How to Make Current Dresses/Blouses Ok for B-Western?

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

PWB, i ain't got a dog in the hunt, and I ain't no expert..., but simple me thinks all that is needed is to change 'shirt' to 'shirt or bodice'.

 

Add dress to where it says skirts are ok

 

Is not the intent that they still be flashy like the skirt/shirt combo?

 

Makes sense to me...

 

But again, I don't know much nor presume to tell anyone else what is needed since I won't give up my '73

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

dresses too, as long as they still meet the requirements of a shirt/skirt/ pants

 

for a starter..

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

And for us men... A bodice is the part of a woman's dress that is above the waist.

 

And PBCC is right. A dress's skirt should meet the same requirements for a skirt worn with a skirt

[Nevada Skye, SASS #54791]

How about:

"Ladies may wear skirts, split skirts or a dress. A B Western dress is expected to be flashy and fancy. The dress bodice must have snaps or buttons for closure and at least one of the following: Smiley Pockets, embroidery, appliqués, fringe, rhinestones, piping, or a contrasting yoke."

 

 

I think this might cover the basics and make sure the dress stays in the B Western style. I would not mind requiring TWO of the choices myself.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

So, the first two dresses that Dale Evans is wearing on the previous page would not be acceptable in what you are proposing as they do not have snap or button closure. One appears tied as the other probably has a hidden zipper in the back.

 

At one time you thought they were good examples...

 

Dresses are now allowed in B Western. Does this mean the bodice of the dress has to meet with the requirements of the B Western Shirts? Does it still mean that you must use the accessories as outline in the current rule? The pictures above are lovely examples but not everyone can wear ones like that!!

[Judge'm All Duncan, SASS#67320]

Jack,

I'm just curious but........ WHAT in the world are you in this conversation for??

 

I know I have seen you in a prison nightspot before but nobody called it a dress.

 

I'm just curious???

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

I like pretty girls. Specifically my wife!

 

Truth be told, I'm not sure how I got sucked into this one.

 

But once I got here....

 

It may come back to the time I was working in a costume shop making stuff like this.

 

Kind of like how I realize that the two Nudie dresses that I put up on the previous page have real snap fronts. However, the look could easily be achieved and the bodice a bit more form fitting if the front was a false front and you put a hidden zipper in the back.

 

You box this in too hard, you really limit yourself.

 

And, since I don't have a dog in the fight, I come in pretty impartial, don't you think

 

Just sayin...

[Judge'm All Duncan, SASS#67320]

That's kinda what I figured. I would love to see some lovely ladies in some of the dresses you posted pics of.

 

Maybe some day.

[Grizzly Dave]

PWB - I'll take a stab at it, I'm no expert on BW self appointed or otherwise, and I never had the pleasure of meeting Coyote Calhoon which is my loss, but I do have a passable understanding of the English language, a love for this game, and an opinion.

 

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“B” WESTERN

• Any main match revolver.

• Revolvers may be shot in any SASS–legal shooting style, at the shooters’ discretion.

• Rifles: Any SASS–legal rifle of 1880 or later design or a replica thereof (e.g., Burgess,

Lightning Rifle, 1892, 1894 Winchester or Marlin).

• May use any SASS–legal shotgun.

• May use any SASS–legal ammunition.

• Leather: Buscadero holster rigs or drop holster rigs. (All of the revolver(s) must be carried

below the top of the gun belt.) All belt and holster rigs must be embellished (fancy

stitching, conchos, spots, or tooling). All holsters must be of the “Double Strong-Side”

type. No crossdraw, shoulder rigs, or butt forward configurations allowed.

Costuming:

• All costumes are expected to be fancy and flashy. This kinda got lost at the bottom and being the spirit of B-Western IMO, it should be the first thing mentioned on B-Western costuming.

• Dresses in the B-Western style are allowed. As noted by other posters, the snap or button closure isn't always applicable on dresses as there are other options. 'in the B-Western style' and 'Fancy and flashy' are enough in my opinion and a further laundry list of requirements is not needed.

• Costuming: Shirts must be of the “B” Western style with snap buttons or any of the

following: “Smiley Pockets,” embroidery, appliqués, fringe, or different colored yokes.

Shield shirts are also allowed if the shield/bib has piping or embroidery.

• Pants must be jeans, ranch pants, or pants with flap over the rear pocket, keystone belt

loops, and/or piping or fringe.

• Pants must be worn with a belt. Ladies may wear skirts or split riding skirts. Suspenders are

not allowed. Felt hats only, no straw, or palm leaf hats. Hats must be worn.

• Boots are required and must be of traditional design and embellished with fancy stitching,

multi-color fancy design, conchos or spots. Soles must be non-grip enhancing (i.e., “NO

Lug”) soles. Lace up boots and moccasins are not allowed.

• Western Spurs with spur straps are required for men.

• You must choose at least one or more of the following optional items: gloves or gauntlets,

scarves with slides or tied around the neck or bolo tie, coat, vest, chaps or cuffs.

• All costumes are expected to be fancy and flashy. The “B” Western costuming must be

worn during the entire match and awards ceremony with exception of evening formal

occasions.

[Flying W Ramrod]

Okay, since I have a dog in this hunt, this is Fannie Mostly, aka Queen of Bling, chiming in here under my hubby's name. First, I've been shooting in the LBW category since 2006, and never once considered the fact that a DRESS was not legal, since it was not specifically outlawed in the rules for BW costume. Now that it has been "clarified" by the ROC to be legal, the design of the dress requires definition. Basically, the wording should include something about the waistline being formfitting or seamed at the waistline (i.e., not A-line or tent-like cinched in by holsters, in order to avoid a "prairie dress look"), and at least the bodice should include the identical requirements for the shirt/blouse (e.g., pearl snaps OR piping, western yoke, fancy embroidery, etc.). Also, all other costume accessories MUST remain the same (i.e., scarves or their designated options, boots, hats). Our biggest problem in this category as I see it is getting the match officials at State and above matches to enforce compliance with the rules as stated. Most of us who take the category seriously spend a lot of money, time and creativity to come up with the "flashy and fancy" costumes required in the rules, just to have a match official allow a plain white peasant blouse on a woman, or a faded denim work shirt with pearl snaps on a man. Both of these are true-to-life examples that happened at Winter Range this year, and I just hope there are plans in the works to make compliance with the BW and CC categories more consistent. Thank you ROC for taking the first step in making the clarification...now let's all see to it that the wording makes it crystal clear to those who like to push the envelope.

[Nevada Skye, SASS #54791]

I thought that perhaps by adding the dresses must have snaps or button closures that would eliminate the peasant blouses. Or they could just flat out state no mexican or prairie blouses\dresses like they do the John Wayne, spaghetti westerns and town people. And adding a "defined waist" might help too. Adding "western yoke" would help for both the shirts and dresses. . I agree pretty much with your thoughts, Queen!!!

[Painted Filly]

I don't think that on a dress you have to have snaps or button closures. That really limits your options for some of us woman. I think having the option to have piping or something else on the top is better. I think you need to back off and quit being so strict. You are ruining the category and making it to restrictive for people to have fun and enjoy it. Get off you high horses and let people be creative and enjoy themselves.

 

I have been just sitting back watching this and I am completely stunned at how rigid some of you can be on your views on this. You act like your way is the only way. But there all sorts of ways to dress for B-Western. I for one am not one that will be at the far end of the Flashy and Fancy. I am sorry. But I don't feel that every one has the be at the far end. I feel that everyone should be able to choose their level of Flashy and Fancy and that someone should not tell me that I am not flashy enough.

 

Not everyone first of all has an unlimited budget to make/buy Expensive Flashy clothes. Second not everyone feels comfortable in Extremely Flashy clothes.

 

So Ladies and Gents BACK OFF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let us decide how flashy we want to be. Yes there should be a minimum. But don't make this a category that people can not or do not want to compete in. Just simply add the word Dress and let it be! Let us all be individuals.

 

Just add the word Dress and quit with your dictating of peoples clothes! Let me go back to figuring out my wardrobe!

 

Painted Filly

[Flying W Ramrod]

Grizzly Dave, I pretty much agree with your language revisions, with one exception. Because of the problems we've experience with the blouses/shirts in the past, I think the dress bodice requirements need to be specifically spelled out. Just saying "in the B Western style" is not enough to eliminate controversy. There needs to be a reference to the same specifics as required for the blouse/shirt "B Western Style" (possibly by just adding the words "and dress bodices" under the shirt requirements category), and some mention of a fitted waistline for dresses. Nevada Skye's suggestion of adding a "no Mexican or prairie style blouses, dresses or skirts" would also be helpful to clarify the intent of the costuming requirements. We want to keep this category pure, as envisioned by Coyote Calhoun. BTW, I REALLY love the idea of putting "flashy and fancy" up towards the top of the costuming requirements - that, in itself, would have eliminated the two costuming issues I mentioned above at WR this year. Hope all this discussion helps you PWB.

 

Fannie Mostly (SASS 41799), aka Queen of Bling (SASS 94718)

[Grizzly Dave]

When I think of peasant blouse, I think of something very plain, so since it's been brought up by several different posters, I decided to do some research to see if my vision was correct, and to see if there were peasant blouses that could pass 'Flashy and Fancy' and 'In the B-Western style' It appears that my vision wasn't correct. One of the first images I came upon was this

It is indeed fancy and flashy, has embroidery and also a pronounced yoke. The 'B-Western Style' has many influences from the Spanish / Mexican culture.

 

On the issue of specific dress construction or whatever you want to call it. All women do not have the same body type. There are some who do not have a well defined waist or to whom 'form fitting' would not be flattering or even an option. I am married to one of those types.

 

Unless done differently by a given match, the handbooks show that costume inspection if you want to call it that is the responsibility of the TO as the shooter comes to the line. (Reference RO 2, Page 6 under the heading 'shooter evaluation') For most TO's, being able to just 'judge' a BW costume on 'Fancy and Flashy' and 'B-Western Style' would be much easier than trying to remember each of the specific hallmarks of a BW costume and the specifically allowed constructions and allowed and disallowed items.

 

In my opinion a published list of the hallmarks and attributes of a classic B-Western costume is a good thing if shown as 'some of the attributes...' and not mandated as required and the only way to comply. Being overly strict by requiring specific attributes serves to inhibit the imagination and creativity of those in, or seeking to be in the category. Certainly that list would be helpful in judging a costume contest where deciding between several beautiful outfits so as to award prizes. But the main match is not a costume contest and ROs have more important things, like safety, to concern themselves with than having to know, remember, and check a long list of specifics on ladies BW costumes.

 

Most of the gripes I have heard about BW costuming could be addressed under the 'Fancy and Flashy' expectation that is already in the rules. Enforcement is the issue, nobody wants to tell someone else that their outfit is not in compliance. But perhaps it would be easier if 'Fancy and Flashy' and 'In the B-Western Style' were the first and major points in the rules concerning BW costuming.

 

Those are my thoughts and opinions, your mileage may vary.

 

Grizz

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

I thought I might try BW some day. So, years ago, I had a blingy Buscadero rig made. I still do not have all the pieces together to shoot the category. So rather asking for a modification to the rule, I shoot in an age-based category.

 

In the following photo (GFBJL posse), I'm in the black vest and skirt. You can't see my boots. They have flashy silver spats that are held on by the laces. Unfortunately, lace up boots are not allowed in BW. I think this costume could be considered as fitting the spirit of the category. However, it doesn't follow the rules, which I have no complaints about, so I shot age-based. Depending on your age, there are many that you may qualify for. Also, there are duelist, GF, FC...

 

I admire the people who go all the way to fit into the BW category. They really add a special sparkle to our matches.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS Grizz, costume contests can be a "whole 'nother animal." They may not follow the category requirements. Rather, they are often open to a "silver screen" definition which may allow Mae West or saloon gal or side-kick costumes.

 

[Grizzly Dave]

...

 

PS Grizz, costume contests can be a "whole 'nother animal." They may not follow the category requirements. Rather, they are often open to a "silver screen" definition which may allow Mae West or saloon gal or side-kick costumes.

 

 

 

True enuff, my point was that costume contest judges have the time to evaluate every minute detail of a costume, TOs do not. ( I get a little wordy at times)

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Let's nip this in the bud.

New line added to B-Western costume rules.

Peasant blouses/bodices are forbidden.

 

They look like a decorated T-shirt

[Grizzly Dave]

Let's nip this in the bud.

New line added to B-Western costume rules.

Peasant blouses for women are forbidden.

 

Ace, if that is what the ROC and the TGs want to do, that's fine, but I see nothing in the current rules that would lead me to believe that is the case. If there is something there, please point it out to me.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

My prediction is coming true!

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

goodness,,,

 

glad y'all dint have a hand in writing the rule books!

 

did ch'all come from a Baptist church split?

 

 

just add dress and stipulate it meet the requirements that blouses and skirts must....

 

fancy and flashy? sure they should be, you really want that judged??? like two people would agree...

[Nevada Skye, SASS #54791]

The picture of the mexican blouse is not a B Western shirt. It is a mexican peasant blouse. A B Western Shirt is a very particular type of shirt as invented by Weil in the 1940's. You allow mexican clothing for women, then you will need to allow it for the men too. B Western does not mean ANYTHING that has ever been in a B Western movie. It is a tribute, as I said before, to the Singing Cowboys type of clothing, as explained to me by CC. Now that he is not here anymore does not mean we should totally change his legacy on this.

 

The rules already call for fancy and flashy, that is what this category is. (and Cheyenne, on the flashy point, it seems where I shoot it has been pretty relaxed, considering yes, it means different things to different people. I am pretty conservative compared to others! ) If you don't want to do so, then there are plenty of other categories to choose from. This is supposed to be a "protected" costume category, not wide open to anything. The people "ruining" (I don't really think anyone is purposefully trying to "ruin this category, but they are trying to change it to suit their own wants/needs) . this category are the ones who want to change it from the original version that CC had in mind so many years ago. It does indeed have some rather strict guidelines. I have no problem adding dresses, but they need to fit the same standards as the shirts, IMHO.

 

 

I can understand not wanting the snaps and buttons put in the rule, that is why I put my thoughts up, to be discussed civilly. It was just an idea, since the B Western shirts have them. Flashy and fancy does not have to be expensive, and I believe that includes fun and fancy fabrics besides the trims, etc. You can add rhinestones, fringe, appliques, easily and inexpensively to a plain shirt to spruce it up. The most expensive part is the leather, boots and guns required. In the many years I have been shooting B Western, things had gone along rather smoothly with the requirements. It just seems lately people are pushing the rules and diluting the category. Like I said, there are MANY others to choose from if you don't care for the general rules.

 

It would be great to move the words "flashy and fancy" to the top of the category description.

[Anvil Al #59168]

goodness,,,

 

glad y'all dint have a hand in writing the rule books!

 

did ch'all come from a Baptist church split?

 

 

just add dress and stipulate it meet the requirements that blouses and skirts must....

 

fancy and flashy? sure they should be, you really want that judged??? like two people would agree...

 

 

+1

[Grizzly Dave]

All I know and can make a call based on it what is actually in the manuals. Make them too detailed and more and more folks won't bother to read them.

 

I guess all TO/ROs need to go to BW clothing school so that they will know exactly what is allowed and how to recognize it, and what is not and how to recognize that. I don't have the time or desire to do so, I hope that others do or we won't have anyone willing to take the timer.

[Anvil Al #59168]

The TO's don't really have to do that. Unless he knows for sure it's not legal.

 

Some of this is on the match officials, and the other competitors in that category to protest

something if they feel it is not legal.

[Grizzly Dave]

The TO's don't really have to do that. Unless he knows for sure it's not legal.

 

Some of this is on the match officials, and the other competitors in that category to protest

something if they feel it is not legal.

 

Al - I was somewhat referencing part of one of my earlier posts

 

...

Unless done differently by a given match, the handbooks show that costume inspection if you want to call it that is the responsibility of the TO as the shooter comes to the line. (Reference RO 2, Page 6 under the heading 'shooter evaluation') For most TO's, being able to just 'judge' a BW costume on 'Fancy and Flashy' and 'B-Western Style' would be much easier than trying to remember each of the specific hallmarks of a BW costume and the specifically allowed constructions and allowed and disallowed items.

...

[Granny Annie SASS #37063]

1+++++ for Cheyenne. This thing has gotten ridiculous.

 

Nevada Sky, I thought that was what this was all about in the first place. You didn't want dresses allowed.

 

 

"I have no problem adding dresses, but they need to fit the same standards as the shirts, IMHO. "

 

 

goodness,,,

glad y'all dint have a hand in writing the rule books!

did ch'all come from a Baptist church split?


just add dress and stipulate it meet the requirements that blouses and skirts must....

fancy and flashy? sure they should be, you really want that judged??? like two people would agree...

[Nevada Skye, SASS #54791]

How about this? "Ladies may wear skirts, split skirts or dresses. The bodice of the dress must conform to the same rules as the shirts do. They must have a defined waist. Mexican clothing is not allowed"

 

That is pretty simple I think.

[Nevada Skye, SASS #54791]

Granny, I didn't say I didn't WANT dresses allowed, I said it did not believe they WERE allowed in the rules. I also said I gladly would accept whatever the ruling was that came down. Now they are, and we need to specify what they can or cannot be.

from my first post: "Filly, I don't believe you can wear a "dress". The Rules call for a B Western shirt or a Bib Shirt."

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

The TO's don't really have to do that. Unless he knows for sure it's not legal.

 

Some of this is on the match officials, and the other competitors in that category to protest

something if they feel it is not legal.

Hi Folks,

 

The problem here is that the match officials often do not have time to check every posse every day. Sometimes, there is only one BW or CC shooter on a posse. Then, who is to verify they are shooting in category? Others in their categories may not know they are shooting that category. Also, there are other categories with specific requirements; for example frontier cartridge with it's sight, smoke, an SG requirements.

 

The following may not be popular; but, it is my suggestion for how I think things could work for out-of-category infractions. PMs or a designated person should at the first roll call and thereafter see that the shooters in categories with restrictive requirements meet those requirements. If a shooter does not meet the requirements at roll call (costume) or the fist stage (smoke, guns...), they can then be offered the option of changing to an appropriate category. If the person doesn't comply with category requirements after the first stage, a progressive penalty is appropriate. They would still have two chances (after the P and after the SDQ) to obtain appropriate costume, ammo, guns, shooting style... before earning a MDQ.

 

In this, I am not a Pollyanna, there may still be no one on a posse willing to make a call.

 

Also, those of you who shoot Duelist, FC, FCGF.... and think this discussion is ridiculous, how would you feel if someone in your category did not meet the smoke, gun, grip requirements of your category. Some may choose BW because the costuming is more important to them than propellants. I don't think it is nice to ridicule people for feeling that existing rules should be clear and enforced uniformly.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Anvil Al #59168]

Hey. Not saying I would not call it if I seen it.

BUT.

Just like in CC. As a TO. I am not counting all his things he has on to make sure it is 5.

 

But many TO's. Are not up on all the little things in BW or CC. Sometimes those category's

need to police themselves and not wait on others to call it.

 

But if I know it is not in category. Then I would. But not being in that category. Something may

slip by me that people in that category will catch.

 

That's all I am saying.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

How about this? "Ladies may wear skirts, split skirts or dresses. The bodice of the dress must conform to the same rules as the shirts do. They must have a defined waist. Mexican clothing is not allowed"

 

That is pretty simple I think.

I think that fits the initial intent of the category. One does not have to be slim and trim to wear a defined waist. For the most part, weight issues can be resolved by proper fitting. If people aren't willing to do that, there are other categories.

[Tyrel Cody]

Hi Folks,

 

The problem here is that the match officials often do not have time to check every posse every day. Sometimes, there is only one BW or CC shooter on a posse. Then, who is to verify they are shooting in category? Others in their categories may not know they are shooting that category. Also, there are other categories with specific requirements; for example frontier cartridge with it's sight, smoke, an SG requirements.

 

The following may not be popular; but, it is my suggestion for how I think things could work for out-of-category infractions. PMs or a designated person should at the first roll call and thereafter see that the shooters in categories with restrictive requirements meet those requirements. If a shooter does not meet the requirements at roll call (costume) or the fist stage (smoke, guns...), they can then be offered the option of changing to an appropriate category. If the person doesn't comply with category requirements after the first stage, a progressive penalty is appropriate. They would still have two chances (after the P and after the SDQ) to obtain appropriate costume, ammo, guns, shooting style... before earning a MDQ.

 

In this, I am not a Pollyanna, there may still be no one on a posse willing to make a call.

 

Also, those of you who shoot Duelist, FC, FCGF.... and think this discussion is ridiculous, how would you feel if someone in your category did not meet the smoke, gun, grip requirements of your category. Some may choose BW because the costuming is more important to them than propellants. I don't think it is nice to ridicule people for feeling that existing rules should be clear and enforced uniformly.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

Is it not possible for the shooters in a given category to gather before the safety meeting and check each other out? I realize this wouldn't work for us Black Powder shooters but I have to ask is that really an issue; I KNOW I'll never be accused of not making enough smoke

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

 

Is it not possible for the shooters in a given category to gather before the safety meeting and check each other out? I realize this wouldn't work for us Black Powder shooters but I have to ask is that really an issue; I KNOW I'll never be accused of not making enough smoke

Hi Tyrel,

 

That may work on day one or for the first stage. Following is an example I saw at our State match. Male BW shooter looked great day one. Day two, I would call sloppy and plain. It was no way Flashy and Fancy. I wasn't on his posse; but, when I saw him after the match, I told him what I thought with specifics. I hope in this case peer pressure will have an effect on his actions in the future.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

[Tyrel Cody]

Hi Tyrel,

 

That may work on day one or for the first stage. Following is an example I saw at our State match. Male BW shooter looked great day one. Day two, I would call sloppy and plain. It was no way Flashy and Fancy. I wasn't on his posse; but, when I saw him after the match, I told him what I thought with specifics. I hope in this case peer pressure will have an effect on his actions in the future.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

What prevents that on day 2?

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Folks,

 

The following is from p. 5-6 of the RO II Booklet.

 

'SHOOTER EVALUATION As each shooter approaches the course of fire, the Chief Range Officer (CRO) or Expediter (XP) Officer shall conduct a visual inspection. This may be best accomplished by asking oneself the following questions as you observe the shooter approaching:

IMPAIRMENTS Does the shooter appear to be physically and mentally capable of safely navigating the requirements of the stage? Will the shooter need any special assistance to safely navigate the requirements of the stage?

FIREARMS Without physical inspection, do all firearms appear to be SASS legal? Are the firearms correct for the category in which the shooter is participating?
LEATHER Does the shooter’s leather (gun belt, holster, pouch, bandoleer, shotgun belt) conform to SASS rules? Remember, it is the ammo on belts that must be at or below the belly button.

CLOTHING Does the shooter’s clothing conform to SASS rules and the rules of the category in which the shooter is participating?

AMMUNITION Does the shooter have all the necessary ammunition on their person or in the correct staged positions to complete the course of fire?

EYE AND EAR PROTECTION Does the shooter have the necessary eye and ear protection? In the event the shooter is found to have illegal equipment or to be unprepared to begin the course of fire, the Chief Range Officer shall direct them to the loading or unloading table where the necessary corrections can be made prior to returning to the firing line.

SHOOTING CATEGORY In which category is the shooter competing? This information should aid in determining the best location for the spotters and Timer Operator to position themselves in order to assist the shooter, as well as what to expect of the shooter and their equipment upon engaging a stage. Prior to shooting the stage, Gunfighters should declare to the Timer Operator their intended option for shooting their revolvers. There is no penalty if the Gunfighter changes his or her option after declaring their intent. See Gunfighter shooting options in this material. Some categories require specific clothing and firearms. The Timer Operator needs to be aware of these restrictions."

 

Although these things are defined as the TO's (CRO) and/or XPO's duties, I think the PM could assign someone to assist. They are a bit much for the TO to do for every shooter, every stage.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo