Six-Shot Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I shot at a match this past weekend and one stage scenario said "through the window sweep the pistols targets twice". The five targets (18"X18") were hung on three stands approximately 15 feet away. How would you have shot them? [X] [X] [X] | | | [X] [X] | | | | / \ / \ / \ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I would have started on the lower right/middle target, then lower left, upper left, upper middle, upper right. That is if I am getting you diagram right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 as a GF, I would have gone: Lower L Lower R upper L upper Center upper R lower R lower L upper R upper Center upper L ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim No Horse Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Top right..sweep to top left...down...bottom right...repeat.... Short answer...slowly... Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-BAR #18287 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 A blackpowder shooter would start on the upper row after doping the wind direction so that the lower pair would not be blocked by the smoke from the first three shots, then repeat. Maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Like AA said. Less target blockage. Cheers! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Shooting gunfighter, leading with right: Bottom left Top left Bottom right Top Middle Top right Repeat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 1,2,3,4,5 1,2,3,4,5 ???? With no more instruction than given...... Shoot them any way you want......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassalong Hopidy Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 As a Gunfighter, like Widder (tho maybe slower). I like Possum Skinners choice but find I have more trouble alternating among vertical targets than horizontal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Like AA said. Less target blockage. Cheers! Phantom That was my thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guitar_slinger Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 draw left pistol Left to right: Top Top Top Bottom Bottom holster left pistol, draw right pistol left to right: top top top bottom bottom Don't pay attention to me though, the top shooters can shoot 5 stages in the time it takes me to shoot one but I'm getting faster. At least I no longer have to worry about having my stages disqualified due to darkness Guitar Slinger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 As a GF, I would have shot them. Lower LEFT - Lower RIGHT Upper LEFT - Upper RIGHT - Upper MIDDLE Lower RIGHT - Lower LEFT Upper RIGHT - Upper LEFT - Upper MIDDLE I generally start LH pistol lead - this gives me two on each target with no crossovers. And without a defined sweep or direction requirement - I am always going to look for the best way "for me" to shoot them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassalong Hopidy Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 As a GF, I would have shot them. Lower LEFT - Lower RIGHT Upper LEFT - Upper RIGHT - Upper MIDDLE Lower RIGHT - Lower LEFT Upper RIGHT - Upper LEFT - Upper MIDDLE I generally start LH pistol lead - this gives me two on each target with no crossovers. And without a defined sweep or direction requirement - I am always going to look for the best way "for me" to shoot them As a GF, I would have shot them. Lower LEFT - Lower RIGHT Upper LEFT - Upper RIGHT - Upper MIDDLE Lower RIGHT - Lower LEFT Upper RIGHT - Upper LEFT - Upper MIDDLE I generally start LH pistol lead - this gives me two on each target with no crossovers. And without a defined sweep or direction requirement - I am always going to look for the best way "for me" to shoot them Creeker Have watched you on YouTube and am very impressed. My only question is whether your sequence is a sweep since you are coming in from opposite ends in both passes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Creeker Have watched you on YouTube and am very impressed. My only question is whether your sequence is a sweep since you are coming in from opposite ends in both passes? Since the stage instructions didn't specify exactly with WHICH "sweep" to engage the targets, he gets to make up whatever order of engagement he wants to..."if it doesn't say 'you can't'; you can.". FWIW - Around these parts, that would get you a "P"... I guess we'll need to define "sweep" in the RO1 glossary...same as specifying that a NEVADA sweep starts on one end or the other...NOT in the middle (which, apparently, is OK at some clubs when it's NOT SPECIFIED) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-Shot Posted July 15, 2014 Author Share Posted July 15, 2014 Since the stage instructions didn't specify exactly with WHICH "sweep" to engage the targets, he gets to make up whatever order of engagement he wants to..."if it doesn't say 'you can't'; you can.". FWIW - Around these parts, that would get you a "P"... I guess we'll need to define "sweep" in the RO1 glossary...same as specifying that a NEVADA sweep starts on one end or the other...NOT in the middle (which, apparently, is OK at some clubs when it's NOT SPECIFIED) Finally! I kept checking this "thread" throughout the day to see if someone would eventually address the concept of "sweep" which is why I originally posted this "thread" in the first place. Generally "sweep" means from left to right or right to left. Seeing the scenario didn't say and the placement of the targets was the way that I diagrammed them I was wondering how others would address the concept of "sweep". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Well, I must admit that my brain went on autodumb and immediately thought of the word 'sweep' as restricting me in going 'End to End' on each row. I will also admit I considered JEDI Creekers method as actually being the best way for me to engage the stage but the word 'sweep' threw me a curve. Normally, when he word 'sweep' is used, its defined as an End to End sequence. And when the shooter has an option, the instructions will just simply state to engage the five targets once each with the first 5 shots and repeat instructions. OR, if you REALLY wanted to be creative, you could have the instructions to state : put 2 rounds on each target...NO double taps. And let the shooters have a field day of creativity. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I guess we'll need to define "sweep" in the RO1 glossary...same as specifying that a NEVADA sweep starts on one end or the other...NOT in the middle (which, apparently, is OK at some clubs when it's NOT SPECIFIED) With all due respect - Be very about careful about unintended consequences when attempting to define something that has a long standing history of being used differently. The term sweep has been used for years as a umbrella term for a sequence of shots on plates. Not all named "sweeps" begin on an end. Not all named "sweeps" use a repeating or even logic based target or round count sequence. Attempting to codify the term "sweep" as having a more tightly defined meaning or understanding at this point will simply increase confusion or "WTC' threads. IF the stage writer wants the sequence/ plates/ round count applied in a certain manner - then let them specify it. IF they don't care or they wish to explore the creativity of their shooters or if they simply fail to do their job - that is not on the shooter. As for my sequence earning me a "P" There is no requirement that a sweep engage ALL targets one after another - plenty of named "sweeps" skip over targets. I assume I am smart enough to know where the window is. No P there. 345 12 My first sweep of the targets is a 1-2-3-5-4 Directions say sweep twice - not sweep twice repeating your first sweep. My second sweep of the targets is 2-1-5-3-4 Perhaps plenty of misses - but No P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 IMO...having a "default" definition (e.g. "...unless otherwise specified...") for the generic term SWEEP would solve the "problem". As Widder stated, "engage each target 2x w/no DT's" would have the same result (and same confusion for the spotters)...but that may be the INTENT...if they aren't looking at the intended target, they might MISS a MISS (or at least be confused enough to give the shooter BoD)...throw in a BP smokescreen and the odds of a "clean run" are increased significantly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I would have started on the lower right/middle target, then lower left, upper left, upper middle, upper right. That is if I am getting you diagram right. +1 KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Another "cure" is to have the match/range conventions posted and/or read during the safety briefing so that everyone at THAT MATCH knows what is meant by the terms used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I don't see where it says all 5 targets must be engaged. I'd have probably just done a nevada sweep on the top 3 because I like that one. Start on the right with my right gun and on the left with my left gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I don't see where it says all 5 targets must be engaged. I'd have probably just done a nevada sweep on the top 3 because I like that one. Start on the right with my right gun and on the left with my left gun. You don't see "sweep the pistol targets twice" as indicating that ALL of the pistol targets must be engaged? You'd get a "P" in this neck of the woods for doing that as well. Why even have stage instructions in the first place if we need to write a 5-page explanation with NO DEFAULTS or understanding of terms?? I'm heading to the OR State match for the rest of the week... Y'all are on yer own until Monday...or maybe even Tuesday next week. (see how many pages this one goes to) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I would have started on the lower right/middle target, then lower left, upper left, upper middle, upper right. That is if I am getting you diagram right. Now the reason I would shoot it as above is not because in starts and stops on a end. As Creeker pointed out. There are lots of sweeps that do not and jump targets. Would shoot it as above because for a duelist of two handed shooter. I can not see a faster better way. To me I like to not have my next target blocked from view. So by starting on the bottom right. My next target bottom left is in clear view to swing over to. Same as the next. Top left. Clear view to swing up to and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Finally! I kept checking this "thread" throughout the day to see if someone would eventually address the concept of "sweep" which is why I originally posted this "thread" in the first place. Generally "sweep" means from left to right or right to left. Seeing the scenario didn't say and the placement of the targets was the way that I diagrammed them I was wondering how others would address the concept of "sweep". Yeah...usually if the targets are in a somewhat straight line...now...sweep a "X" target array... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 Wow Sounds like we are headed to a ever ending volume of text to fix a simple hobby A hobby put on and staffed by volunteers Intent of CAS was to have a relatively lay simple hobby, geared around old west westerns, before Hollywood block buster movies Three gun matches with old guns and attitude We were to attend with old west style guns and very limited over the counter attire at the time It worked well for decades, now we discuss if a dropped gun was intended, if it still touches a prop, perhaps?...?? It weren't dropped Geeeeese Call it like you see it on the range under those circumstances, at that given moment, do it fair for all, under current SASS rules, beginner or semipro Post the. Scores and DECISIONS made, and go on from their Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted July 15, 2014 Share Posted July 15, 2014 I wudda' shot them L-R on the top 3 and R-L on the bottom 2 if that were all the instructions given. PS If I wrote the stage that wouldn't have been all the instructions given. I think if you are a stage writer sweep "should" mean sweep from the ends like PW said but you could easily clear it up with an example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-Shot Posted July 16, 2014 Author Share Posted July 16, 2014 I've been waitin' for someone to ask me how I shot them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Hey Six-Shot, how did you shot em? ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Six-Shot Posted July 16, 2014 Author Share Posted July 16, 2014 left pistol: top left, bottom left, bottom middle, top middle, top right right pistol: top right, top middle, bottom middle, bottom left, top left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Dan Dawkins Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Since the stage instructions didn't specify exactly with WHICH "sweep" to engage the targets, he gets to make up whatever order of engagement he wants to..."if it doesn't say 'you can't'; you can.". FWIW - Around these parts, that would get you a "P"... I guess we'll need to define "sweep" in the RO1 glossary...same as specifying that a NEVADA sweep starts on one end or the other...NOT in the middle (which, apparently, is OK at some clubs when it's NOT SPECIFIED) My first thoughts unless otherwise clearly defined. Double tap sweep TL>BL>TC>BC>TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spades Hanlin SASS#66204 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 as a GF, I would have gone: Lower L Lower R upper L upper Center upper R lower R lower L upper R upper Center upper L ..........Widder +1 Spades H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Bullweed Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 I shoot GF and prefer to split my pistols. I always try to lead with my left gun. BL - BR BL - BR TL - TR TL - TR TC - TC I think that this ahs the least amount of travel for my guns. I suspect it would be faster than I could shoot it two-handed, one gun at a time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo Bill Mathewson, 37826 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Being a double cocker Gunfighter my mind works in the following way if the targets are not spread more than about 45 degrees from left to right. Left Gun top left Right Gun top center Right Gun top right Left Gun bottom left Right Gun bottom right Left Gun top left Left Gun top center Right Gun top right Left Gun bottom left Right Gun bottom right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spades Hanlin SASS#66204 Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 Well Creeker I have to admitt I too was under the impression that I start on one end sweep 1-5 and repeat... I'm afraid if I did'nt at the clubs I shoot at I would surely get a big fat ( P ).. I do see your point but I know what the boys and girls at my local clubs would have done if I tried an out of the boxer on this one.... Heck I have a tough time not havin them try to give me a P when I do it right.. Seems that no pause between guns thing really messes them up sometimes.. Spades H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted July 16, 2014 Share Posted July 16, 2014 You don't see "sweep the pistol targets twice" as indicating that ALL of the pistol targets must be engaged? You'd get a "P" in this neck of the woods for doing that as well. Why even have stage instructions in the first place if we need to write a 5-page explanation with NO DEFAULTS or understanding of terms?? Nope. I checked the description again and I sure don't see the word all. It says sweep, and nevada sweep happens to be the only sweep I know. Don't wanna get into the intent of the stage writer, but I'm pretty sure if they meant all, they coulda written all. Ink don't cost so much that the word would break the bank. Coupla months ago we had tree with 5 targets on it set up a lot like the ones in the OP, but reversed. I can't remember the exact stage instructions, but they only told us to shoot the bottom 3 targets. We were the first posse to shoot it, so we couldn't see what anyone else had done. We spent about 5 minutes trying to interpret it so that we could put lead on all 5 targets before we just went with the double nevada sweep that was described. What I learned from that incident is that just because a target is out there doesn't mean it has to be shot. And for the record, I absolutely would not have gotten a P in any neck of the woods. Click the spoiler to find out why Cause I would have asked the TO if he thought that was acceptable before I said my line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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