Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I swear,Master Blaster, you could disprove quantum physics. How did you ever resist the urge to look down the barrel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I swear,Master Blaster, you could disprove quantum physics. How did you ever resist the urge to look down the barrel? Funny you brought the subject of looking down the barrel.... Saw a pard, at a SASS match, gander down (near the front part of the cycliner of a ruger) the front of the cylinders to see if he had shot all five,,,by seeing if there was a lead bullet still visible in one of the chambers in the cylinder? After a click, bang,click,click,,,,,,, event. I believe he was shooting GF style. Said he did it all the time at home. BTW, he was mindful not to break the 170 rule and the hammer was down. Wasn't that thougtful of him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustang Gregg Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 :FlagAm: Looking across the front edge of the cylinder for bullet noses? Damn, I never done that, but that's be too close to a 170 situation for me. Mustang Gregg BTW: Our outfit always cycles our long guns at the LT to show clear to the LTO before we ever dump ammo out on the table. It don't hurt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 This thread has been very entertaining. Once saw a shooter blow down the barrel of his vaqueros from the muzzle nonetheless at the unload table to try and dislodge a squib. Same shooter writes articles for the chronicle giving advice on reloading. Kinda ironic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Funny you brought the subject of looking down the barrel.... Saw a pard, at a SASS match, gander down (near the front part of the cycliner of a ruger) the front of the cylinders to see if he had shot all five,,,by seeing if there was a lead bullet still visible in one of the chambers in the cylinder? After a click, bang,click,click,,,,,,, event. I believe he was shooting GF style. Said he did it all the time at home. BTW, he was mindful not to break the 170 rule and the hammer was down. Wasn't that thougtful of him? This thread has been very entertaining. Once saw a shooter blow down the barrel of his vaqueros from the muzzle nonetheless at the unload table to try and dislodge a squib. Same shooter writes articles for the chronicle giving advice on reloading. Kinda ironic. Wouldn't both of these be sweeping somebody with the gun ... namely yourself? Back to the topic, I am 100% sure whether I have one in the chamber, I don't need to dry fire to prove it. If the time ever comes that I make a mistake on that front, then and only then will I consider adding the dry fire into my routine. I understand some more 'experienced' people might lose focus and not be as positive as I am of the state of a gun they are handling. Maybe for them it makes sense. But in my own experience, I've seen more ADs when someone thought they were dry firing than from all other circumstances combined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Buddy of mine's unit over in the sandbox had SOP that when hey returned to base, they cleared rifle and pistol, pointed muzzel into a bullet trap and pulled trigger. Even with all their experience, he said that ocassionally one went bang. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Mulo Vaquero, SASS #55942 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Funny you brought the subject of looking down the barrel.... Saw a pard, at a SASS match, gander down (near the front part of the cycliner of a ruger) the front of the cylinders to see if he had shot all five,,,by seeing if there was a lead bullet still visible in one of the chambers in the cylinder? After a click, bang,click,click,,,,,,, event. I believe he was shooting GF style. Said he did it all the time at home. BTW, he was mindful not to break the 170 rule and the hammer was down. Wasn't that thougtful of him? Saw this same guy. Ignorance of safe gun handling is no excuse. Should've been SDQ. Failure to manage safe muzzle direction, even though no individual is swept, is grounds for Stage Disqualification, and for repeated offenses, Match Disqualification (RO1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 25, 2014 - Insult, start of argument. Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 25, 2014 - Insult, start of argument. Wouldn't both of these be sweeping somebody with the gun ... namely yourself? Back to the topic, I am 100% sure whether I have one in the chamber, I don't need to dry fire to prove it. If the time ever comes that I make a mistake on that front, then and only then will I consider adding the dry fire into my routine. I understand some more 'experienced' people might lose focus and not be as positive as I am of the state of a gun they are handling. Maybe for them it makes sense. But in my own experience, I've seen more ADs when someone thought they were dry firing than from all other circumstances combined. What? Then.. What again? Read the SHB, then ROI, then ROII, then do it again. Both the instances you referenced were unsafe to say the least, but there is no rule against sweeping yourself, and the second instance isn't even that. To state that more experienced shooters whose safety routines differ from yours do so to compensate for inferior focus compared to your own supreme state is condescending to say the least and reflects a level of hubris unworthy of any cowboy, particularly one whose SASS number is six digits long. Link to comment
Jack Houston # 35508 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 too many rules!!!!!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 This thread has been very entertaining. Once saw a shooter blow down the barrel of his vaqueros from the muzzle nonetheless at the unload table to try and dislodge a squib. Same shooter writes articles for the chronicle giving advice on reloading. Kinda ironic. How about the person that uses human air pressure to blow out a stuck SG wad from one of the barrels on a SXS,,, at the ULT, of course? Seen it done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 How about the person that uses human air pressure to blow out a stuck SG wad from one of the barrels on a SXS,,, at the ULT, of course? Seen it done. Did you get her phone number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Did you get her phone number? That's funny right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Did you get her phone number? I presume you had it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 Wasn't it nice of Fillmore to stir this pot and take our minds off the of new old new new rule? Well, I'm not going to EOT. Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Wow I proudly do it, safely as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ventura Slim, SASS #35690 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 You do the whole show clear, close the action and pull the trigger at the end of a stage at modern events with the pistol. We do not do that in cowboy with long guns, we leave open when we leave the stage and go to the unloading table and have a second set of eyes see the guns are clear. At the loading table in cowboy you better come with the action open on the long gun and of course you have to close the action and drop the hammer to load it. I guess it does not matter if you you thumb it down to save the metal or dry fire as long is its pointed at the berm and safe. Hey is the heat of summer getting us riled up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elk Creek LeMieux Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Buddy of mine's unit over in the sandbox had SOP that when hey returned to base, they cleared rifle and pistol, pointed muzzel into a bullet trap and pulled trigger. Even with all their experience, he said that ocassionally one went bang. We called them test fire barrels. I hated them, and hated being anywhere near them when people were clearing their weapons. I can understand the logic behind showing clear and dry firing, at CAS matches, with these type of guns. However, never once in 15 years of carrying guns for a living have I cleared and dry fired when there was an alternative for the given weapon I was clearing. I've always been a firm believer in the "don't play with it, and it won't accidentally go off" rule. I don't think dry firing falls into that category of risk management. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 25, 2014 - Response to Insult Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 25, 2014 - Response to Insult What? Then.. What again? Read the SHB, then ROI, then ROII, then do it again. Both the instances you referenced were unsafe to say the least, but there is no rule against sweeping yourself, and the second instance isn't even that. To state that more experienced shooters whose safety routines differ from yours do so to compensate for inferior focus compared to your own supreme state is condescending to say the least and reflects a level of hubris unworthy of any cowboy, particularly one whose SASS number is six digits long. OK hold on, 2 things here. Maybe you're very experienced and lost focus, or maybe my ears are too wet and I couldn't hear correctly. But the second example was someone literally putting his mouth on the barrel of his gun and blowing on it to dislodge a squib, and you say that one is definitely not sweeping yourself? Gun in your mouth is less of a sweep than gun next to your lips where it's probably only pointed at your nose. Let me get my big chief tablet and #2 pencil and start taking notes. And I really appreciate you setting me straight on the cowboy way and my unacceptable levels of hubris with your tiny little sass number. I, like I'm sure everyone else here did not even touch a firearm of any kind until the SASS badge arrived in the mail. So that number really means something, and my opinion on gun safety clearly does not. I see you're about 10k lower than me, so I'll give you a special page in the aforementioned tablet. Earlier today on the wire a guy said his wife just joined and her number is 3k less than mine. So I'm not exactly sure WHAT can be inferred from the number, but whatever it is, I trust that it's important. Unless the Territorial Governors vote that it's not, then it won't be. Unless the Wild Bunch over-rules them, then it will be again. Link to comment
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 25, 2014 - No reason given Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 25, 2014 - No reason given OK hold on, 2 things here. Maybe you're very experienced and lost focus, or maybe my ears are too wet and I couldn't hear correctly. But the second example was someone literally putting his mouth on the barrel of his gun and blowing on it to dislodge a squib, and you say that one is definitely not sweeping yourself? Gun in your mouth is less of a sweep than gun next to your lips where it's probably only pointed at your nose. Let me get my big chief tablet and #2 pencil and start taking notes. And I really appreciate you setting me straight on the cowboy way and my unacceptable levels of hubris with your tiny little sass number. I, like I'm sure everyone else here did not even touch a firearm of any kind until the SASS badge arrived in the mail. So that number really means something, and my opinion on gun safety clearly does not. I see you're about 10k lower than me, so I'll give you a special page in the aforementioned tablet. Earlier today on the wire a guy said his wife just joined and her number is 3k less than mine. So I'm not exactly sure WHAT can be inferred from the number, but whatever it is, I trust that it's important. Unless the Territorial Governors vote that it's not, then it won't be. Unless the Wild Bunch over-rules them, then it will be again. While I can't condone sticking a barrel in your mouth, just one point. There is nothing in the rules that prohibits "sweeping" oneself. If there was, CAS as we no it, could not exist. Fillmore Link to comment
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 This is getting out of hand. I hid some posts. Cool it or I will close the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fillmore Coffins, SASS #7884 Posted June 25, 2014 Author Share Posted June 25, 2014 This is getting out of hand. I hid some posts. Cool it or I will close the thread. Fillmore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I guess offense was taken at my post where none was offered (the first one that is, the one that was deleted might be a different story because by then I had taken offense). I would like to add some more words and hopefully explain myself. What I was doing was reaching across the divide and showing I understood why people would want to dry fire. Experienced means just that, experienced. I put quotes around it as a joke because I knew the word could also be taken as meaning old. But I felt the context clues in the rest of the paragraph would be enough to tell people that I meant "one who has performed in many previous rodeos". It is a fact of life that as people get experienced with an activity, they get sloppy. It happens with all activities, but with some we exercise extra dilligence because it can be dangerous. Shooting and reloading are 2 that come immediately to mind. I was actually being nice by saying 'lose focus' instead of 'sloppy'. (BTW, don't read anything into the quotes around those words either) Fact still remains that in my experience, the vast majority of ADs happen when people think they are dry firing. No one has disputed this, so at this point I am assuming it's a common experience. And I don't care what you call it, if you didn't intend the gun to fire and it fires, then it's an AD. Put whatever color lipstick you want on that pig, it's still a pig. Have you ever heard of the safety pyramid? It's based on work done by a fella named Heinrich who was an insurance guy back in the 30's. Basically, he says there's a ratio of accidents to serious accidents. I think the numbers he used said that for every fatality, you had about 30 minor injuries and about 300 accidents without injury leading up to it. I doubt the exact ratios apply in every situation, but I think the principle does. The more accidents we have, the higher the liklihood of an injury or fatality. The thrust of his method was to minimize those lower tiered accidents without injury so they didn't lead to anything more serious. Before you dismiss the ideas for being outdated, realize that some pretty big companies still subscribe to this premise. He changed the way we think about workplace safety, and as a result industrial accidents are way down. An AD is one of those accidents without injury, and that's why I don't dry fire to make sure it's unloaded. Tripping and falling on a stage is also in that category, and we should be working to eliminate those accidents too. To be clear, I don't think any less of a person who wants to dry fire to prove empty, it's just how they were raised. It's good people disagreeing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Why dispute an assertion that is at best simply spurious and vacuous? Here's a simple fact: if you ever want to get good at this game (and most shooting games) then you'll spend HOURS and HOURS and DAYS and MONTHS dry-firing your blooming self silly; breaking gun parts from time to time and just basically developing a nervous tick or two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I don't do hours of dry firing, although I will admit I have shot (dry firing lest anybody misunderstand!) the clock and every candle on our firepace mantle a few hundred times! That being said, while I have no problem with somebody just puling the trigger at the LT, I have always racked my rifle twice, while looking in the innards to make sure their aint nothig in there that is not supposed to be, then I thumb the hammer down. Not even sure why, its just what I do. Your way aint wrong or stupid, and neither is my way. I think the important theng is we develp a routime and PAY ATTENTION to what we are doing. Its so easy to make a mistake that would haunt us the rest of our lives were we to have an UD that injured or killed somebody. Complacancy is the enemy, which is what I think Ramblin Gambler is sayig also. My uncle, who started me out on gun handling/safety, taught me that if you pick it up, its your resopnsibility. There are no accidents with guns. An example of "complancancy" happened to me a few months back. Shot a stage, went to ULT, unloaded, spun the cylinder for myself and the ULTO, he said "clear" holstered and went on my way. When I got to the next stage, as I went to load, there sits a piece of brass in one of my revolvers. We both missed it. but, it was not an accident, it was complacancy, or lazyness on both of our parts. I took my stage DQ with no complaints, and vowed to never let that happen again. Now, I count the brass as I take them out, look for myself, show the ULTO, then look again before I holster them. Develop a routine, stick to it, and pay attention every time you have a gun in your hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 This is getting out of hand. I hid some posts. Cool it or I will close the thread. You could send them to the IRS..................then they would just disappear J R-E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 A few weeks ago, I witnessed an AD at the loading table by someone that did just that,, just pull the trigger.. second incident I've witnessed in my SASS life. Yep, there was an unknown live round under the hammer from some fubar from the previous stage that was not diagnosed correctly, nor caught. So it can happen WOAH ... I sure hope that the Posse Leader walked straight over to the Unloading Officer and there was a severe arse kicking that took place! If the PL didn't - they need a severe boot in the butt also Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Humans are a creature of habit. If you just pull the trigger to drop an external hammered gun at the SASS loading table (pointed into berm/safe direction),, which is safe for the situation, the chances are greater you will do the same (habit),, just pull the trigger on an exposed/internal hammered firearm ... absent mindedly, at home, or whereever else you may decide to 'drop the hammer' of your firearm. An example is when you want to clear your PPW black gun at home. I understand that you can not lower 'most',,,( decocker mechanism is the exception), internal hammered firearm w/o assistance from a thumb, but must pull the trigger and let the hammer fall. The bottom line is, perhaps a person can swing the percentile to fewer gun related fubars by changing their methodology that would fit all/most gun handling situations,,, be on on the range or at home. Just perhaps if a shooter gets into the habit of lowering the hammer with thumb assist at SASS matches, where most of us do the vast majority of our shooting, then when the semi auto gun is brought into discussion, the shooter may pause before subconsiously realizing there is no external hammer to control. A great idea to visually look into the action of the lever rifle to see that the chamber is empty as the bolt closes. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 You betcha CAS to me is a game. I don't go out and use the trigger time to train for what I would do in a scenario away from a CAS match. Standing flatfooted while engaging a threat is just one of them. There are things that I would do in a real world scenario that I am not allowed to do in a SASS match. Moving while engaging a target is just one of them. Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Humans are a creature of habit. If you just pull the trigger to drop an external hammered gun at the SASS loading table (pointed into berm/safe direction),, which is safe for the situation, the chances are greater you will do the same (habit),, just pull the trigger on an exposed/internal hammered firearm ... absent mindedly, at home, or whereever else you may decide to 'drop the hammer' of your firearm. An example is when you want to clear your PPW black gun at home. I understand that you can not lower 'most',,,( decocker mechanism is the exception), internal hammered firearm w/o assistance from a thumb, but must pull the trigger and let the hammer fall. The bottom line is, perhaps a person can swing the percentile to fewer gun related fubars by changing their methodology that would fit all/most gun handling situations,,, be on on the range or at home. Just perhaps if a shooter gets into the habit of lowering the hammer with thumb assist at SASS matches, where most of us do the vast majority of our shooting, then when the semi auto gun is brought into discussion, the shooter may pause before subconsiously realizing there is no external hammer to control. A great idea to visually look into the action of the lever rifle to see that the chamber is empty as the bolt closes. Just a thought. Wouldn't the habit of decocking then transfer to the CAS firing line where it is not allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Yes...that whole standing flat-footed in SASS is definitely something to train away both in real life threats as well as other shooting sports. Great points here that all underscore the need to keep the eyes on the chamber and carrier when cycling/clearing and the pointy end under control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted June 25, 2014 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Wouldn't the habit of decocking then transfer to the CAS firing line where it is not allowed. decocking the hammer on CAS 'firing line', or where the shooting takes place is allowed under very limited circumstances & conditions,,,, as in an actual verbal acknowlegement from the TO to do so .... Hmmm, CAS firing line is defined between LT & ULT and it is rather allowed at the two tables but not up where the shooting takes place,,,, or so I believe but could be wrong. But that is another topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 You betcha CAS to me is a game. I don't go out and use the trigger time to train for what I would do in a scenario away from a CAS match. Standing flatfooted while engaging a threat is just one of them. There are things that I would do in a real world scenario that I am not allowed to do in a SASS match. Moving while engaging a target is just one of them. Just saying. No argument 'intented'. Everytime a person 'practices', dryfiring or live firing or shooting event partisipation, any time,,,,hmmm, for a SASS event or to improve your SASS performance, you are 'training' your mind & body. Hopefully it (all the practice time) translates to subconscious brain/muscle response. Standing flat footed and stationary??? yes, because that what SASS demands. Hmmmm,,, subconscious 'habit'. THAT habit,,,, whichever is the strongest (depends on what you practice) , will transfer over to other stress conditions,,, such as a shit-hit-the-fan real life threat condition. Just a thought.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 No argument 'intented'. Everytime a person 'practices', dryfiring or live firing or shooting event partisipation, any time,,,,hmmm, for a SASS event or to improve your SASS performance, you are 'training' your mind & body. Hopefully it (all the practice time) translates to subconscious brain/muscle response. Standing flat footed and stationary??? yes, because that what SASS demands. Hmmmm,,, subconscious 'habit'. THAT habit,,,, whichever is the strongest (depends on what you practice) , will transfer over to other stress conditions,,, such as a shit-hit-the-fan real life threat condition. Just a thought.. If some badd guy breaches my house I will react with sub 20 second response of 24 rounds down range several big close targets (if there is more than one perp) Oh we'll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blastmaster Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 If some badd guy breaches my house I will react with sub 20 second response of 24 rounds down range several big close targets (if there is more than one perp) Oh we'll Flat footed, of course, cause that is what you do best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elk Creek LeMieux Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Flat footed, of course, cause that is what you do best. I haven't seen very many people stand still when they're being shot at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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