an old photo. And it was also just one incident, out of however many thousand warrants were served that year. But it's one that made the news. It's the one people remember.

 

I don't begrudge any law officer the tools he needs to do his job as safely as he can. But sometimes it seems like "convenience" looks too much like "necessity," and someone gets hurt that didn't have to. You're right though, it's a fine line to walk and we're not all going to agree on where the line is..

Your quote is the EXACT problem. The public hears less than 2% of what law enforcement does. Of that 2% reported in the news 99% of that is negative and a majority of the time taken out of context and blown up just for the purpose to stir people up and "sell" the story.

 

And you said 1000s of warrants served every year?? I hope that was just an arbitrary number. When I was a warrants detective I was serving twice that in just arrest warrants in 6 months. That was ME, by myself. As a nation? Id hate to imagine. I was shot at 4 times in 5 years in that assignment. One was a VOP on a domestic battery charge (he didn't attend his court ordered classes), two to theirs were on driving while license suspended warrants, and the last was a woman who repeatedly refused to show up for court on a harassing phone calls charge, a 2nd degree misdemeanor. It was also her 1st criminal offense, ever. My point? You never know what your going to get no matter how minor the charge. I'm not even talking about my 10yrs on SWAT where we served the real dangerous warrants. So you may not "begrudge them convenience but it looks to much like necessity". We'll you never know when it's a necessity until You least expect you'll need it to be.

 

Lastly, the pic you posted, that's a SWAT type operative, not regular patrol. I know of zero agencies that are clothing all of their patrol officers in such a manner. Your taking news material and twisting it.

 

Disclaimer: I mean no offense to you personally by my post.

 

JEL

[Sparky Nelson]

No offense taken, sir. I'm always glad to learn something new.

 

Yes, I pulled the thousands number as a very rough estimate. I was sure it was more than hundreds per year except in the smallest jurisdictions, but I didn't know if it numbered in the millions nationwide.

[Noz]

 

One thing to remember about that photo. Those were Federal agents serving a warrant in a VERY hostile situation. One thing to notice is that the agents finger is not in the trigger guard. Although some inside the house were pepper sprayed, no one suffered lasting injury.

 

On the other hand, it was in Miami. If I could carry a sub-machine gun..........I would.

 

For the record, I carry a "flip" phone..........doesn't have a flashlight though....darn it.

 

CS

Unless they were an immediate threat, that is excessive force. I'm sure the next time they see a cop or every time they see a cop they will remember the pepper spray.

[Tell Sackett SASS 18436]

Tascosa- I fear the police, and I do NOT have a guilty conscience. The police are out of control, and EVERYONE should fear them.

[ORNERY OAF]

Tascosa- I fear the police, and I do NOT have a guilty conscience. The police are out of control, and EVERYONE should fear them.

That is one of the dumbest lines i have ever heard on the wire....and thats saying a lot! You probably shoot with several cops, as many shoot SASS...do you fear them?....wow

[Elk Creek LeMieux]

If it might rain, I bring a rain jacket, I don't wear it.

 

Nothing but respect for LEO's...

 

But when I see an LEO wearing more equipment than a dude in a war zone, it makes me wonder what the goal of that PD/LEO really is. Especially in light of the fact that there is a definite psychological edge against a target when you're all kitted up.

 

Peace by intimidation?

[Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme]

FT,

 

I got to agree. It's there so they use it or carry it, just because. The PDa have fallen for that magnificent (?) term "tactical" from all their vendors. Everything needs to be tactical, down to their shoelaces. And, the tactics the manufacturers follow, are those of the US military fighting largely police actions, all over the world. So, it flows downhill. But as UB so eloquently quoted form Peel above........ tactics are not what web type belt you wear, what the web belt holds, or what's in you holster...... real tactics are between the ears.

[Boon Doggle]

If it might rain, I bring a rain jacket, I don't wear it.

 

Nothing but respect for LEO's...

 

But when I see an LEO wearing more equipment than a dude in a war zone, it makes me wonder what the goal of that PD/LEO really is. Especially in light of the fact that there is a definite psychological edge against a target when you're all kitted up.

 

Peace by intimidation?

 

Ya think?

 

I guess if I was a LEO, I would use any available tool I had to end a dangerous or, perceived dangerous situation to a close. And damn public perception.

[Elk Creek LeMieux]

FT,

 

I got to agree. It's there so they use it or carry it, just because. The PDa have fallen for that magnificent (?) term "tactical" from all their vendors. Everything needs to be tactical, down to their shoelaces. And, the tactics the manufacturers follow, are those of the US military fighting largely police actions, all over the world. So, it flows downhill. But as UB so eloquently quoted form Peel above........ tactics are not what web type belt you wear, what the web belt holds, or what's in you holster...... real tactics are between the ears.

 

I hate that word... "Tactical..." It no longer has a thing to do with tactics.

 

Someone never heard Mr. Murphy's laws of combat. "Don't be conspicuous. It draws attention. This is why aircraft carriers are called bomb magnets."

 

 

Ya think?

 

I guess if I was a LEO, I would use any available tool I had to end a dangerous or, perceived dangerous situation to a close. And damn public perception.

 

I guess the thing that bothers me, is that even the military understands that you can't win a war against an insurgency without winning the hearts and minds of the people in the area. And, that you can't win hearts and minds with intimidation tactics.

 

And as UB quoted, PD's need the support of the local population to do their jobs.

 

So... are all these PD's actually telling us they don't give a d__n what we think?

 

Or has the chief just given one to many motivation speeches, and now he's drinking his own koolaid? A whole lot of people have died to "keep it the hell over there."

 

I am not happy about the militarization of some of these PD's. To me they look like a new unit in a combat zone, just itching for a fight.

[Subdeacon Joe]

An armed government agent is an armed government agent. "Oh, but local LEOs are different than BATF or IRS!." Yeah, we see the local cops more. And the Highway Patrol, but all have the the power of the State (State being a term of art for government at any level) behind them.

 

A no-knock raid at the wrong address by people in full tactical gear and carrying what can't be told from full auto weapons is going to be no less terrorizing to those subjected to the raid if done by local cops than if it were done by the BATFE.

 

Like it or not, what the uniform looks like has a huge impact on how the public perceives the officer. These aren't police - yeah, I get that - for illustration only to make my point:

 

You see Marines dressed like that and you know that everything is just fine, maybe better than just fine.

 

Normal day. Still gives the feeling that everything is going along fine.

 

Can of Whoop-a&& has been shook and is just waiting for someone to open it. Someones in for a world of hurt.

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I like the word 'tactical' on the side of my AR though

 

 

'Tactical' is the hype word of the time like 'turbo' was in the 80's LOL!

 

GG

[DocWard]

 

Ya think?

 

I guess if I was a LEO, I would use any available tool I had to end a dangerous or, perceived dangerous situation to a close. And damn public perception.

 

I'll just leave this here:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/30/us/georgia-toddler-injured-stun-grenade-drug-raid/

[Elk Creek LeMieux]

I hesitated to post this picture... I was actually looking for something else, but I can't find it, and this one makes my point.

 

Nothing but love for LEO's, and this thread is starting to take an ugly turn.

 

But there is something seriously wrong with PD's wearing more kit in America, than America's best wear overseas.

 

[J-BAR #18287]

If the two policemen outside the coffee shop were responding to a reported terrorist threat, then their dress is appropriate. I think it would be a bit much for routine walking a beat. Bottom line is I want all four of those guys going home to their families when their duty is done. If the equipment helps, that's ok with me.

 

The individual policeman's demeanor is much more important to me than the gear he or she is wearing.

[Seldom Seen #16162]

I would like to comment but I have warned by the Moderators about my negative attitude and posts. I just say if I were to comment I would say Utah Bob offers a excellent assessment.

[Subdeacon Joe]

If the two policemen outside the coffee shop were responding to a reported terrorist threat, then their dress is appropriate. I think it would be a bit much for routine walking a beat. Bottom line is I want all four of those guys going home to their families when their duty is done. If the equipment helps, that's ok with me.

 

Split the difference:

 

 

And remember we are talking about how the public perceives the police, not the technical realities. The above photo is from Placerville, CA http://www.mtdemocrat.com/news/ppd-uniform-gets-change/

 

That gear, to me, says "DO NOT COME NEAR ME!" and creates even more of an us/them feeling. Even with the casual stance and hands in the pockets.

 

I don't care who it is, but you strap armor and other gear onto someone and the attitude and mindset change some. And how they are perceived by others changes. Perception matters, and that is what the original post of this thread is saying.

[Subdeacon Joe]

 

I would like to comment but I have warned by the Moderators about my negative attitude and posts. I just say if I were to comment I would say Utah Bob offers a excellent assessment.

 

 

That he does. And, although more subtle and nuanced, as is his habit, supports the original post.

[Tascosa, SASS# 24838]

Tascosa- I fear the police, and I do NOT have a guilty conscience. The police are out of control, and EVERYONE should fear them.

Facts Tell Sackett, facts. Sure there may be a few bad cops, like a few bad Dr.s and a few bad teachers, after 28 yrs in LE most LEO's are just trying to do their job the best they know how. Are you specifically refering to the Houston police? I live in Amarillo and most people will wave at a cop in his patrol car or talk to them in toot and totem. Care to explain how the "police are out of control"?

Have y''all had a bad experience with the police? Not trying to disparrage what you think, Im juset curious

Tascosa

PS. Tell I like your handle!

[Subdeacon Joe]

Facts Tell Sackett, facts. Sure there may be a few bad cops, like a few bad Dr.s and a few bad teachers, after 28 yrs in LE most LEO's are just trying to do their job the best they know how. Are you specifically refering to the Houston police? I live in Amarillo and most people will wave at a cop in his patrol car or talk to them in toot and totem. Care to explain how the "police are out of control"?

Have y''all had a bad experience with the police? Not trying to disparrage what you think, Im juset curious

Tascosa

PS. Tell I like your handle!

 

 

Change the word "police" to "BATFE agent." Or "IRS agent" Would you be saying the same thing?

[Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L]

I have no issue with the 'military' look and equipment the police use with their outfits and training. It's most likely because of what we have become as a society and the terroristic essence we face. I also want the officers to come home safe everyday. Of course there are a couple bad apples and mistakes ( that can be deadly) some do to flexing their authority, but still very minor compared to the overall good they do... Thanks troopers, police, deputies, and such for your call to keep the law in our communities.

 

GG

[Elk Creek LeMieux]

If the two policemen outside the coffee shop were responding to a reported terrorist threat, then their dress is appropriate.

 

The two guys on the left are responding to a terrorist threat. That's not a FOB they're standing in. There are 40mm rounds on the UTV at left, and both men in the picture are carrying Designated Marksman Rifles (DMR's). You don't usually attach 203's to DMR's, so I expect this is part of a picture of an entire team, out looking for bad guys.

 

And only wearing the kit they need.

 

Bottom line is I want all four of those guys going home to their families when their duty is done. If the equipment helps, that's ok with me.

 

I absolutely agree! Body armor works! But neither of the individuals on the right are going to be any good at doing anything other than standing and delivering with that much garbage on. Imagine that guy climbing through a window to grab his wounded buddy out of a house, or running for cover, or trying to shoot from awkward cover, or carrying his wounded buddy, or negotiating any obstacle at all.

 

They look scary though!

 

And those "tactical" leg holsters look great, and if they're adjusted properly and not so low that they become knee holsters like half the people I see, then they're great for presenting the pistol in time of need.

 

But I can tell you from first hand experience that they absolutely suck to run very far in, and forget about negotiating obstacles and tight places with one on. Anything at all strapped to your legs is a transportable obstacle actually...

 

See picture at left?

 

Equipment may help, but it's quality training that brings people home. Not equipment. Might be it's time for some of the guilty PD's to spend some of that money on training, if they've so little faith in their officers.

[Chantry]

UB is correct, 95% of the police officers out there are good people.

 

Where the problem lies is the other 5% and the increasing number of SWAT raids on homes that are not involved in criminal activity, where the members of the household are being injured and family pets are being killed unnecessarily.

 

The officers that shot up the pick up truck during the Dorner incident: Shot a truck that was the wrong make and model, failed to identify the driver, sprayed 100+ rounds through the truck and neighborhood, injuring the 2 Hispanic women. They are all back on the job. That is unacceptable.

 

I use the above as just one example of police officers, even if they are a minority of officers, that commited actions that would see the average civilian convicted as a felon and sentenced to a long term in jial, The police officers that screw up that badly should not be allowed to continue as police officers and the problem that us "civilians" have is that the 95% that make up the good cops allow this to continue. Unfortunately I see a downward spiral in the relations between police and the average American, a downward spiral that will probably lead to more deaths among both groups.

 

Tacosa: Innocent people are being hurt by police officers for no good reason, of course people are starting to fear the police.

 

Boon Doggle: "Damn Public Perception" that is exactly the mindset that will further alienate the average, law abiding American from how they view police.

 

 

[Red Logan #12252]

UB is correct, 95% of the police officers out there are good people.

 

Where the problem lies is the other 5% and the increasing number of SWAT raids on homes that are not involved in criminal activity, where the members of the household are being injured and family pets are being killed unnecessarily.

 

The officers that shot up the pick up truck during the Dorner incident: Shot a truck that was the wrong make and model, failed to identify the driver, sprayed 100+ rounds through the truck and neighborhood, injuring the 2 Hispanic women. They are all back on the job. That is unacceptable.

 

I use the above as just one example of police officers, even if they are a minority of officers, that commited actions that would see the average civilian convicted as a felon and sentenced to a long term in jial, The police officers that screw up that badly should not be allowed to continue as police officers and the problem that us "civilians" have is that the 95% that make up the good cops allow this to continue. Unfortunately I see a downward spiral in the relations between police and the average American, a downward spiral that will probably lead to more deaths among both groups.

 

Tacosa: Innocent people are being hurt by police officers for no good reason, of course people are starting to fear the police.

 

Boon Doggle: "Damn Public Perception" that is exactly the mindset that will further alienate the average, law abiding American from how they view police.

 

 

SPOT ON, eh