Whose idea was this?

[Hashknife Cowboy]

I recently traded for bunch of .45 ACP once fired brass and all was looking right. Come to discover that, about 25% of them use small pistol primers and I learned this seating large pistol primers into a small pistol hole. Nothing exploded, just rather annoying. The guilty brass is Federal and CCI. Just pay close attention.....

 

 

 

Where have I been? Thanks for the education Pards....

[KingSnake]

Old news.

It's been showing up for a couple years now. I just bought 1000 rounds of range brass this weekend. 167 small primer.

I sort all 45acp brass unless I'm just out practicing by myself.

Probably just gonna get worse.

[twelve mile REB]

Yes it will unless of course we make it a MDQ to shoot small primer 45 acp

12

[jrswanson1]

That and someone has the bright idea of crimping .38 Special primers. What is wrong with people?

[G W Wade]

got a batch of Winchester with small primer. heard this was started to provide green ammo for range use. mine was ww non toxic

[Bugler]

Just make sure to sort your brass.......no big deal.

[Doc McCoy, SASS #8381]

I know I should sort it, but instead I've learned the feel of trying to put a large primer in a small pocket and don't push too hard. I set it aside and when I have enough I'll load them and use them at some lost brass location. That could be a practice session, if I ever get one!

Mine have all been Speer.

[Tom Bullweed]

I have heard two theories about .45 ACP with small primers:

* some Bullseye shooters believe that the small primer brass provides more consistent velocities (not sure why)

* some people believe that small primers created fewer toxic gasses, especially in indoor ranges (I have seen more information about this than #1)

I am okay with the small primer .45ACP. It allows me to use up small pistol primers. I sold off all of my .38/.357 guns and moved to .38-40, .44 Spec and .45s last year.

[J. Frank Norfleet]

Before you all dump the small primer brass in the trash, pm me I'll take it off your hands.

L.

 

Comes from non toxic ammo, some even have NT stamped on them.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Small Primers in 45 Auto. Purely a violation of the SAAMI standard for 45 ACP (45 Auto).

 

No speculation needed on why - Non-Toxic primers are not available in Large Pistol Primer size. To make ammo that contains no lead requires this new non-toxic primer. That no-lead ammo can then be shot on indoor ranges to meet the approximately 100 times cleaner lead-in-air regulations that went into effect a few years ago, without having to tear out and install new expensive super-ventilation systems. (The same regulations that shut down the Doe Run primary lead smelter this winter.) So, to let police departments and other shooters continue to use indoor pistol ranges with now substandard ventilation systems, several manufacturers have started making ammo with the small pistol, non-leaded primers and composite copper, brass and fully-plastic-coated slugs. CCI, Speer, Blazer and Federal are the major brand names on these cartridges.

 

Great goals, I suppose. However, it an absolute abomination of the standards for that particular cartridge which have been in effect for 104 years now.

 

CCI's tech support folks informed me a couple of years ago, that their use of small primers now occurs in both non-toxic ammo, and in their regular lines of .45 Auto, too. They cannot tell the public which lots of their ammo will be using small pistol primers. What incompetence. They said, "well, open the box before you buy and check it yourself."

 

Here's hoping wiser heads prevail and some primer manufacturer can figure out how economically to make a non-toxic large pistol primer that will ignite reliably.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

In fact, I'd bet someone will be providing a mechanized reamer to open primer pockets back out to Large Pistol size in the near future.

[Orion Red]

Here's the skinny I got direct from a Federal rep. Large contract purchasers, ie. Police departments, wanted a more cost effective alternative for training use only.

 

Not sure if it's greener, I'll leave that for others to argue. But it sure is cheaper when you buy ammo 500,000 rounds at a time.

[J. Frank Norfleet]

Here's hoping wiser heads prevail and some primer manufacturer can figure out how economically to make a non-toxic large pistol primer that will ignite reliably.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

OR, here's hoping that they will eventually switch over to all small primer for the 45 ACP!

L.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Here's the skinny I got direct from a Federal rep. Large contract purchasers, ie. Police departments, wanted a more cost effective alternative for training use only.

 

Not sure if it's greener, I'll leave that for others to argue. But it sure is cheaper when you buy ammo 500,000 rounds at a time.

 

The non-toxic primers are not "cost effective" on their own. Numbers I've seen show them 20% more expensive than standard primers.

 

"Non-toxic" bullets are not what contributes to cost effectiveness either - almost all of them are more expensive than standard practice range slugs, sometimes 3 times more expensive.

 

Now, Large purchase volumes - sure. Always saves money to purchase in bulk. And the bulk buys are possible because the non-toxic ammo can be shot on any range, well ventilated or not, modern or ancient. But, large volume purchases were possible with standard range ammo, too!

 

It really IS all about compliance with new Federal air pollution standards for shooting ranges! Don't kid yourself to think this change came about to make ammo more cheaply. Nor do Californians hunt with cheaper ammo now just to protect the condor. Now, are the tighter air pollution and lead "contamination in the field" standards justified based on their contribution to better health? THAT is a WHOLE different question.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Warden Callaway]

I wonder how long it'll be before the small primers will start showing up in other cases?

 

I think it was an article in American Rifleman about the Army adopting new "green" ammo. I'm suspicious it's a first step in outlawing lead as a bullet or component of a bullet. It'll make ammo far more expensive and more difficult for the reloader.

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

If small pistol primers work in fat cases, why did we have two sizes in the first place?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Big cases normally need a larger volume of priming compound to ensure a good consistent burn. You will not see a small pistol primer in 44 mag, nor should you ever see one in .45 Colt, .454 Casull, nor small rifle primers in rifle cartridges where you are trying to ignite 40-80 grains of smokeless.

 

Small pistol primers may "almost" work in the .45 ACP case (data I've seen shows lower pressures and velocities with SP than with LP primers), but not much beyond those 5-8 grains of powder in a bigger volume case.

 

And, "in the first place", I believe all the primers before about 1910 were large primers, and interchangeable between rifle and pistol. Not until folks started into the itty bitty pistol cartridges (like .32 and .25 ACP) did ammo companies need or make small primers. The original .38 specials were made with large primer pockets.

 

For another read on this from what seems to be a reliable source, see:

 

http://www.shootersforum.com/handgun-cartridges/78753-small-pistor-primers-45-acp.html

 

(Remember - not my article, so take it with a grain of lead salts)

 

Note this article indicates that the non-toxic .45 auto cases made with small primer pockets may have larger than normal flash holes, which may in fact raise pressures above normal .45 loads in large primer pocketed cases! And that the non-toxic primers can't be made yet in large sizes because of problems with too much of a more powerful compound causing peening damage to the breech (bolt) around the firing pin. All this tells me that using .45 auto cases with the small primer pockets, whether you reload the case with non-toxic primer or regular primer, may have some subtle problems and even could damage some guns over time. As well as being a pain to encounter while loading.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

[J. Frank Norfleet]

My small primer and large primers chrono identical. Could be because all my primers are Wolf or Tula, both pretty hot. Case volume will have an effect. Hence 45 GAP (small primer) averages 50 fps above 45 ACP. That is why I shoot magnum primers in my 45 Colt.

L

[Nasty Newt # 7365]

Thanks, Joe.

[J. Frank Norfleet]

Joe, finally got time to read and digest the link you posted. Thanks, its a good link with lots of information. What bothered me was that your conclusions don't match the information in the link. From the link (typos unchanged):

 

"The last and mabe most important consideration is a condition known to insiders as "Breech Peening." That is physical damage to some pistol breech faces caused by lead-free primers using DDNP as the initiator.

"The pressure generated inside a DDNP primer is momentarily much higher than the ultimate chamber pressure. The breech peeing can move enough metal on the breech face to interfere with firing pin movement, or worse yet, to lock the firing pin in the forward position.

"The better semi-auto pistols have heat-treated and properly hardened slides/breech faces and have never experienced the breech peening problem. Some of the lower grade pistols have 'soft' breech faces. They complain "There is nothing wrong with our pistols - the ammo has changed." Maybe, but those manufacturers that don't change with the times will fall by the wayside.

 

The peening occurs with DDNP primers, i.e. factory non-toxic ammo. There is no reason to suspect or assume that regular small primers will have that same momentary flash of pressure before the powder ignites. Just think about the number of shooters running a 1911 in .40 S&W. Now that is pressure! The "breech peening" warning is for using factory lead free ammo in cheap pistols.

 

Next the larger flash hole doesn't increase the pressure, it decreases it. Again from the link:

 

"Some Shooters (but probably no gunwriters) have noticed that the flash holes on shellcases destined to be loaded with DDNP primers are much larger than 'standard' flash holes. That is to relieve the 'primer pressure' quicker to minimize breech peening.

 

Reaming out the flash holes is nothing new. We used to do it when I shot High-Power. It gives a more consistent ignition. If your primers are backing out, the first place to look is at your load. Flat primers indicate a load that is too hot. At WBAS power factors never had one move. One final quote:

 

"It is not practical for an ammunition company to produce and inventory the same shellcase with different size primer pockets and flash holes so they standardize on the one that works with both lead-free primers and conventional primers.

 

Bottom line, .45 ACP works with a small primer and the ammo companies have standardized what works.

 

But if you are still worried. PM me and I will take all that small primer brass off your hands. I have a 5 gallon bucket full that I have reloaded 3 times and will gladly add to it!

Lorimer

 

 

P.S. I have found that the .45 ACP small primer shells are much easier to reload than the large primer. But, I never take small primer loads to a match, only large primer. Keeps everyone happy, happy, happy!

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Well, that author's conclusion about enlarged flash holes when using the new DDNP primers flies counter to everything else I have EVER read about large flash holes. Well versed ballisticians warn about enlarging flash holes (past just a uniform diameter from SAAMI specs), because that RAISES pressures due to more of the smokeless powder getting lit off instantly. So, whether the non-toxic DDNP priming compound raises pressures and damages recoil shields and bolts if the hole is too small, or the powder raises pressures or sets the primer back and locks up revolvers because a primer flash hole is too large, it could be a problem either way.

 

In other words, its a problem. And one we don't have with large primers made with standard compound in a standard case with a standard flash hole. There are reasons for standards - one is that you don't have to worry about all the weird things that can happen as a case of powder lights off and you are not in the "standard" realm.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Assassin]

Big cases normally need a larger volume of priming compound to ensure a good consistent burn. You will not see a small pistol primer in 44 mag, nor should you ever see one in .45 Colt, .454 Casull, nor small rifle primers in rifle cartridges where you are trying to ignite 40-80 grains of smokeless.

 

Small pistol primers may "almost" work in the .45 ACP case (data I've seen shows lower pressures and velocities with SP than with LP primers), but not much beyond those 5-8 grains of powder in a bigger volume case.

 

And, "in the first place", I believe all the primers before about 1910 were large primers, and interchangeable between rifle and pistol. Not until folks started into the itty bitty pistol cartridges (like .32 and .25 ACP) did ammo companies need or make small primers. The original .38 specials were made with large primer pockets.

 

For another read on this from what seems to be a reliable source, see:

 

http://www.shootersforum.com/handgun-cartridges/78753-small-pistor-primers-45-acp.html

 

(Remember - not my article, so take it with a grain of lead salts)

 

Note this article indicates that the non-toxic .45 auto cases made with small primer pockets may have larger than normal flash holes, which may in fact raise pressures above normal .45 loads in large primer pocketed cases! And that the non-toxic primers can't be made yet in large sizes because of problems with too much of a more powerful compound causing peening damage to the breech (bolt) around the firing pin. All this tells me that using .45 auto cases with the small primer pockets, whether you reload the case with non-toxic primer or regular primer, may have some subtle problems and even could damage some guns over time. As well as being a pain to encounter while loading.

 

 

Good luck, GJ

.454 Casull uses small rfile primers.

[John Boy]

I wonder how long it'll be before the small primers will start showing up in other cases?

BPCR shooters would relish the return of small rifle pockets. There was a time when manufacturers made them.

The reasoning for small rifle pockets is shooting black powder with a SR & SP primer creates less brisance which aids the BP gases to be more uniform