John Boy Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 I didn't see posted ... The shooter initialing his score after each scenario on the score sheet. We don't do this at the monthly matches but our State Match - Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Showing the timers actual numbers to both the shooter and score keeper is a great aspect in CAS scoring However, that will not catch covering the last shot or so ( not picked up) We still need to do due diligence in other words we need to sometimes be open for witnessing the unexpected Trust but verify Report indiscretion when spotted, to the proper chain of command for verification and HOPEFULLY, A PROPER RESPONSE will be achieved That is best for all CAS Shooters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted July 18, 2014 Share Posted July 18, 2014 Sign off on your time w/penalties should be SOP. SASS is the only shooting sport I have been involved in that doesn't do this at any and all levels. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spades Hanlin SASS#66204 Posted July 19, 2014 Share Posted July 19, 2014 While i don't know of any missbehaving like some of the posts have described.. I think a more often witnessed loss of time to a good shooter, is poor spotting which I have seen more times than I care to admitt.. When people are spotting that have a hard time getting thru a given senerio with out getting a P themself's how are they going to spot for a really fast shooter that know's the senerio inside out and backwards and shoots it that fast.. To spot for these folks takes some forward thinking and good knowledge of the strings to be shot... Too many times I've seen spotter's look to each other shrugging their shoulders only to very sheepishly hold up a finger!! Not good. But we are all human and this is part of the game, but I do think that this problem has cost more lost sec. than all of the possible cheating put together that may have happened in this game... Not trying ot get OT but thats the view from my saddle.. Spades H. Next shooter please... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazen Vaquero, SASS 69509 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Announcing the time to the shooter, yes. Showing the timer to the shooter, not necessarily. The TO has enough going on. Fillmore As the shooter finishes the timer should be turned toward the shooter to allow them to see it as the time is voiced out loud to the scorekeeper. It is then up to the shooter to look or not. Timer should then be shown to the scorekeeper repeating the time and any misses and TO should see what is written down to verify it is correct. That has been a simple process that I have used to keep from having a score written down mistakenly. No more time needed. BV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Most of the videos are on the shooter. Does anyone know how the TO modified the times on the clock? An RO can easily cover the p/u with a finger, dropping shots from the total... doing this for the last shot or two will shave seconds off a time... and to add time... simply bounce a finger on the body of the timer... Holding timer next to your leg will also block the sound to shave seconds. One of the most important tools an RO has is right at his fingertips... the shot counter. Besides the time, I always verify the shot count, in order to ascertain whether the shooter shot the full course of fire and that errant shots from other stages weren't inadvertently picked up by the timer. I will admit that I've inadvertently tapped the timer, adding seconds to an apparent time.. and immediately told the shooter to make his guns safe and go back to the loading table. Other times, the counter didn't pick up all the shots... but... if placed correctly, the last shot is the one that counts most. But, by keeping the timer near the shooter, and ensuring it counts all the shots... goes a LONG way the ensuring the score is the correct one. As others have said, reading the time loudly, showing the timer to the shooter and the scorekeeper... places that RO in the best of circles. I just feel that noting the shot count and comparing it to the required number of rounds, ensures I've done my job to the best of my abilities. When a TO shows me the timer... I always look at the round count as well as the time... even as slow and uncaring about speed as I am. The fact that we have a "shot count" for each stage is a deterrent against such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar_slinger Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Guess I'm naive. Why would someone want to cheat. If there were big money involved, I may understand the motivation, but in most shooting sports,a fellow could take all his/her winnings from every cheated on match and maybe have enough to take his/her family out for a nice dinner, couple drinks, and perhaps a ball game. My personal integrity and ability to look in the mirror are worth more than that. If you can't win fair, what good is winning. Every match I've ever won, the "bragging rights" were priceless, the medal, certificate, ribbon or few dollars worht of winnings have been secondary. )never won a CAS match, yet...) Guess I just don't understand what motivates someone to cheat. The euphoria of winning must feel pretty darn hollow to a person who had to cheat to win. Guitar Slinger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Ron Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Howdy, Nothin worse than a cheat. Nothin. Nope, still aint thought of any. Maybe something I aint thought of...... Best CR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 As the shooter finishes the timer should be turned toward the shooter to allow them to see it as the time is voiced out loud to the scorekeeper. It is then up to the shooter to look or not. Timer should then be shown to the scorekeeper repeating the time and any misses and TO should see what is written down to verify it is correct. That has been a simple process that I have used to keep from having a score written down mistakenly. No more time needed. BV As PWB might say, maybe you should take the RO I course again, (or just refer to page 7 of the RO I manual). Please don't try to make up something or suggest others do something that's not currently part of our sport. Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 As the shooter finishes the timer should be turned toward the shooter to allow them to see it as the time is voiced out loud to the scorekeeper. It is then up to the shooter to look or not. Timer should then be shown to the scorekeeper repeating the time and any misses and TO should see what is written down to verify it is correct. That has been a simple process that I have used to keep from having a score written down mistakenly. No more time needed. BV +1...ends the discussion and takes absolutely no extra time for the posse. It also insures that the shooter has at least had the chance to both see it and hear it. Then call misses and penalties loud enough that the shooter can hear them on the way to the ULT so if there is a question it can be handled immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Guess I'm naive. Why would someone want to cheat. If there were big money involved, I may understand the motivation, but in most shooting sports,a fellow could take all his/her winnings from every cheated on match and maybe have enough to take his/her family out for a nice dinner, couple drinks, and perhaps a ball game. My personal integrity and ability to look in the mirror are worth more than that. If you can't win fair, what good is winning. Every match I've ever won, the "bragging rights" were priceless, the medal, certificate, ribbon or few dollars worht of winnings have been secondary. )never won a CAS match, yet...) Guess I just don't understand what motivates someone to cheat. The euphoria of winning must feel pretty darn hollow to a person who had to cheat to win. Guitar Slinger. Really? People kill for a pack a cigs...or a six pack... Let's not make this a study of human behavior. All ya gotta do to cheat is cover the mic before your "Buddy" has finished the stage...or tap the timer after your "non-buddy" has finished a stage...show the timer all ya want, but it don't mean nuthin for a true cheater. Round count don't mean nuthin either as timers often miss pickin up the rifle. We is what we is...cheater will be caught...and then they will have no friends and no one will shoot with them...then they'll leave. Or...we video verify every stage shot. oy... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Most Wanted Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 As the shooter finishes the timer should be turned toward the shooter to allow them to see it as the time is voiced out loud to the scorekeeper. It is then up to the shooter to look or not. Timer should then be shown to the scorekeeper repeating the time and any misses and TO should see what is written down to verify it is correct. That has been a simple process that I have used to keep from having a score written down mistakenly. No more time needed. BV I do the same thing . I've had some score keepers that had trouble with the math or reversing numbers . Can easily be done with no extra time per shooter . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 I keep seeing the statement show the timer, show the timer, Absolutely perfect response, yet cheating can still prevail, very rare, but it can Some how the TO cover's, the last shot, showing the timer ...... will not fix that, and by the way, who looks for that, even I don't, but, show the timer and everyone thinks it's ok, '. ',,,,,may not be so ok Just something as simple as bullying the counters / posse happens to me that is a small form of cheating, especially when applied again and again Folks cave in easier these days due to political correctness and so on, making it even easier for the stronger willed fast talker Does cheating happen, yes, is the sky falling, no Just open yours eyes, and call a Miss a miss, call a p a p etc. and call out unsavory behavior if you see it Even timers (the thing in your hand) can be off, but that is a whole different aspect and not necessarily cheating But if the same posse always seems to uses that same timer month after month, And that same timer moved with the posse to every stage, at that club, during that era When the timer was proven to be wrong by the manufacturer, it was addressed (just monthly shoots) no real harm done The timers were sent back to the manufacturer, and the one out of three, was off approximately 5 seconds faster than the others, proven by the manufacturer, for average 45 second stages. What is the point If something does not pass the smell test, shoot after shoot, or in some cases shooter ya just might be on to something that others smell yet ignore for to long CAS / SASS are the best bunch of folks I have ever experience, but still keep yer eye, ears and nose open. sassmaddmike@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Frank Norfleet Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 When I run the timer... At the completion of the run, before doing anything else, I immediately SHOW the shooter their time. Then AS I am polling the spotters, I call out the time. Twenty three point forty one Spotters say one miss. Then I repeat the time in numerical format. Two three point four one Plus one miss. I walk the timer back to the scorekeeper(s), show the time and visually display number of misses. And I stay there until the scorekeeper has acknowledged me and repeated the time and misses back to me. Echo Meadows was writing down scores at a recent shoot, along with a second scorer recording times in ACES. Echo had already repeated back the score, but while the other scorer had entered it into the tablet, she had not repeated it back to me. As I was standing there, Echo nudged the other scorer and said, "you better repeat the score or we will never get rid of him". While I was hurt that she wanted me gone so strongly, I was glad that my efforts to ensure everyone ends up on the same page had not gone unnoticed. And even then, from time to time mistakes get made, constant diligence is required. Cheats will require that diligence times 100. +1 As the shooter is finishes the course of fire I look at the timer to make sure it gets the last shot. I immediately move the timer to the shooters field of vision and announce the time. After poling the spotters I show the time to the scorekeepers and watch them write it down. I have been known to transpose numbers. When this process breaks down, problems occur. To quote Happy Jack, "Integrity is all you bring to a match and is all you leave with." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 +1 To quote Happy Jack, "Integrity is all you bring to a match and is all you leave with." Very true, however, it would appear that some do not care about integrity, so those with integrity, and integrity, for the whole,,,,must still watch out and call out those that have no integrity.... In summery, integrity goes beyond the personal level, and it should Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conestoga Smith, SASS #18219 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Howdy- WAY back when I started in competative shooting, I started in IPSC. After I had been in more than a year, things were spoken of that were... troubling. Most timers at the time came with a large springy metal clip that could be used to put the timer on the belt for a "hands free" situation when not actually in use. The clip had an "off label" use in less than honest hands, however. after a match, I was shown by someone who had NEVER timed a shooter ( Mind you, I never timed a shooter, either ) how , with a finger, the clip could be "twanged" after the last shot, falsely adding time to the run that was just completed . As everyone had their earmuffs on, the twang was easy to miss, and the time shown was taken as true. Have not bothered to look at every timer since then; hopefully THAT hole was plugged. Still, this scoring scandal is just another example of how even a little authority can be perverted by SOME into something that has NO place in competitions where Sportsmanship should be valued by ALL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurricane Deck 100366 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 As PWB might say, maybe you should take the RO I course again, (or just refer to page 7 of the RO I manual). Please don't try to make up something or suggest others do something that's not currently part of our sport. Fillmore Seems like there are a number of people already doing it. Suggestions like this are what carry sports forward. It would be a small change and help cement the integrity of the score. It would not be the end all be all of the score, but it would help, and many other shooting sports do it. It's a good suggestion, as proven by other experienced shooters that have been in the sport for a long time are already doing, as evidenced by this very thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Mushman Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 As the shooter finishes the timer should be turned toward the shooter to allow them to see it as the time is voiced out loud to the scorekeeper. It is then up to the shooter to look or not. Timer should then be shown to the scorekeeper repeating the time and any misses and TO should see what is written down to verify it is correct. That has been a simple process that I have used to keep from having a score written down mistakenly. No more time needed. BV I think this is VERY important - the TO taking the extra time to walk over to the scorer after announcing the time and penalities - actually watching them write it down, so both of you are in complete agreement as to what the timer said and is actually recorded. As TO, more than once I have found mysefl or the scorekeeper in dyslexic mode, or recording something different than we both said out loud to each other, Most times innocent mistakes, but mistakes that cost several people - and not to mention the possibility of shenanigans. If this is done, then only playing with the timer (covering mic to shorten time, or tapping/twanging the clip to add time) is left for either honest mistake, or intentional cheating (unless both the TO and the scorer are in cahoots). Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bugler Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Chisler, Well that just baffled me to no end!!! as stated in The Princess Bride...."Inconcievable"!! Bugler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Ringer Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 +1 As the shooter is finishes the course of fire I look at the timer to make sure it gets the last shot. I immediately move the timer to the shooters field of vision and announce the time. After poling the spotters I show the time to the scorekeepers and watch them write it down. I have been known to transpose numbers. When this process breaks down, problems occur. To quote Happy Jack, "Integrity is all you bring to a match and is all you leave with." Amen Brother! People seldom remember who wins or looses in our sport. But they'll all remember if you act like an ass, bully people or get caught cheating!! Reminds me of an issue in the Pacific Northwest that folks will never forget and has done unrepairable damage to our beloved sport. Regards, Ringer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Really? People kill for a pack a cigs...or a six pack... Let's not make this a study of human behavior. All ya gotta do to cheat is cover the mic before your "Buddy" has finished the stage...or tap the timer after your "non-buddy" has finished a stage...show the timer all ya want, but it don't mean nuthin for a true cheater. Round count don't mean nuthin either as timers often miss pickin up the rifle. We is what we is...cheater will be caught...and then they will have no friends and no one will shoot with them...then they'll leave. Or...we video verify every stage shot. oy... Phantom +1 You can show the timer to the shooter and the person recording it. BUT. if they take the timer and place it in a place it does not pick up those last pistol shots if pistols are last. Showing the timer does not matter. This is what we seen happen. Funny thing is we was talking about this over a year after it happened. Never mention names at all and 2 people know exactly who it was as they seen the same thing. As that shoot with them later that year and they was pulling the same stuff. They made sure that there did not get to run the timers for each other the rest of the match. And some how there average times went up a few seconds. Again. Hope they read this and know who there are and knock it off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Ringer Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Egregious? Indeed... and how much easier is it to award a penalty for a gun slipping a bale to one shooter, but someone else NOT awarding that same penalty because it 'slipped' but it didn't 'fall'? Penalties in SASS are 10 seconds! My all- time favorite is the 170 break that "wasn't that bad". Closely followed by the "P" that doesn't get awarded because the shooter 'was aiming at the other target so it's a miss'. We all know what 5 or 10 secs does in a RP match. Don't think that crap doesn't happen in SASS. Two stages after I had to award a SDQ at WR the same shooter was at the ULT hunched over my rifle. It occurred to me later that he insisted that I work the lever, which was closed and a 45 LC live round came out after 3 spotters and a TO had called me "CLEAN" on the stage. It wasn't until I looked closely at the bullet when I returned home that I realized the bullet wasn't even mine. My suspicions were confirmed when I shot it....it was loaded with black powder. Interpersonal conflicts aren't tolerated at the range. This video is a great example of how much planning it takes to get it done the right way. I had a problem my first year at WR with a cheater. This guy wanted to run the timer all the time. Apparently he didn't like me betting him (and we weren't in the same category). He tried all sorts of tricks, which proved he was an accomplished cheater and win at any and all cost type of troll! 1) Hold his fingers to show what he had seen for misses, all while running the timer. 2) Not show the timer to shooter or score keeper. people had to get on him to show it. 3) after announcing time and polling spotters (clean) lean down close to the score keeper and show time and hold up a finger and quietly say one miss. 4) holding the timer/clock funny?? I'm sure trying to add time! 5) Argue to get with posse Marshall and posse why somebody should get a P, when he wasn't spotting or running clock. This guy was a real troll!! I haven't ever seen him since WR 2010 and hope I never do! This kind of situation is very difficult for a new shooter to deal with and does damage to our sport. Now with some years of experience in the game. I'll never stand by and allow that kind of behavior to happen to any shooter! (I'll go public with names and details if needed) Regards, Ringer 2) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 If we don't stand firm, who will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Cheating can also take on a different form of character. For example, a match can be set up to favor a particular style shooter. You might have ALL stages fired left to right because a particular shooter doesn't like right to left sequences. You could have someone who shoots a '97 SG and is good at grabbing 3 shells at a time. And then some of the stages have 3 KD's only. This would slap at your SxS shooters. Maybe a favored person is good with reloading their rifle and an unusual amount of stages are set up with 9 +1 rifle, which would include a reload. So, all the aspects of shooting doesn't always have to be centered around the timer and its operator. Its possible that even someone who sets up a match or writes the stages can cheat. Thats why I always like stages where the targets engagements can start either on the right or left target. And in some instances, I like the 'start on ANY target' instructions. Another aspect of cheating is PROP height. A very short shooter can benefit from a particular height table or prop. And a short shooter can suffer from a particular style prop height. It IS possible to set up a match just to benefit a particular size shooter(s) and/or slightly handicap a tall shooter. And its possible to do this all by design and intent without nobody realizing it. And THE WORSE (in my opinion) would be to set up a match to have toooooo many split pistol scenerios that require a GF to either shoot DD or restage pistols (assuming a restaging area is available). As far as SASS has come, its possible to set up a whole 2 day match with variety and still minimize the split pistol stages. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Just some questions for the wire. After watching the first video I noticed that many of the names that had time subtracted from their score were the same people over and over. In the letter published at the end of page one the USPSA reply said they found that those who had time subtracted had no knowledge that this was going on in their favor. By no stretch am I the fastest shooter around but I am very consistent in how I shoot a stage, Barring miracles or train wrecks I can usually predict within a couple seconds what my time will be and it seems to me that these top shooters in USPSA should be able to do so as well. SOooo How could the USPSA determine that these competitors were not aware of what was happening on their behalf? How could these competitors not wonder why they were beating their rivals (sometimes betters) when this RO ran the clock (like many in our game I have a fair idea who my competition will be and roughly where I stack up) If their rivals beat them when a different RO was doing the timing how come they did not ask what's different themselves? seems this had been going on for a while after all. Over all I do not think the entire story has been heard. Regards Gateway Kid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Sometimes I'm surprised at the time I run...maybe because I don't go into a stage thinking about what kind of time I'm going to run. I would be surprised if I ran a good stage and then someone like Matt Black...Bud...you name it, came along and ran a good stage and didn't beat me. I know more about how I run compared to others then I know about what kinda time I'm going to run a stage. Now if your times are real close to your competitors...well...you just don't know... I believe it was one guy being a cheat...a liar...a waste of skin...rather then a couple. IMHO... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Cheating can also take on a different form of character. For example, a match can be set up to favor a particular style shooter. You might have ALL stages fired left to right because a particular shooter doesn't like right to left sequences. You could have someone who shoots a '97 SG and is good at grabbing 3 shells at a time. And then some of the stages have 3 KD's only. This would slap at your SxS shooters. Maybe a favored person is good with reloading their rifle and an unusual amount of stages are set up with 9 +1 rifle, which would include a reload. So, all the aspects of shooting doesn't always have to be centered around the timer and its operator. Its possible that even someone who sets up a match or writes the stages can cheat. Thats why I always like stages where the targets engagements can start either on the right or left target. And in some instances, I like the 'start on ANY target' instructions. Another aspect of cheating is PROP height. A very short shooter can benefit from a particular height table or prop. And a short shooter can suffer from a particular style prop height. It IS possible to set up a match just to benefit a particular size shooter(s) and/or slightly handicap a tall shooter. And its possible to do this all by design and intent without nobody realizing it. And THE WORSE (in my opinion) would be to set up a match to have toooooo many split pistol scenerios that require a GF to either shoot DD or restage pistols (assuming a restaging area is available). As far as SASS has come, its possible to set up a whole 2 day match with variety and still minimize the split pistol stages. ..........Widder Have you seen this? I've actually seen this happen and at the time I felt it wasn't a fair deal for SXS shooters. Sadly, it was a well known competitor writing the scenarios and it was done for several stages/shoots. Sometime setup for 5 shotgun targets, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar_slinger Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Really? People kill for a pack a cigs...or a six pack... Let's not make this a study of human behavior. ... Phantom At least the killer has a pack of cigs or a six pack. What does a person get out of cheating to win a CAS match? Fame? Fortune? Power? A man who will lie or cheat (different sides of same coin) will do anything and canot be trusted EVER. Not a study of human behavior, however the OP was far closer to a study of human behavior and how the cheaters were caught than an owner's manual on how to cheat in CAS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosscut hardy Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 If a husband/wife or close family members are going to record scores for each other, they should at the least get someone nearby to watch them record this time on score sheet. I have personally seen cheating done like this on more than one occasion. There is no nice way to say this...."YOU ARE A CHEAT".... You know who you are and I sure hope you read this personal post and STOP CHEATING. Have also seen folks with score sheet who would absolutely not write down family member score without someone watching. ....crosscut hardy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Like already stated by wider Stage design written on purpose to handicap styles is a low form of cheating Vertical staging is not done much any more, but it does allow roe down range movement A past MD would write down range stages ( which I adore by the way) However his picket fence prop for those stages clearly favored 97's When confronted by S x S shooters, he would just do the cold evil Hollywood laugh You see, the picket fence horizontal supports fit a 97, but not a short S x S opened So the SxS shooter would have to take the extra time to restage against a vertical fence panel, where the 97 would stage anywhere That was done for a very long period of time even after many complaints I know vote with your feet, and I did than, and do now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Guess I'm naive. Why would someone want to cheat. If there were big money involved, I may understand the motivation, but in most shooting sports,a fellow could take all his/her winnings from every cheated on match and maybe have enough to take his/her family out for a nice dinner, couple drinks, and perhaps a ball game. My personal integrity and ability to look in the mirror are worth more than that. If you can't win fair, what good is winning. Every match I've ever won, the "bragging rights" were priceless, the medal, certificate, ribbon or few dollars worht of winnings have been secondary. )never won a CAS match, yet...) Guess I just don't understand what motivates someone to cheat. The euphoria of winning must feel pretty darn hollow to a person who had to cheat to win. Guitar Slinger. One of the best selling items at garage sales and auction sales are trophys. Any type. Put them on your mantel and have proof of your glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 At least the killer has a pack of cigs or a six pack. What does a person get out of cheating to win a CAS match? Fame? Fortune? Power? A man who will lie or cheat (different sides of same coin) will do anything and canot be trusted EVER. Not a study of human behavior, however the OP was far closer to a study of human behavior and how the cheaters were caught than an owner's manual on how to cheat in CAS. I'm not going to argue any more with you...Griff would send me a photo of something...representing the person I'm arguing with. Folks will cheat for the sake of just about anything. Good luck with your CAS career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 One of the best selling items at garage sales and auction sales are trophys. Any type. Put them on your mantel and have proof of your glory. Don't poo-poo awards. Many folks work real hard for them. They are not in for the money...since there isn't any...so the trophy's are all there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar_slinger Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 I'm not going to argue any more with you...Griff would send me a photo of something...representing the person I'm arguing with. Folks will cheat for the sake of just about anything. Good luck with your CAS career. Sorry you took it as an argument, I sure wasn't arguing. I know there are liars, cheats and low-lifes everywhere. Just don't understand the mentality that goes into getting something you didn't earn that's all. Wasn't poking a stick in your eye at all. I'm in it for fun and don't really look to have a "CAS career" just a good time at shoots. Good luck with your endeavors too. Guitar Slinger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted July 20, 2014 Share Posted July 20, 2014 Cheating can also take on a different form of character. For example, a match can be set up to favor a particular style shooter. You might have ALL stages fired left to right because a particular shooter doesn't like right to left sequences. Oh yes,,,,, how fast can a left hand shooter run backwards vs a right handed running forward in a left to right stage? Over 12 stage match?And especially if the stage runs the shooter into a wall on the far right side where addressing the long gun is required? You could have someone who shoots a '97 SG and is good at grabbing 3 shells at a time. And then some of the stages have 3 KD's only. This would slap at your SxS shooters. .Like wise, as often seen today,,,, the SG targets 'pairs' are set on top of each other and all a sxs shooter has to do is pull the trigger twice as fast as possible, w/o any aiming and get both. I agree, there are ways to favor the SG portion of a stage toward a 97's,, but the last few years, the pendelum has swung to the sxs Maybe a favored person is good with reloading their rifle and an unusual amount of stages are set up with 9 +1 rifle, which would include a reload. Yep!!! Do you know if your rifle can hold 11rd in case you can load anytime after the beep??? or how good are you at loading one after shooting gun dry? Free spin pawls in pistols use to be common,,,,, hardly worth practiciing reloading a single pistol round any more. So, all the aspects of shooting doesn't always have to be centered around the timer and its operator. Its possible that even someone who sets up a match or writes the stages can cheat. I don't know if it is cheating, but it certainly could be if the stage writer informs all his buddies what to expect out of the ordinary, well before the match. And that is fairly common. Thats why I always like stages where the targets engagements can start either on the right or left target. And in some instances, I like the 'start on ANY target' instructions. Another aspect of cheating is PROP height. A very short shooter can benefit from a particular height table or prop. And a short shooter can suffer from a particular style prop height. It IS possible to set up a match just to benefit a particular size shooter(s) and/or slightly handicap a tall shooter. And its possible to do this all by design and intent without nobody realizing it. And THE WORSE (in my opinion) would be to set up a match to have toooooo many split pistol scenerios that require a GF to either shoot DD or restage pistols (assuming a restaging area is available). As far as SASS has come, its possible to set up a whole 2 day match with variety and still minimize the split pistol stages. Split pistols is about as good as writing 'very' right handed stages. never the less, it wipes out one sector of shooters from the overall award race. Then think of stage props that are very low for taller shooters, or very high tables for the short shooters. PS... just got back from a sand lot monthly match where there was a stage for shooter to start with SG in hand (on shoulder if one wishted) and have two SG shells in hand.... at beep engage three SG targets of which two were stacked and could be taken down with one SG round. In other words... if you can get three SG KD with two rounds,,,, good for you,,,, then move to the right to next shooting position.. Hmmmm... but it was fun anyway. Ya think it was stacked? LOL ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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