Huge Cheating Scandal

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Sorry you took it as an argument, I sure wasn't arguing.

 

I know there are liars, cheats and low-lifes everywhere. Just don't understand the mentality that goes into getting something you didn't earn that's all. Wasn't poking a stick in your eye at all.

 

I'm in it for fun and don't really look to have a "CAS career" just a good time at shoots. Good luck with your endeavors too.

 

Guitar Slinger.

My apology...I think I may have read more into your post then what was there.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

 

PS: We're all in it for FUN...as a wise kid once said: If I can't compete, I won't have fun. If I don't have fun, I won't compete.

[Blastmaster]

At least the killer has a pack of cigs or a six pack.

 

What does a person get out of cheating to win a CAS match? Fame? Fortune? Power? yes

 

A man who will lie or cheat (different sides of same coin) will do anything and canot be trusted EVER. you got it.

 

 

[Wild Walt. 92206]

Cheating does happen, and you don't always catch it. I am fairly new to this, and was shooting the Indiana Black Powder Guild in 2012. I was really new then.

I have no idea why the people that were keeping the score did it, but they put me down for misses when I did not have any. I had a different alias back then.

I would not have caught it, but it is my home range. The person entering the scores asked if I had a gun malfunction. I asked why, I had no idea what they were talking about.

They said that they were wondering because they had never seen me shoot that many misses. The persons keeping the score had me down for about 10 misses on five stages.

When she told me that, I remember seeing the scorekeeper erasing scores on the score sheet and joking with another shooter that they were friends with about it.

I had no idea what they were doing until asked about the gun malfunction. I remember hearing and seeing them. I am not a paranoid person, but I knew right then what they had been doing.

I was new, so I asked a couple of people why that would have happened. They said that they had probably just made a mistake when they were writing the scores down. A mistake is something that happens on one stage, not several.

I did not buy that at all because I saw them and heard them. I just did not know what they were doing at the time. I must have done something to offend the person(s) keeping the scores for the stage (there were two of them). I thought about not continuing with this, but it is a lot of fun, and I really do enjoy it. I was not going to let them keep me from doing something that I had grown to enjoy. I always try to treat people the way that I would like to be treated, and to this day I still do not understand why that happened.

I do not care what kind of competition you are in, if there is a score or time being kept, there will be people doing their own different things. I guess it takes all types.

Now, I just make sure that I know what I shot before I leave the stage. On the rare times when I am keeping the times, I show the shooter their time and show the person entering the stage scores.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I do the same thing . I've had some score keepers that had trouble with the math or reversing numbers . Can easily be done with no extra time per shooter .

I always watch the scorekeeper write down the time and won't leave their side until I see they have written it correctly.

I sure hope clubs that use ACES write down the score on paper also. The paper always wins over electronics when there is a difference.

 

I always liked a big display that showed everyone on the posse and the peanut galley what the time was. I think it made the game more interesting to the spectator. However, the darn things never seemed to work correctly.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Cheating does happen, and you don't always catch it. I am fairly new to this, and was shooting the Indiana Black Powder Guild in 2012. I was really new then.

I have no idea why the people that were keeping the score did it, but they put me down for misses when I did not have any. I had a different alias back then.

That's how people get on the "Do not posse me with" list.

 

I would not have caught it, but it is my home range. The person entering the scores asked if I had a gun malfunction. I asked why, I had no idea what they were talking about.

They said that they were wondering because they had never seen me shoot that many misses. The persons keeping the score had me down for about 10 misses on five stages.

When she told me that, I remember seeing the scorekeeper erasing scores on the score sheet and joking with another shooter that they were friends with about it.

Erasures should not be allowed without the shooters and Posse Marshal's initials.

 

I had no idea what they were doing until asked about the gun malfunction. I remember hearing and seeing them. I am not a paranoid person, but I knew right then what they had been doing.

I was new, so I asked a couple of people why that would have happened. They said that they had probably just made a mistake when they were writing the scores down. A mistake is something that happens on one stage, not several.

On major shoots, the shooters initials should be required at the end of each stage.

 

I did not buy that at all because I saw them and heard them. I just did not know what they were doing at the time. I must have done something to offend the person(s) keeping the scores for the stage (there were two of them). I thought about not continuing with this, but it is a lot of fun, and I really do enjoy it. I was not going to let them keep me from doing something that I had grown to enjoy. I always try to treat people the way that I would like to be treated, and to this day I still do not understand why that happened.

I do not care what kind of competition you are in, if there is a score or time being kept, there will be people doing their own different things. I guess it takes all types.

Now, I just make sure that I know what I shot before I leave the stage. On the rare times when I am keeping the times, I show the shooter their time and show the person entering the stage scores.

[Burt Blade, #25657]

A possible solution to the illicit manipulation of timers:

 

If the timer had a "time from beep" mode, it could be used as a secondary check. The Timer Operator uses a timer on normal "beep to start mode". One spotter, nearest the shooter, has a second timer on "time from beep". Or, stage it at the last shooting position in a place unlikely to be hit by brass.

 

How the "time from beep" would work: On timer #2, press button to reset/enable. Timer #2 displays "0.00" and "BTS". Timer operator then gives the commands, then presses the button on #1. At the beep from #1, timer #2 starts counting time and displaying times shot by shot. At the last shot, compare #1 and #2. They should match.

 

Granted, #2 may not catch shots, and may be too far away if held by a spotter. The option would be to place it at the last firing position, arm it, and walk away. the beeps are quite loud, and should always be audible to a second timer nearby. If the #2 timer has a small parabolic "dish" around the microphone, it could work from far away as long as it was pointed at the shooter.

 

This might work well at big matches, that could be set up with remote microphones or #2 timers.

 

Another option might just be to video all shooters at major matches.

 

 

Another idea: some clever geek might make an app for a smartphone or tablet that could be timer #2. A period-looking belt pouch or large pocket inside the vest would hide the phone-sized gadget.

 

 

Now it takes two to cheat the timer directly.

[Blastmaster]

 

Cheating does happen, and you don't always catch it. I am fairly new to this, and was shooting the Indiana Black Powder Guild in 2012. I was really new then.

I have no idea why the people that were keeping the score did it, but they put me down for misses when I did not have any. I had a different alias back then.

That's how people get on the "Do not posse me with" list.

 

 

So, you do not posse with them,,,,, they still are there at the match and influencing the outcome of others and perhaps your placement withing catagory/match.

 

I would not have caught it, but it is my home range. The person entering the scores asked if I had a gun malfunction. I asked why, I had no idea what they were talking about.

They said that they were wondering because they had never seen me shoot that many misses. The persons keeping the score had me down for about 10 misses on five stages.

When she told me that, I remember seeing the scorekeeper erasing scores on the score sheet and joking with another shooter that they were friends with about it.

Erasures should not be allowed without the shooters and Posse Marshal's initials.

 

If ACES is used, the score is sent to the base computer and that is probably what is used to tally up for the awards.... the paper copy is just backup if there is a hickup with ACES, If no hickup,, then you will never know about erasing.

 

 

[guitar_slinger]

My apology...I think I may have read more into your post then what was there.

 

Cheers!

 

Phantom

 

PS: We're all in it for FUN...as a wise kid once said: If I can't compete, I won't have fun. If I don't have fun, I won't compete.

Phantom,

Thanks. Apology accepted. Problem with written media is it's hard to tell what was on the other guy's mind. I sure didn't mean any offense.

 

Guitar Slinger.

[Peach Tree Kid]

You know it's really not a bad idea.

 

 

.....Phantom 27.17 and 1!

 

Ohhh wait I ment 17.17 and none, you must have misunderstood me!

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

 

 

Cheating does happen, and you don't always catch it. I am fairly new to this, and was shooting the Indiana Black Powder Guild in 2012. I was really new then.

I have no idea why the people that were keeping the score did it, but they put me down for misses when I did not have any. I had a different alias back then.

That's how people get on the "Do not posse me with" list.

 

 

So, you do not posse with them,,,,, they still are there at the match and influencing the outcome of others and perhaps your placement withing catagory/match.

 

I would not have caught it, but it is my home range. The person entering the scores asked if I had a gun malfunction. I asked why, I had no idea what they were talking about.

They said that they were wondering because they had never seen me shoot that many misses. The persons keeping the score had me down for about 10 misses on five stages.

When she told me that, I remember seeing the scorekeeper erasing scores on the score sheet and joking with another shooter that they were friends with about it.

Erasures should not be allowed without the shooters and Posse Marshal's initials.

 

If ACES is used, the score is sent to the base computer and that is probably what is used to tally up for the awards.... the paper copy is just backup if there is a hickup with ACES, If no hickup,, then you will never know about erasing.

 

 

 

This should probably been pulled, but as an IBPG member and long time visitor at the Pass, I will state that this club would not stand for shenanigans like this. Any assumptions on your part are just that. Either you missed, or a mistake was made, but blatant disregard for open and honest score keeping did not happen.

 

CR

[Michigan Slim]

I consider myself lucky I guess. I can't think of anyone in our club that would cheat on the score. We are very good about not spotting for family and calling out times/miss's, etc. This is getting harder cause your all family now! LOL.

I have met a couple over the years that you think maybe, just maybe, they would fudge some. But I couldn't back that up and have never seen any sign of it. I HAVE seen shooters turn in penalties on themselves before they were even mentioned or not noticed by others. And they are my friends because that is who they are!

And please! No videos at matches! Surest way for me to trainwreck!! LOLOLOL

 

Keep it civil folks -this thread is important. It's too easy to read too much into what is written. Call me guilty too.

 

See you down the trail!

[Fordyce Beals]

I don't remember any one talking about the back button, seen it used to negate a rifle jam train wreck of the timers wife. Then at another match I had to listen to how wonderful the Remington bronze she won looked on her desk at work. To paraphrase Popeye, "They are what they are."

 

Fordyce

[Madd Mike #8595]

I think the main takeaway from this post about cheating is

 

> however rare it may be, it happens, it can happen, it has happened

> trust but verify

> if you see funny business, then don't be afraid to report it

[Dusty Chaps, SASS #5925]

Cheating does occur in the scoring.

I was at a California match where two couples were thrown out after doctoring scores for one another.

The two 'ladies" were the sole scorekeepers and improved the times for all four.

Shame on them.

Kudos to the match director.

[Amarillo Rattler]

Sure proud to be a part of CAS.

 

1st time I quit USPSA, all the shooters of my squad refused to do any squad duties. I DQ'ed 'em all on the first stage and went home.

 

The 2d time I quit USPSA, I was the RO/timer and the shooter chased me backwards for 2+ yards trying for a reshoot after a miss. He didn't get it.

 

It sure is great to leave all CAS/SASS matchs with good memories of each and every Pard who shoots straight!!!

 

Ladies and Gents all.

 

Just sayin'

 

AR

[Madd Mike #8595]

It is good to finally see some folks accept that cheating does in fact happen, even in our beloved CAS

 

Point is

Just keep your mind, eyes, and ears open to that possibility, and report funny business

 

Pretty simple solution

[Ventura Slim, SASS #35690]

I would like to believe that cheating happens more (and not that much) in any other shooting sport than cowboy. What would Roy say?

Lets always point the timer to the scorekeeper and affirm the misses with the spotters. Its really hard to cheat or be accused of it when two people are involved.

[Hikes Point Hank]

Is there anything in place "rule-wise" if for any reason a timer does not pick up the "last shot" and a stage is shot in an unreasonably short time?

Whats the correct procedure or call for an obviously incorrect time?

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Timer FAILURE = Reshoot

 

RO-I Page 22

On a reshoot/restart, the competitor starts over clean, carrying only accrued safety penalties forward. At all SASS annual club, state, Regional, National, and World Championship matches, no reshoots/restarts will be given after the first shot goes down range as determined by the Chief Range Officer and the Match Director, except for:
• Prop or match equipment failure
• A Range Officer impeding the progress of the shooter
• Timer failure or unrecorded time

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Is there anything in place "rule-wise" if for any reason a timer does not pick up the "last shot" and a stage is shot in an unreasonably short time?

Whats the correct procedure or call for an obviously incorrect time?

Hi Hank,

 

This is exactly why it is never good to shoot rifle last. Unfortunately, where I shoot most gun order is shooter's choice. I was TO once and when the shooter picked up his last gun, rifle, At the first shot, I started trying to ensure the timer was picking up the rifle rounds. I did not get one rifle round recorded. Shooter didn't want to reshoot. He was told he had to. He still shot the rifle last. Someone with longer arms than me ran the timer and got the last shot.

 

I guess if he refused to shoot it again, we could have given him a DNF. However, I really wish the rifle was never last. I've seen TOs who never look at the timer. How do they know it is getting the last shot.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Shooting Bull]

Hi Hank,

 

This is exactly why it is never good to shoot rifle last. Unfortunately, where I shoot most gun order is shooter's choice. I was TO once and when the shooter picked up his last gun, rifle, At the first shot, I started trying to ensure the timer was picking up the rifle rounds. I did not get one rifle round recorded. Shooter didn't want to reshoot. He was told he had to. He still shot the rifle last. Someone with longer arms than me ran the timer and got the last shot.

 

I guess if he refused to shoot it again, we could have given him a DNF. However, I really wish the rifle was never last. I've seen TOs who never look at the timer. How do they know it is getting the last shot.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

Not sure I understand this. Was the one rifle round the LAST round? If so then I understand. If not, what difference does it make?

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

 

Not sure I understand this. Was the one rifle round the LAST round? If so then I understand. If not, what difference does it make?

I try to ensure the timer is picking up before the last shot so I can move it where it might pick up the last shot. The timer did not advance with any of the rifle rounds. It would have been clearer if I'd written any.

[Jack Strong]

It's a sad story all around for USPSA and their members. Kudos to Mad Mike for offering the quote from President Reagan, "trust but verify".

 

Likely no one will ever know how the malefactor reasoned his way into such a mess. Some wise person once said "there's no way to know what's in another persons heart." (Loosely quoted)

[Snakebite]

I was a little apprehensive about commenting on this post, but finally decided to do it. I've seen cheating in our game in many forms over the past 20+ years.... I am Happy to say that I have NOT seen a great deal of it.

 

A lot of what some folks call "Cheating", is just a shooter who is trying to squeeze out the best time possible, and may cut a little too close to the line once and a while in his quest to get into the winner's circle. Some of our shooters have used questionable equipment mods in that Quest. I know for a fact that a large number of the rules we have today were put into place because of a (or a very few) shooters who were constantly finding loopholes in the riules, and jumping through them at every opportunity. Some of the names are Legendary.... they are Competitors to the MAX..... but I don't think that I could go so far as to call them Cheaters. They just run so close to the line that you have to watch them very closely.

 

Is the guy who finds a empty hull or cartridge in his gun that no one else caught, and doesn't say anything, really a cheater? Naw... he is just a little lacking in Integrity, but I don't think that I could call him a cheater. (although one guy thinks I did)

 

So who does that leave? Well, that leaves the outright SCUMBAGS who purposely report the wrong times to the scorekeeper. No...showing them the timer does not guarantee that won't happen. The guy I caught doing it just claimed that it picked up a extra shot. I don't believe that this type of cheating happens very much at all and I've only seen it that ONE time. IMO, the majority of the cheating that goes on is done by a team of shooters who get themselves into the Spotting position for each other and simply fail to see misses. It is a very easy thing to do and I believe that it happens much more often than some folks believe it does. This type of "Team Shooting" is without question the most difficult thing to deal with.

 

The bottom line is this..... NOTHING controls CHEATING better than educating our membership. The ROC responded to this issue by strengthening our training program, and instituting the Certified instructor program. It has helped a good deal. If every posse member knows and understands the rules, their combined strength WILL convince the Cheater to either straighten up his act, or move on down the road.

 

We will never see a complete end to cheating, but if we end it when we see it, we can keep it at Bay.

 

Snakebite

[Molasses Ben]

I consider myself lucky I guess. I can't think of anyone in our club that would cheat on the score. We are very good about not spotting for family and calling out times/miss's, etc. This is getting harder cause your all family now! LOL.

Heh. I come from a different family. Whenever I spot for my dad or my sister, I always hold up at least five fingers before the beep.

 

I'm kidding of course. I don't know if I'm inexperienced, unobservant, or just plain lucky, but I can't think of a time when I've seen a CAS shooter try to cheat. Of all the sports and competitions I've been a part of, this is definietly one of the most honorable. I know that there are cheats out there though and I pity them almost as much as I am disgusted by them. How sad does your life have to be for you to feel good about any success achieved through nefarious means?

 

A big thanks to all of you who came before me and who are leading the way now. More than anything it is the people who keep CAS pure and honorable, no amount of rules can do it.

[The Shoer 27979]

Heh. I come from a different family. Whenever I spot for my dad or my sister, I always hold up at least five fingers before the beep.

 

I'm kidding of course. I don't know if I'm inexperienced, unobservant, or just plain lucky, but I can't think of a time when I've seen a CAS shooter try to cheat. Of all the sports and competitions I've been a part of, this is definietly one of the most honorable. I know that there are cheats out there though and I pity them almost as much as I am disgusted by them. How sad does your life have to be for you to feel good about any success achieved through nefarious means?

 

A big thanks to all of you who came before me and who are leading the way now. More than anything it is the people who keep CAS pure and honorable, no amount of rules can do it.

 

Ben, that is because most all of those who shot at Ukiah would run the cheater out of Helldorado faster then you could say cheater, most likely just like every other SASS club.

 

I have been shooting there since about 2000 and cheating is not tolerated