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Hoss

posse size

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What do you consider the minumum , maximum and optimum posse size, for a monthly match?

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All depends on the people involved. PWB numbers are good average. That being said I've been at the far ends of what is considered Too Large and Too Small but it worked out great cause both had great workers.

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All depends on the people involved. PWB numbers are good average. That being said I've been at the far ends of what is considered Too Large and Too Small but it worked out great cause both had great workers.

Okay...outside of some "Super" posse...the numbers that PWB gave are good.

 

<_<

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PWB numbers - perfect from what we've seen.

 

Good luck, GJ

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11 - 22 - 16

 

 

 

(I'm tired of PWB always having the last word. :P )

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11 - 20 -15

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One factor I left out...depends on whether one is shooting with a club in a State/Region that doesn't feel the need for an LTO.

 

<_<

 

That's one more body needed for posse duties.

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It all depends on if its a working posse or if 25% are watching from their carts.

 

Barry Sloe

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Yeah,PWB. We use a Loading Table guy, so I was gonna say 12-20-18.

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It all depends on if its a working posse or if 25% are watching from their carts.

 

Barry Sloe

 

I've noticed that such behavior happens a lot more on larger posses. The result is that those who do work, have to work much longer.

 

On smaller posses, it becomes more obvious who is not working and they can be encouraged to work.

 

And we need to explain that this is a VOLUNTEER effort and the others are not here merely to serve you. (The I just want to shoot crowd.)

 

I know some are not able to do much, but essentially everyone can watch the unloading table and the vast majority can watch the loading table. And score keeping is an option.

 

A good score keeper can greatly assist the R.O. by watching who is working and who is not paying attention and politely ask them to do a job that fits their situation.

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I knocked out a quick time study using numbers I see at monthly matches, up through EOT conditions, using average shooting time of 30 seconds (fairly good shooters!), average stage reset/brass pickup time (1 minute 30 seconds - better hustle), number of workers required (these numbers are for no-LTO conditions - a TO, 3 spotters, scorer and one dedicated brass picker), average time to read and understand stage instructions, etc.

 

First, the back-of-the-envelope numbers:

 

For a 12-person posse:

Total time to complete each stage: 30 minutes

Percent of time each person will be busy shooting or working a job (TO, spotter, scorer, brass picker): 64%

Number of shooters that you can run through that shooting bay in an hour: 24

 

For a 15-person posse:

Total time to complete each stage: 36 minutes

Percent of time each person will be busy shooting or working a job (TO, spotter, scorer, brass picker): 55%

Number of shooters that you can run through that shooting bay in an hour: 25

 

For a 20-person posse:

Total time to complete each stage: 46 minutes

Percent of time each person will be busy shooting or working a job (TO, spotter, scorer, brass picker): 43%

Number of shooters that you can run through that shooting bay in an hour: 33

 

 

From practical experience to justify that these theoretical numbers are right, we find with small (12 or 14 person) posses, it's a killer job. Even if everyone works, you are working or shooting two-thirds of the time you are on the range! That wears on you.

 

For a 20 person posse, there is more standing around. To allow that lower amount of effort per shooter, the total time on the stage increases. If you have only 60% of the posse who will work, you need to be up toward this end of posse sizes, and accept the fact that each stage will take longer to finish. And, watch out for several folks all piling into the loading table line - that reduces the number of folks available to work the chores! But, you do run more shooters through a given number of stages in an hour with larger posses.

 

The sweet spot, with good shooters and everyone working, runs right at 15 or 16. Sweet 16, is what I normally say.

Slower shooters drives you to smaller posses. Folks on the posse who can't (or don't) work much - drives you to larger posses. Making maximum use (efficiency) of your range - drives you to larger posses.

 

No free lunch - either you can treat shooters real well (an easy match to be in) and need more bays, or hustle folks through and handle a bigger crowd. Here's hoping you all can find your happy middle ground!

 

Good luck, GJ

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It all depends on if its a working posse or if 25% are watching from their carts.

 

Barry Sloe

 

+1

 

Always the same Pards working...........ALWAYS gonna have the folks that won't work (Pet Peeve) :angry:

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Okay...outside of some "Super" posse...the numbers that PWB gave are good.

 

<_<

Well I didn't use the word super but thanks for using my point and slapping your name on it. That should drive the message home to those that were on the fence.

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good info. I think 16 is a good number too. One club I regularly shoot at will go with posses as small as 7-9, while another club generally does not split until 20+ All in all, I think 10 is about a minumum #, 20 is too many, but hard to split.

 

Small posse,everybody has to work or it becomes evident when a shooter is not pulling his freight. Big posse and its easy for the "shirkers" to hide out. Its a fine line!

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Well I didn't use the word super but thanks for using my point and slapping your name on it. That should drive the message home to those that were on the fence.

You stating the obvious...was funny...and that's what I was pokin fun at.

 

I suppose the original post should have stated something about the work ethics of the posse members...

 

;)

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You stating the obvious...was funny...and that's what I was pokin fun at.

 

I suppose the original post should have stated something about the work ethics of the posse members...

 

;)[/quote

 

I agree somewhat obvious but unmentioned until my post. Can understand why you wanted to be in my camp. The point is it's the people not the number.

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What Palewolf posted is pretty darn close.

 

Would rather have a little to big than to small.

Can enjoy it a little more than to small.

Don't like feeling rushed. And if to small. And they don't come

relieve you in a timely manor.

Then I feel rushed to load and shoot.

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36-24-36

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36-24-36

I agree, but I think you are referring to something other than posse size ;)

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36-24-36

As the Long Ranger told Tonto,

 

I said POSSE!!!

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I agree, but I think you are referring to something other than posse size ;)

 

As the Long Ranger told Tonto,

 

I said POSSE!!!

 

That's the size I want the members of my posse to have. :wub:

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It all depends on if its a working posse or if 25% are watching from their carts.

 

Barry Sloe

 

 

+1

 

Always the same Pards working...........ALWAYS gonna have the folks that won't work (Pet Peeve) :angry:

 

Reckon I'm +3

 

Wyatts' correct.. Seems it's always the same Pards workin'..

and always the same Pards shirkin' their duties..

 

I've worked my tail end off whole matches..

I now try ta work about a 3rd of the stage and quit..

 

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' the #'s PaleWolf said are ok with me tho :blush:

 

I've mentioned this before but...

We just oughta' let the non working shooters brass & hulls lay there..

Retrieve for the workers.. Might make a point :unsure: ..might not.. :blink:

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Well - what do you need at any given time to actually run a posse?

1 Shooter

1 TO

3 Spotters

 

So 4 to 5 is the minimum size you "could" operate a posse.

Not optimum minimum, but minimum.

 

What else would be nice to have?

1 target resetter

1 brass picker

1 scorekeeper

 

All the while keeping a couple folks at the loading table to keep things moving along.

 

So in all honesty - any posse under 11-12 people is pretty much going to require 100% participation 100% of the time.

Around here, we do have 11-12 person posses from time to time - but those days are not the most fun.

 

An additional 3 - 6 folks make for a much nicer day.

To give you the time to take a breather between duties and shooting; grab a bottle of water or visit the port a potti.

 

Having over 20 folks on a posse does not detract from the ability to run the posse - but can make individual stages run too long.

Not allowing a shooter to ever get "warmed up" or "in the zone" as the time between shooting is too extended.

 

As for non working posses - I guess I am lucky - I have run into very few over my time in this game.

IMO the "slow" or "non working posses" are almost always indicative of poor posse leaders.

 

A good posse leader (and when their focus must turn to being a shooter - the TO must act in their stead) staying on top of having spotters, watching to make sure the loading table is kept occupied, and reminding folks that jobs are ALWAYS traded off i.e. If you're spotting - you ARE spotting until YOU find your replacement.

Same with target resetting, brass picking or score keeping. No job abandonment.

 

Having this discussion at the first stage, before the first shot is fired - creates a team environment and encourages more folks to participate.

All the jobs have to be done by somebody and I understand that not everybody can do everything - but everybody can do something.

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Reckon I'm +3

 

Wyatts' correct.. Seems it's always the same Pards workin'..

and always the same Pards shirkin' their duties..

 

I've worked my tail end off whole matches..

I now try ta work about a 3rd of the stage and quit..

 

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' the #'s PaleWolf said are ok with me tho :blush:

 

I've mentioned this before but...

We just oughta' let the non working shooters brass & hulls lay there..

Retrieve for the workers.. Might make a point :unsure: ..might not.. :blink:

 

 

 

At a match last month. 13 on the posse. 3 did not do a dang thing.

At one point I was keeping score, spotting, resetting targets, and helping pick brass all

at the same time.

Them 3 messed with there guns and didn't do anything.

Came real close to calling them out in front of everyone. But didn't. Should have.

 

Just going to make a point to never posse with them again. But if I do. Think it is time to

call them out.

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As a TO, my magic number is 5.... I work 5 shooters and would like to hand off. That means for a 20 person posse, I do a quarter of them. Then I might spot for another few. But if I'm not getting ready to shoot soon after that, I'll be rushing to get my head and act together and not have a good stage.

 

Share the work. It's OK to say, "Well, when we get a Timer Operator (or Spotter, or Scorekeeper) we can have the next shooter come to the line". That usually blasts a couple of folks off their cart seats. :lol:

 

Good luck, GJ

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One factor I left out...depends on whether one is shooting with a club in a State/Region that doesn't feel the need for an LTO.

 

<_<

 

That's one more body needed for posse duties.

Yep, that does free up a little more help. We do use a LTO, if there are 14 on the posse there are 14 LTO per stage. Everyone knows it up front, the shooter to your right at the LT is the LTO, unless you're the last shooter then it's the shooter to your left. We take it very serious and each revlover is checked, rifle checked for hammer down, do you have shot shells...etc..etc. In fact being one on one we are problably more effective than some I've seen sitting on a stool trying to watch three shooters at the same time while telling Billy Bob how he plans to shoot the stage ;) . 11-15-20 works for me. Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

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If you should attend a monthly club match with three posses and there are sixty shooter, that should equal 20 shooters per posse.

If you should be unfortunate enough to wind up on the posse with eight or ten people who will not even perform the simplest of tasks, then your day becomes a real drag. There are clubs that adhere to the same people on the same possessing month after month that fit this scenario. I have personally ceased in attending some monthly club matches because I was expected to statistically sign up for a certain posse. Ideally I would rather shoot with a different posse every time I shoot a match.

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As a TO, my magic number is 5.... I work 5 shooters and would like to hand off. That means for a 20 person posse, I do a quarter of them. Then I might spot for another few. But if I'm not getting ready to shoot soon after that, I'll be rushing to get my head and act together and not have a good stage.

 

Share the work. It's OK to say, "Well, when we get a Timer Operator (or Spotter, or Scorekeeper) we can have the next shooter come to the line". That usually blasts a couple of folks off their cart seats. :lol:

 

Good luck, THAT

And sadly it is usually the same folks who just worked their as#es off on the previous stage and will be expected to do so on the NEXT stage.

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heres a few thangs I has lerned

1) jus cuz a shooters fast dat don't makes him/hers Clean.........have spotters dat can See

2) spotters should not be's da brass picker........dayes shood be's lookin ats da targets not whars da brass is a goin

3) thars should be's at least 3 TO's................ya gets burned out purtys quick when thars only 2

 

I's donts knows abouts all ya'lls buts I's likes 14-16 ons a possee

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If you have shooters on your posse who aren't working and YOU don't ask them to relieve you, don't expect any change.

 

If you have a really small posse of 6 to 9 shooters, it can be advantageous to shoot in shifts. Run three to five shooters then take a short pause as spotters and TO switch.

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Posse Member size of 36 - 28 - 32 is nice. ;)

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