Rule "change" - Open & Empty

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

delete

[Grizzly Dave]

I'm a rebel, I refuse to discard my long guns, I want them still. So I'll just re-stage them and take whatever penalty applies.

 

I wonder who gets to keep all the discarded long guns.

 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

I'll at least say thanks to everyone for their hard work on this.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

Really? If the "new" language in the ROI manual is the final language it doesn't address many of the issues we have been discussing the past several days. It still does not instruct us as to what constitutes discarded. If it is true that all long guns must be open and empty when discarded and you have until the next gun to correct a problem as suggested in ROI paragraph A then what circumstances could lead you to the situation described in paragraph B? If I am carefully placing my double and it closes while my hand is still touching it and I let go I have to return and open it. Same with the rifle. If I am restaging and the lever bumps the shelf or prop and closes before I let go of it I have to return and open it. However, If I throw my shotgun or rifle and it is sailing through the air and it is construed as discarded and it lands and closes I don't have to return and open it. Doesn't sound like an idea solution, but it is what it is. About the only situation I can think of where a gun is re-staged open and empty and then closes after a shooter has moved to the next gun is re-staging on a horse and the long gun rotates and closes after the shooter has moved on.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

[Widder, SASS #59054]

like many, I will continue to 'place' my rifle/shotgun open and empty on its restaging prop.

 

AND...I will remember the real definitions of what constitutes OPEN and what constitutes CLOSED.

 

IF I incur a penalty for anything still left in the longgun, welllllllll, it won't be the 1st time.

 

I'll probably survive!

 

EDIT: pick your TO wisely.....

 

 

..........WIdder

[Roy's creek Dan, SASS 73697]

Really? If the "new" language in the ROI manual is the final language it doesn't address many of the issues we have been discussing the past several days. It still does not instruct us as to what constitutes discarded. If it is true that all long guns must be open and empty when discarded and you have until the next gun to correct a problem as suggested in ROI paragraph A then what circumstances could lead you to the situation described in paragraph B? If I am carefully placing my double and it closes while my hand is still touching it and I let go I have to return and open it. Same with the rifle. If I am restaging and the lever bumps the shelf or prop and closes before I let go of it I have to return and open it. However, If I throw my shotgun or rifle and it is sailing through the air and it is construed as discarded and it lands and closes I don't have to return and open it. Doesn't sound like an idea solution, but it is what it is. About the only situation I can think of where a gun is re-staged open and empty and then closes after a shooter has moved to the next gun is re-staging on a horse and the long gun rotates and closes after the shooter has moved on.

Larsen

I'm with ya. but I guess I'm OK because I throw my rifle down every time. This is one of the things we tried to avoid in the first place at Branson.....

RCD

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I like Pale Wolf's "rule" in post 293. If that is what the ROI instructions/examples said we would have zero problems.

[Brother King, SASS #69031]

This page intentionally left blank.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Sounds like we are back where started in 2013 to me.

[Roy's creek Dan, SASS 73697]

Sounds like we are back where started in 2013 to me.

Yep

What is open and what is closed

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

And the PM says, "OK posse, would someone PLEASE take the timer, it's a wonderful job and the pay is great. ....yea, so it was easier last month than it is this month.... NEXT SHOOTER!"

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I'm stoopid...need help:

 

Long guns will be discarded with their actions left open and the actions/magazine/barrels
empty at the conclusion of each shooting string. A 10-second minor safety penalty will be
assessed if the firearm is not cleared and opened. This condition may be corrected prior to
the next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to
it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of
sequence, made “safe,” and then restaged.
Examples:
A Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it before firing the next gun and there is no
UNFIRED round in the chamber — NO CALL.
B. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it at the end of the stage and an empty case/hull
is ejected or found in the action or chamber — Minor Safety Violation.
C. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it, and a live/unfired round is ejected or in the
chamber — Stage DQ for a long gun having left the shooter’s hand with the action
closed, hammer cocked, with a live round in the chamber. In this case there is no
opportunity to return to open it if called back before being committed to the next firearm
— the penalty applies the moment it left the shooter’s hand.
Should someone other than the competitor opens the action of the gun, any penalties
that would have been incurred are still applied.
18. A live round left in the chamber constitutes a Stage Disqualification.

 

Can someone tell me where it says it's okay to open a closed long gun after the end of stage (where the long gun wasn't the last gun shot), and not incur a penalty?

 

I don't see it...

 

Help!!!!!

 

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

I'm stoopid...need help:

 

Long guns will be discarded with their actions left open and the actions/magazine/barrels

empty at the conclusion of each shooting string. A 10-second minor safety penalty will be

assessed if the firearm is not cleared and opened. This condition may be corrected prior to

the next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to

it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of

sequence, made safe, and then restaged.

Examples:

A Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it before firing the next gun and there is no

UNFIRED round in the chamber NO CALL.

B. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it at the end of the stage and an empty case/hull

is ejected or found in the action or chamber Minor Safety Violation.

C. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it, and a live/unfired round is ejected or in the

chamber Stage DQ for a long gun having left the shooters hand with the action

closed, hammer cocked, with a live round in the chamber. In this case there is no

opportunity to return to open it if called back before being committed to the next firearm

the penalty applies the moment it left the shooters hand.

Should someone other than the competitor opens the action of the gun, any penalties

that would have been incurred are still applied.

18. A live round left in the chamber constitutes a Stage Disqualification.

 

Can someone tell me where it says it's okay to open a closed long gun after the end of stage (where the long gun wasn't the last gun shot), and not incur a penalty?

 

I don't see it...

 

Help!!!!!

 

I guess that since that example was not given there must not be a penalty assigned for that occurrence.

 

It boils down to this.....restage the gun open and empty.

 

I would say that discarded would be when you let go of the long gun. Just like you have until you let go of the long gun at the unloading table to clear it when it's the last gun used.

 

We have clear definitions of open and closed actions and there is no double jeopardy for leaving an empty in the long gun as long as the action is open so I'm fine with this.

 

Stan

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I'm stoopid...need help:

 

Long guns will be discarded with their actions left open and the actions/magazine/barrels

empty at the conclusion of each shooting string. A 10-second minor safety penalty will be

assessed if the firearm is not cleared and opened. This condition may be corrected prior to

the next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to

it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of

sequence, made “safe,” and then restaged.

Examples:

A Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it before firing the next gun and there is no

UNFIRED round in the chamber — NO CALL.

B. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it at the end of the stage and an empty case/hull

is ejected or found in the action or chamber — Minor Safety Violation.

C. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it, and a live/unfired round is ejected or in the

chamber — Stage DQ for a long gun having left the shooter’s hand with the action

closed, hammer cocked, with a live round in the chamber. In this case there is no

opportunity to return to open it if called back before being committed to the next firearm

— the penalty applies the moment it left the shooter’s hand.

Should someone other than the competitor opens the action of the gun, any penalties

that would have been incurred are still applied.

18. A live round left in the chamber constitutes a Stage Disqualification.

 

Can someone tell me where it says it's okay to open a closed long gun after the end of stage (where the long gun wasn't the last gun shot), and not incur a penalty?

 

I don't see it...

 

Help!!!!!

 

There is no help.......

It isn't there.

[Santa Fe River Stan,36999L]

There is no help.......

It isn't there.

How can you apply a penalty that doesn't exist?

 

Stan

[C0ckr0ach, SASS #26100]

My analysis - No opinion - interested in the analysis of others.

 

Open and Closed are appropriately defined in RO I, Page 29

 

The current Rule appears in the Handbook, #6, page 21; RO I, #6, page 13 and RO I, #17, page 17 - in the latest versions.

 

The Rule in Handbook, #6, page 21 and RO I, #6, page 13 are identical

 

The Rule in RO I, #17, page 17 is different, but similar.

 

The word "discarded" is the result of the action "discard".

 

The word "discarding' is the process of the action "discard"

 

The usual definition of discarded is giving up control of something. But that is not described in the Rule or the Glossary.

 

Does the shooter give up control when the long gun leaves the shooters hand or is control given up when the shooter shoots the next firearm ?

 

The language in The Rule in Handbook, #6, page 21 and RO I, #6, page 13 seems to imply "discarded" is when the long gun leaves the shooters hands.

 

The language in the Rule in RO I, #17, page 17 seems to imply "discarded" is when the shooter shoots the next fire arm or leaves the shooters hand at the unloading table.

[Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L]

I'm stoopid...need help:

 

Long guns will be discarded with their actions left open and the actions/magazine/barrels

empty at the conclusion of each shooting string. A 10-second minor safety penalty will be

assessed if the firearm is not cleared and opened. This condition may be corrected prior to

the next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to

it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of

sequence, made “safe,” and then restaged.

Examples:

A Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it before firing the next gun and there is no

UNFIRED round in the chamber — NO CALL.

B. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it at the end of the stage and an empty case/hull

is ejected or found in the action or chamber — Minor Safety Violation.

C. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it, and a live/unfired round is ejected or in the

chamber — Stage DQ for a long gun having left the shooter’s hand with the action

closed, hammer cocked, with a live round in the chamber. In this case there is no

opportunity to return to open it if called back before being committed to the next firearm

— the penalty applies the moment it left the shooter’s hand.

Should someone other than the competitor opens the action of the gun, any penalties

that would have been incurred are still applied.

18. A live round left in the chamber constitutes a Stage Disqualification.

 

Can someone tell me where it says it's okay to open a closed long gun after the end of stage (where the long gun wasn't the last gun shot), and not incur a penalty?

 

I don't see it...

 

Help!!!!!

 

From the Shooters Handbook;

6. Long guns will be discarded open and empty with their barrels pointed safely down range. If

the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied, the shooter will, at the

conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or spotter. Appropriate additional

penalties will be applied if it is not clear. No one other than the competitor may handle the

gun in question.

[El Muerto Negro]

Let's not have ten more pages. It's simple take the original rule. And think of the times you went back to your long gun and it was closed. If no one saw the gun closed and it was empty it's a no call. If the TO notice that it's closed and your hand was still touching it he will call you back. I think the don't be a hard ass applies.

 

EMN

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

 

From the Shooters Handbook;

6. Long guns will be discarded open and empty with their barrels pointed safely down range. If

the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied, the shooter will, at the

conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or spotter. Appropriate additional

penalties will be applied if it is not clear. No one other than the competitor may handle the

gun in question.

 

I see...I was going by the RO1 handbook...which seems different.

[Grizzly Dave]

I'm stoopid...need help:

 

...

 

 

Finally we agree on something!!!!!!!! :D

 

You didn't really expect me to pass that up did ya?

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Let's not have ten more pages. It's simple take the original rule. And think of the times you went back to your long gun and it was closed. If no one saw the gun closed and it was empty it's a no call. If the TO notice that it's closed and your hand was still touching it he will call you back. I think the don't be a hard ass applies.

 

EMN

 

I think that is true. Of course it somewhat denigrates safety but . . .

 

To clarify, you or the T.O. thinks the action may have closed,

so you stop what you are doing, handling another gun, running to the next position, whatever,

so you put the other gun down,

 

run back to a safe gun and open it up,

 

trip and fall,

 

 

then run back to the last position, forget what you are doing,

 

pull a gun and now have a confused shooter with a loaded gun, a confused R.O. and

 

well, I fee SOO much safer now...

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

in other words, the WB and ROC could not come to a consensus before EOT..IMHO

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

There once was a Monkey...and he had a football...

 

He loved his football...

 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

There once was a Monkey...and he had a football...

 

He loved his football...

 

That just a just about sums it up. But I think there was another monkey who got jealous and tried to take that football to love hisown self.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Maybe I'm just confused If the long gun is closed and empty it is still a 10 second MSV, right??

ROI Stage Conventions

6. Long guns will be discarded open and empty with their barrels pointed safely down range. If

the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied, the shooter will, at the

conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or spotter. Appropriate additional

penalties will be applied if it is not clear. No one other than the competitor may handle the

gun in question.

 

ROI page 17

17. Long guns will be discarded with their actions left open and the actions/magazine/barrels

empty at the conclusion of each shooting string. A 10-second minor safety penalty will be

assessed if the firearm is not cleared and opened. This condition may be corrected prior to

the next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to

it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of

sequence, made “safe,” and then restaged.

 

J R-E

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Maybe I'm just confused If the long gun is closed and empty it is still a 10 second MSV, right??

ROI Stage Conventions

6. Long guns will be discarded open and empty with their barrels pointed safely down range. If

the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied, the shooter will, at the

conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or spotter. Appropriate additional

penalties will be applied if it is not clear. No one other than the competitor may handle the

gun in question.

 

ROI page 17

17. Long guns will be discarded with their actions left open and the actions/magazine/barrels

empty at the conclusion of each shooting string. A 10-second minor safety penalty will be

assessed if the firearm is not cleared and opened. This condition may be corrected prior to

the next round being fired. If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to

it leaving the shooters hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of

sequence, made “safe,” and then restaged.

 

J R-E

Shooter's Handbook sez something different...I think...

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Shooter's Handbook sez something different...I think...

Hmmm Yep, it sure does

Shooters Handbook Stage conventions page 21

6. Long guns will be discarded open and empty with their barrels pointed safely down range. If

the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied, the shooter will, at the

conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or spotter. Appropriate additional

penalties will be applied if it is not clear. No one other than the competitor may handle the

gun in question.

 

Shooters Handbook page 21 says see RO I for further clarification

If the action of a long gun closes after being discarded open and empty, the shooter will, at the conclusion of the

stage, show it to be clear to the TO or a spotter. Appropriate penalties will be applied if it is

not clear. No one other than the competitor may handle the gun in question. See RO-I for

further clarification.

 

J R-E

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

So regardless of how the lever becomes closed, if it is not cleared prior to shooting the next gun it is a minor safety?

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

So regardless of how the lever becomes closed, if it is not cleared prior to shooting the next gun it is a minor safety?

definitely maybe.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

So regardless of how the lever becomes closed, if it is not cleared prior to shooting the next gun it is a minor safety?

Go here http://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/RO-I%20Vers%2019_8.pdf

 

Go to page 17, paragraph 17, read, interpret and apply.

[Wyatt]

I'm gonna save me a headache tonight.

 

I'll just have Stan splain it to me tomorrow

[Blastmaster]

There will be approximate 30+ posses at EOT. Each posse will probably have apprroximate six+ TO's working the line and countless combination of spotters throughout the match. Each TO/counter/buddy will have a varying understanding of what the rules were/could've been/what is on the books/ or what is said at the safety meeting. Will your ox be gored if your action closes,,,, or your competition action closes but they are not called?

 

About the only way to weave through that mine field is to make sure you discard your long guns open & empty,,, but that takes time.. How lucky do you feel? Some pick their posses members wisely.

[Hells Comin]

There once was a Monkey...and he had a football...

 

He loved

 

come on say what you really mean 😈And yes I agree!

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

I'm gonna save me a headache tonight.

 

I'll just have Stan splain it to me tomorrow

After he does, will you pass the splaination on?