Possum Skinner, SASS#60697 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Jack, That award the new rule twice removed. Under the newest rule, you will get a minimum of a MSV if your action is not open and you fire the next gun. Possum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 After looking at Pale Wolf's clarifications to the synopsis I think I am finally clear. If a long gun is closed or closes you have to open it before firing the next gun. Period. If you don't there is an MSV. If a long gun is closed at the end of the stage you get the MSV for the closed long gun plus an additional MSV if there is an empty in the gun. So, the new rule only saves the shooter from a second MSV if a long gun is closed and is found empty when opened. The only time there would be a no call is if the long gun closed because of prop failure. My head hurts. Is this what most of you are understanding? Yes, this is the way I understand it too. But really we are back to exactly where we were before the "vote" and the only thing that changed was we now have a definition of open and closed as well as a suggestion that nobody but the shooter should touch a closed long gun. Oh and they managed to make the existing rules twice as hard to understand. Larsen, I read this the same way you do. But why is your written interpretation so much easier to understand? I had to read and reread PW's synopsis several times, parsing each word (it seems like), to figure this out. And then you have to read the whole thing again. Manassas, if the long gun closes (for whatever reason), you buy the minor safety as soon as you fire the next gun. The only reason to go back and check after the stage is to see if you buy an additional penalty for brass/rounds in the long gun. Laz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 "Closed" is defined as "in battery". Seems the Long Gun will need to be physically inspected to verify "closed", as defined. Any visual or physical observation that the long gun is not "in battery" means it is "open". Thus, only a MSV if it is not empty or SDQ if live round in chamber. Of course the practical problem is the TO has to make an instantaneous decision on whether to advise the shooter that his gun is closed. In most cases the TO cannot see the bolt, he sees the lever. This rule really is no different from earlier versions as far as determining whether a gun is open or closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Well, at least they got rid of having the TO analyze whether the shooter closed the long gun intentionally or accidentally. Now it doesn't matter. So in what way is the new-new rule any different than the old rule (pre January)? As a TO, I still need to call the shooter back with "close your lever" if he tries to move to the next gun. And if the gun is closed when the next gun is fired, the shooter buys a MSV. Plus any penalty for brass/rounds still in the gun. We do have some additional definitions, as Smokestack said. Am I missing something here? Laz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 So we are back to where we started and the TG vote was a waste of time. Does that about cover it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Longshot, SASS #44254 Life Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 So we are back to where we started and the TG vote was a waste of time. Does that about cover it? That's my read, Al. Laz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Not really a waste of time as it did shed some light on the illusion of us having some say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I'll be honesty wichya...I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO lost right now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I'll be honesty wichya...I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO lost right now... You ain't alone pard best I can tell we are right back where we were before the TGs even voted J R-E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Old rules with a small modicum of forgiveness in the event of a prop failure. Bottom line restage the gun open and empty to avoid any issues.....same as we always did prior to December. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Old rules with a small modicum of forgiveness in the event of a prop failure. Bottom line restage the gun open and empty to avoid any issues.....same as we always did prior to December. Stan Between this thread and the two others on this topic there have been over 20,000 views. I hope most of them have figured this out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Follow up question. I open the action and set the gun down, the lever closes, say 1/2 way. As I run to next location, R.O. sees rifle and thinks it is closed. R.O. says to open action. I run back and see that the action is NOT closed.... Now what? So I stop and before touching the gun, point out to the R.O. that the action is open. Now what... (I don't like reshoots when I've shot the stage well.) End results: 1. We have not made the R.O. job any easier. 2. Continue to risk a major safety issue to address a non-issue. Great job!!! P.S. The way to avoid a Minor Safety is leaving the action open and empty BEFORE you fire the next gun or go to Unloading table. If action is closed, there is a remote possibility of a prop failure instead of a Minor Safety penalty. There is no longer any "if it was empty = no call" statements in the latest books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Actually, the 1/2 open lever situation is no different that the pre-summit rule. Would seem to be TO interference and indicate the TO needs an RO refresher course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I'll be honesty wichya...I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO lost right now... Me to. And a little ticked off that the TG vote was a waste of time if Tex is going to step in and just change it back. Makes me glad I did not give them my money for the convention or EOT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manassas Jack Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Your right...I'm wrong. Time to pass the timer. I can't keep up anymore. I'll be at the unloading table keeping it simple...guns empty, thank you very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steeldust Dan, SASS #2631Life Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I have been following this issue with a mixture of curiousity and disbelief. How many threads have there been? I agree with Phantom, Anvil Al and others, that the TG discussion and vote in December was a complete waste of time. I find this extremely ironic considering that SASS as a corporate entity is investigating the feasibility of becoming a not-for-profit organization. I remember one of the statements concerning this shift said there is discussion about a change in goverance for SASS should this change come about. Wow, who would want to spend their time and money to serve on a board if a small group (theWild Bunch) as executive board has the final say in all matters? Sorry to possibly hijack this thread, but maybe the Wild Bunch should just state they run SASS in all aspects and we pay a participation fee. We are not Members. We have no say. There is no debate nor voting on rules. It is what it is and if we don't like it then we should take our guns and go play somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Dog Jack, SASS #77862 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 I'll be honesty wichya...I'm SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO lost right now... Me to. And a little ticked off that the TG vote was a waste of time if Tex is going to step in and just change it back. Makes me glad I did not give them my money for the convention or EOT. And I am soooooooooooooooooooo glad I am not alone. And in good company. Due to physical limitations I have and will never be a TO. I always, however, pay attention to these kind of discussions and do not envy anyone who has to make a call on something like this in these uncertain times. Best way to avoid problems is to make SURE long guns are open and empty before going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pleasant , SASS #25245 L Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 TG Summit item: 1) If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied, should there be a "no call" if in fact, the firearm is empty, or a penalty if a spent case or live round is ejected? If the gun closes, the shooter will be the ONLY one to touch the gun until it is shown clear or otherwise, at the end of the stage. For 80.08% Against 19.11% Abstain 0.81% PASS What about the represented clubs 80.08% opinion / vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 A lot of work...effort...pain...as been expended just to eliminate a very rare occurrence...someone purposely closing their long gun after clearing it. wow... Phantom +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Follow up question. I open the action and set the gun down, the lever closes, say 1/2 way. As I run to next location, R.O. sees rifle and thinks it is closed. R.O. says to open action. I run back and see that the action is NOT closed.... Now what? So I stop and before touching the gun, point out to the R.O. that the action is open. Now what... (I don't like reshoots when I've shot the stage well.) End results: 1. We have not made the R.O. job any easier. 2. Continue to risk a major safety issue to address a non-issue. Great job!!! P.S. The way to avoid a Minor Safety is leaving the action open and empty BEFORE you fire the next gun or go to Unloading table. If action is closed, there is a remote possibility of a prop failure instead of a Minor Safety penalty. There is no longer any "if it was empty = no call" statements in the latest books. Last November if the RO called you back in the same scenario what happened. It's the same thing now except we have a clear definition of open and closed actions. I think we put the safety level back to where it was. While making the TO's job easier the previous rule lessened the safety level IMHO. No one will ever convince me that action closed is safer than action open or as safe. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCandless Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Not really a waste of time as it did shed some light on the illusion of us having some say. Phantom, SASS #54973, on 21 Jun 2014 - 09:30 AM, said: A lot of work...effort...pain...as been expended just to eliminate a very rare occurrence...someone purposely closing their long gun after clearing it. wow... Phantom +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Last November if the RO called you back in the same scenario what happened. It's the same thing now except we have a clear definition of open and closed actions. I think we put the safety level back to where it was. While making the TO's job easier the previous rule lessened the safety level IMHO. No one will ever convince me that action closed is safer than action open or as safe. Stan No, but the added confusion following the open or closed action is much more likely to lead to a MAJOR safety issue versus what is clearly a MINOR safety issue. After the shoot leaves the gun and is called back, I've seen: People slip and fall Breaking the 170 rule sweeping others I don't feel those are minor where as an untouched gun either empty or loaded is not a problem until someone touches it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 We've always had the action open rule except for the last 6 months. Nothing was added except an actual definition for open and closed. You're examples are shooter responsibility aren't they? Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 We've always had the action open rule except for the last 6 months. Nothing was added except an actual definition for open and closed. You're examples are shooter responsibility aren't they? Stan So is safety? And if 80% of clubs didn't think it was safe, it would not have passed. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 So is safety? And if 80% of clubs didn't think it was safe, it would not have passed. KK Well I guess when 80% of the clubs own SASS the changes won't get overruled. The majority of voters elected the current administration. Does that make it a good choice? Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiowa Kid, SASS #69870L Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Well I guess when 80% of the clubs own SASS the changes won't get overruled. Stan Wouldn't even be a point if they would have left the new rule alone. KK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Would even be a point if they would have left the new rule alone. KK Did you get upset when the WB reversed the TGs decision to keep the MSV for overloading the rifle? Or was that ok because you agreed with it. Could this situation been handled differently sure but the end result would have been the same. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Ringer Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 Wow !! That's a lot more clear now !! Geez Louise I read it like you did slick. Ya, clear as mud or the original rule. Before the new and the new, new rule, which is now the old rule. Not to be confused with the old, old rule????? Regards, Ringer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 The RO call is either: 1) call the shooter back "LEVER LEVER LEVER" or 2) say nothing. The problems I have personally seen on a fast shooter are 1) next gun is already out and cocked...movement = SDQ 2) next gun is already cocked shooter turns and breaks 170 = MDQ 3) slip/ fall and eject a loaded or unloaded gun 4) totally forget where they are and proceed to shoot a 'P" 5) waste more time than the penalty There are probably a host of other problems when calling a shooter back to a closed action condition. None of them are good. While most of us say we would rather be called back; the action can't be examined more than a fast glance by the TO. It can't be measured, can't be touched and the result is nothing more than a judgment call by the TO who is now damned either way. To those who argue that it is only a SxS shooter who would have closed it on purpose I would only say that many clubs have not yet designed stages to accommodate SxS staging in a safe and fair manner vs. '97's. Even WR who still has a couple of the nicest vertical props has not addressed the issue that a SxS requires 2 hands vs a '97. What bothers me the most other than the obvious disregard of the TG vote, is that it would have been so simple to have adopted the WBAS rule and ended the debate without having sacrificed a single thing to safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Assassin Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 So, why would one bother going to the convention on the premise they are voting on a new rule or rule change only to have it overturned by the WB? Glad we had our annual shoot last week. Wow! Those pesky blue jeans are next! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted June 21, 2014 Share Posted June 21, 2014 So, why would one bother going to the convention on the premise they are voting on a new rule or rule change only to have it overturned by the WB? Glad we had our annual shoot last week. Wow! Those pesky blue jeans are next! +1 A lot of time and money was spent by TG's out of there pocket to go vote. Only to have it jerked out from under them. Wonder how they will feel about going to that expense and time next time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Santa Fe River Stan,36999L Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 +1 A lot of time and money was spent by TG's out of there pocket to go vote. Only to have it jerked out from under them. Wonder how they will feel about going to that expense and time next time? That is a reasonable concern for sure. I guess we'll see. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 +1 A lot of time and money was spent by TG's out of there pocket to go vote. Only to have it jerked out from under them. Wonder how they will feel about going to that expense and time next time? Thank you for noticing that. Over 3K here. However, I'm already signed up for San Antonio. This situation is problematic. I sent my mailing list "the last word" after the Summit, then after the previous ROI update, then again yesterday. Now y'all raise some valid questions that I doubt will be answered until after EOT. If someone asked my advice, I'd say "ensure your long gun is open and empty when you set it down. If the TO calls you back because it somehow got closed, go open it." As that is a rare event 99.9% (I made that up) of the shooters should be okay. In other words, go back to the pre 2013 TG-summit rule. I'm so sorry to see this confusion happening. I'm feeling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diamond S Doug Posted June 22, 2014 Share Posted June 22, 2014 TG Summit item: 1) If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied, should there be a "no call" if in fact, the firearm is empty, or a penalty if a spent case or live round is ejected? If the gun closes, the shooter will be the ONLY one to touch the gun until it is shown clear or otherwise, at the end of the stage. For 80.08% Against 19.11% Abstain 0.81% PASS What about the represented clubs 80.08% opinion / vote? The owners said that's not good enough...trump card played Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted June 22, 2014 Author Share Posted June 22, 2014 Old rules with a small modicum of forgiveness in the event of a prop failure. Bottom line restage the gun open and empty to avoid any issues.....same as we always did prior to December. Stan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.