How to Make Current Dresses/Blouses Ok for B-Western?

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I think a plaid snap button shirt with no special trims and any color of jeans does not fit the flashy and fancy requirement.

I agree......

But the Flashy and Fancy becomes very subjective when you have a shooter standing in front of you ready to have a hissy fit.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

I agree......

But the Flashy and Fancy becomes very subjective when you have a shooter standing in front of you ready to have a hissy fit.

Hi Ace,

 

How would one know another is "ready to have a hissy fit" about a costume infraction until the call happens. Then, doesn't "hissy fit" fall into the following rule.

"• Belligerent attitude / Unsportsman-like conduct." This is listed under MDQ. It's either a hissy fit/MDQ or a conversation.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

Contrasting yoke, buttons, defined waist...

 

 

Fringe, conchos

 

[Guest Maker-Wright]

Along with specifics about acceptable kinds of garments (i.e. dresses, skirts, boots, gunleather, etc.,) perhaps the B-Western costuming requirements could include something to the effect;

 

The B-Western category is not for those who wish to do the minimum in costuming... Participants are expected to wear coordinated, flashy western outfits, reminiscent, for example, of the fanciest western styles worn by Roy Rogers and Dale Evans. Merely dressing like a ranch hand in a fancy shirt won't cut it. Clothing must include color-contrasting style elements such as; fringe, sequins, piping, ...

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

yall ar harping about flashy and fancy like that is mandatory, that is not written in stone,,,, it says "EXPECTED" not MUST.......

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Hi Ace,

 

How would one know another is "ready to have a hissy fit" about a costume infraction until the call happens. Then, doesn't "hissy fit" fall into the following rule.

"• Belligerent attitude / Unsportsman-like conduct." This is listed under MDQ. It's either a hissy fit/MDQ or a conversation.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

Being ready and actually having one is two different things.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

 

 

These both look like existing dresses that were converted with the addition of fringe and embroidery.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

This one takes the contrasting yoke and fringe and follows the theme to the skirt

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

BJ, put the puter down and walk away from it,,,,,,,

[Guest Maker-Wright]

yall ar harping about flashy and fancy like that is mandatory, that is not written in stone,,,, it says "EXPECTED" not MUST.......

 

And I believe that's exactly the biggest problem with B-Western...

 

In my opinion, the B-Western costume rules should absolutely require a significant commitment to highly-visual, bright, contrasting costume elements and style. Otherwise, B-Western will remain a vague, easily trespassed category, where many participants merely throw on a couple of rhinestones so they can compete in a less-populated category in hopes of placing higher... and it's a slap in the face to those who are spending the money, time, and creativity to do it right.

[Guest Maker-Wright]

Maybe more folks would be encouraged to participate in B-Western if...

 

Individuals were demanded to meet higher standards...

 

Instead of lowering standards to pacify a few demanding individuals.

[watab kid]

im liking anything the gals do - these are some great ideas and i think we need more ladies shooting so its all good with me , still trying to get my wife interested

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Honestly, I don't see that big of a problem on the east coast, y'all in the mountains seem to have the biggest problem with it, why? I don't know, even the competition is stiff, I have seen a pic of someone out yur way that was not even close, but come on east, south, and further west, yule see plenty of fancy and good competitors...

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I don't want to wander too far from the dress subject of this thread, but this is an example of when "subjectivity" comes into the B-Western rules.

Does this gentleman meet YOUR FLASHY and FANCY standard.

It's your match.... You make the call.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t1.0-9/p180x540/10426812_10201353049507217_8734254820931324971_n.jpg

[Nevada Skye, SASS #54791]

It does not look very flashy to me, however it does meet the requirements with piping and snaps, and he has on a scarf. I would make it a no call.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

yall ar harping about flashy and fancy like that is mandatory, that is not written in stone,,,, it says "EXPECTED" not MUST.......

PB,

 

This has been a polite discussion, for the most part. Calling it harping is rude.

 

IMO, following is the definition of expect in the rules (we know it isn't the we are expecting a baby definition ): "to look for with reason or justification: We expect obedience." It is like saying we expect people to follow SASS rules at SASS affiliated matches. If they don't, we expect that they have a good reason, like range rules regarding rounds over the berm.

 

Maker Wright, the costume you describe sounds nice and it is nice of you to stand up for Sonora's right to wear it in BW. However, it may or may not fit in the BW category. Currently, it only fits the flashy and fancy part, which PB doesn't believe is a firm rule. I believe that an explicit statement should be added to the rules saying whether or not Mexican-style costumes are appropriate. I think it should be an agenda item.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

[Grizzly Dave]

PB,

 

This has been a polite discussion, for the most part. Calling it harping is rude.

 

IMO, following is the definition of expect in the rules (we know it isn't the we are expecting a baby definition ): "to look for with reason or justification: We expect obedience." It is like saying we expect people to follow SASS rules at SASS affiliated matches. If they don't, we expect that they have a good reason, like range rules regarding rounds over the berm.

 

Maker Wright, the costume you describe sounds nice and it is nice of you to stand up for Sonora's right to wear it in BW. However, it may or may not fit in the BW category. Currently, it only fits the flashy and fancy part, which PB doesn't believe is a firm rule. I believe that an explicit statement should be added to the rules saying whether or not Mexican-style costumes are appropriate. I think it should be an agenda item.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

Unless you are referencing a comment I could not find, I think you are out of line. He was merely stating his opinion, not describing in detail her outfit. Which by the way, praise I don't have a problem calling a person's name, criticism, especially when they are not a party to the conversation is RUDE. Those of us who know her know that she plays and dresses to the 9s according to her understanding of the rules.

 

For goodness sakes, he was citing someone who loves BW and who, in his opinion, (and in many other's opinions as well) exemplifies the category, why would you feel the need to call that into question?????????????????

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

This thread compels me to say Thanks to Sonora Blaze...

 

In my opinion, around here (Colorado) Sonora is the example of what Ladies B-Western costuming should be. At every match I've seen her attend, she is always dressed head to toe in beautiful, colorful skirt/shirt outfits. Sonora color-coordinates everything in her outfits... boots, gunleather, hat, etc. B-western is supposed to be about "Flash", and Sonora's outfits are always bright, delightful, and exemplary.

 

Because B-Western is intended to be a costume-emphasized category, and seeing someone (like Sonora) who does B-Western right adds so much character to any SASS event, It disappoints me that so many others seem to just do the minimum for B-western (possibly so they can squeak into a less-populated category in hopes of placing better?)

 

Thanks Sonora!

 

 

 

Unless you are referencing a comment I could not find, I think you are out of line. He was merely stating his opinion, not describing in detail her outfit. Which by the way, praise I don't have a problem calling a person's name, criticism, especially when they are not a party to the conversation is RUDE. Those of us who know her know that she plays and dresses to the 9s according to her understanding of the rules.

 

For goodness sakes, he was citing someone who loves BW and who, in his opinion, (and in many other's opinions as well) exemplifies the category, why would you feel the need to call that into question?????????????????

 

What? I did not criticize anyone but PB for his harping comment. I certainly did not criticize Sonora Blaze. I do not know if Mexican costumes are intended to fit in BW or not. It isn't stated one way or the other. I think it should be to put an end to the controversy about Mexican costumes. I have quoted Maker Wright's comment in this post.

 

I am shocked and hurt by your comment to me.

[Painted Filly]

I think that the picture that Aces just posted is fine. He was with in the rules as stated. Flashy is subjective Aces is correct about that. If they meet the essence of the rules then the rules do not need to be rewritten. Yes B-Western is supposed to be over the top of the average shooter but this is still a shooting sport but if you get to restrictive you will strangle this category.

 

Again let people choose what they feel is flashy and fancy according to their comfort level. Educate don't berate. Other than the fact that it is hard to get a marlin and I know that other rifles are aloud as long as the person is following the rules lets enjoy the shooting. Because if we make the rules too confining it will be too hard to grow this sport and isn't that what we all want in the long run.

 

I have talked to a lot of ladies and what is stopping them from doing B-Western is the horror stories about the costuming.

 

After reading what is going on this thread right now I am apprehensive myself about changing. Because what I thought was going to be a fairly easy transition is becoming mind boggling.

 

I appreciate all the input on this thread. But this should not be this difficult. There should not be 7 pages on this subject.

 

Painted Filly

[Grizzly Dave]

PB,

 

This has been a polite discussion, for the most part. Calling it harping is rude.

 

IMO, following is the definition of expect in the rules (we know it isn't the we are expecting a baby definition ): "to look for with reason or justification: We expect obedience." It is like saying we expect people to follow SASS rules at SASS affiliated matches. If they don't, we expect that they have a good reason, like range rules regarding rounds over the berm.

 

Maker Wright, the costume you describe sounds nice and it is nice of you to stand up for Sonora's right to wear it in BW. However, it may or may not fit in the BW category. Currently, it only fits the flashy and fancy part, which PB doesn't believe is a firm rule. I believe that an explicit statement should be added to the rules saying whether or not Mexican-style costumes are appropriate. I think it should be an agenda item.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

I stand by my comments. He was describing a person and in general her outfits, not any specific one.

[Grizzly Dave]

For folks that say they would like to grow a category, it is my opinion that you are seeking to micro manage it to death.

 

I'm done, do what you want. Just don't enforce rules that are not in the book, or are not crystal clear in the book.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Again, Dave I was not criticizing her!

 

PS He only described the Flashy and Fancy.

[Grizzly Dave]

The comment he made could have been said about anyone, including dare I say it Coyote Calhoon himself. While your comment is true, from that general description Maker gave, compliance with rules can not be determined. My point is that your pointing that out served no constructive purpose and only served to tarnish not only Maker's testimony about her, but her reputation itself.

 

Have we really come to the point where someone can't give another some praise and complement without another questioning every detail that wasn't even mentioned in the original comment?

[Pit Bull Tex]

This has become hotter than the TEX blue jean post.I think the ladies look great at the shoots.I just hope that Mrs.Filly got what she ask for.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hello Folks,

 

I apologize for my post. It seems my intent was misunderstood. If anyone was hurt by them, I apologize. To ensure minimum distribution, I have hid them and the related replies.

 

To make a long story short, I would like to see an end to the controversy over a certain type of costume. That will require a statement in the rule saying whether or not they are allowed.

 

Sincerely,

 

Allie

[Grizzly Dave]

deleted.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

It does not look very flashy to me, however it does meet the requirements with piping and snaps, and he has on a scarf. I would make it a no call.

The reason I posted this picture is to illustrate the subjectivity that a Match Director faces.

Yes the cowboy seems to meet all the rules under the "Shirt" section of the B-Western rules BUT then you get to the end and it states everything is to be "FLASHY AND FANCY" his shirt falls far short of this test.

In addition, if you break down the shirt requirement

Shirts must be of the “B” Western style with snap buttons or any of the following: “Smiley Pockets,” embroidery, appliqués, fringe, or different colored yokes.

Yes he has a western shirt with snap buttons. The word "or" should be changed to "AND".

Smiley Pockets - NO

Embroidery - NO

Appliques - NO

Fringe - NO

Different colored yoke - NO

Therefore the shirt in the picture would FAIL to meet the test and would be EXCLUDED from the B-Western Category. This simple change would greatly enhance the B-Western category as it would eliminate the plain western shirt with snaps and still allow the "fancy and flashy" western shirt.

The reference to "Piping" is for "shirt shields" only. And was put in so the the competitor could wear certain shield/bib shirts that met this test.

Shield shirts are also allowed if the shield/bib has piping or embroidery.

Back to the re-writing of B-Western rules.

If you are going to make a suggestion make it so there is a definitive line that must be complied with or you end up in the weeds.

No mexican style outfits period is one thing. Just remember that you are throwing out the Cisco Kid with that bathwater. (This is my choice) The Vaquero outfit looks great, it just isn't Hoppy, Gene or Roy.

No mexican style outfits for women is going to create an uproar from the pretty people.

I will concede to allow dresses with the addition to the word "dress" being added to the rules as well as requiring the bodices to comply with the requirements of the shirt requirements above.

PS

I also feel we should limit the category to Double Barrel Shotguns only. (Pumps and lever shotguns are just not B-Western)

[Nevada Skye, SASS #54791]

Ace: HA! See, I thought "piping" was included in the first part after snaps, I think it and rhinestones should be!!! IMHO. However, going strictly by your post, it is not. So, then you would be correct. And you KNOW I don't want my lovely '97 taken away, however, if that were to happen, I would comply with the rules or shoot another category (still in my fancy B Western duds though!!) Actually, Cisco would meet the "leading man" category wouldn't he? And IF they wore the correct shirt and pants, they could wear the jacket all fancied up, yes? AND, of course, the hat as long as it is felt, yes??? See, I would like the rule to say "cowboy" felt hats too, but I have only seen a couple of people wear something else, and they looked pretty silly with a derby or kepie on with B Western style shirts, I must say!!!

I think it would be great if the Match Directors could have a note when they accept the shoot fees about the B Western and the Classic Cowboy requirements, like we have tried to do for Eldorado, BEFORE the shoot so there are not misunderstandings. The Costume requirements, awards etc. are posted on the site months before the shoot so people may get a handle on them. When they do get this dress question straightened out, I will have to get them changed. Last year, I spoke to a couple of shooters BEFORE the shoot to be sure everyone understood and there would be no problems on Main Match days. And then we didn't have any, so that worked out okay. (at least I thought so).

 

Perhaps: "Shirts must be of the “B” Western style with snap buttons or any of the following: “Smiley Pockets,” embroidery, appliqués, fringe, or different colored yokes. No Mexican shirts/blouses."

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Ace: HA! See, I thought "piping" was included in the first part after snaps, I think it and rhinestones should be!!! IMHO. However, going strictly by your post, it is not. So, then you would be correct. And you KNOW I don't want my lovely '97 taken away, however, if that were to happen, I would comply with the rules or shoot another category (still in my fancy B Western duds though!!) Actually, Cisco would meet the "leading man" category wouldn't he? And IF they wore the correct shirt and pants, they could wear the jacket all fancied up, yes? AND, of course, the hat as long as it is felt, yes??? See, I would like the rule to say "cowboy" felt hats too, but I have only seen a couple of people wear something else, and they looked pretty silly with a derby or kepie on with B Western style shirts, I must say!!!

I think it would be great if the Match Directors could have a note when they accept the shoot fees about the B Western and the Classic Cowboy requirements, like we have tried to do for Eldorado, BEFORE the shoot so there are not misunderstandings. The Costume requirements, awards etc. are posted on the site months before the shoot so people may get a handle on them. When they do get this dress question straightened out, I will have to get them changed. Last year, I spoke to a couple of shooters BEFORE the shoot to be sure everyone understood and there would be no problems on Main Match days. And then we didn't have any, so that worked out okay. (at least I thought so).

 

Perhaps: "Shirts must be of the “B” Western style with snap buttons AND any of the following: “Smiley Pockets,” embroidery, appliqués, fringe, or different colored yokes. No Mexican shirts/blouses."

 

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

What is wrong with buttons or laces or zippers up the back. Zippers were used in BW fancy and flashy costumes. I think that may be how the dress in post 116 was accessed. http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=223616&p=2901520 Also, did you see the darling costume in post 115? http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=223616&p=2901518 I would hate to see that excluded because the top is lace up.

 

The more I read and think about the controversy over costuming, the more I think the rule needs to be rewritten.

 

Also, locally, we have two men who wear those fancy Mexican costumes with huge fancy sombreros in BW. I never gave it a thought that they may not be allowed. They do have smiley pockets and fancy trims. If they are okay, maybe ladies Senorita costumes would fit too. I think that including or excluding Mexican-type costumes be specifically stated and voted on.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Hi Folks,

 

What is wrong with buttons or laces or zippers up the back. Zippers were used in BW fancy and flashy costumes. I think that may be how the dress in post 116 was accessed. http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=223616&p=2901520 Also, did you see the darling costume in post 115? http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=223616&p=2901518 I would hate to see that excluded because the top is lace up.

 

The more I read and think about the controversy over costuming, the more I think the rule needs to be rewritten.

 

Also, locally, we have two men who wear those fancy Mexican costumes with huge fancy sombreros in BW. I never gave it a thought that they may not be allowed. They do have smiley pockets and fancy trims. If they are okay, maybe ladies Senorita costumes would fit too. I think that including or excluding Mexican-type costumes be specifically stated and voted on.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

Allie.... It say SHIRTS must have snaps.....! We haven't discussed lady's "bodices".

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS This woman's top looks like a Senorita blouse. Does it not fit the spirit of the category?

[Nevada Skye, SASS #54791]

I think in the "dress" portion of the rules, they could have zippers, buttons, etc. But not in the Shirt portion. And yes, these rules need to be clarified all around. Until then, we have to use what we have!!! Remember, the ROII book has the additional remarks of no John Wayne, no spaghetti westerns and no townspeople. I sure wish they would put it all together!! And not everything ever seen in a B Western is included, or we will have Saloon Girls next. (and THAT was voted down several years ago)

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Allie.... It say SHIRTS must have snaps.....! We haven't discussed lady's "bodices".

Like I said, I think the rule needs a rewrite. I can visualize a flashy/fancy fringed, piped, smiley pocketed shirt with buttons.

[Nevada Skye, SASS #54791]

I have a couple of shirts with buttons......and all the other stuff!! But anything I have ever bought that are called B Western have snaps. I have no problem with "snaps or buttons AND etc." for the rule. I know, Ace, you don't agree with me. But we can still be pals!!!! (as long as you leave my '97 alone.......... )

 

Oh, and I think this is great to try and get this all hashed out, as long as it is kept civil.