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Rule "change" - Open & Empty


Misty Moonshine

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The ROC is working on it.....I'm sure the "back and forth" that is going on would make our heads swim. I don't envy their jobs and I sure do appreciate their their efforts to improve our game that we all love so much. At this point we just need to sit back and let it happen.

 

TA, PWB and the entire EOT officiating crew will do their damnedest to make sure the match is a consistent as possible and let's be realistic in the fact that it won't be 100% and not just for this issue. NO match is 100% and that's a fact we will never get around......

 

For all you guys and gals going to EOT.....restage your guns just like we have for years....Open and Empty.......and you won't have a darn thing to worry about. At the end of the day y'all will be there having fun and the rest of us will be wishing we were there sitting around the fire with you complaining about this stupid rule.....instead of at work.

 

Stan

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The ROC is working on it.....I'm sure the "back and forth" that is going on would make our heads swim. I don't envy their jobs and I sure do appreciate their their efforts to improve our game that we all love so much. At this point we just need to sit back and let it happen.

 

TA, PWB and the entire EOT officiating crew will do their damnedest to make sure the match is a consistent as possible and let's be realistic in the fact that it won't be 100% and not just for this issue. NO match is 100% and that's a fact we will never get around......

 

For all you guys and gals going to EOT.....restage your guns just like we have for years....Open and Empty.......and you won't have a darn thing to worry about. At the end of the day y'all will be there having fun and the rest of us will be wishing we were there sitting around the fire with you complaining about this stupid rule.....instead of at work.

 

Stan

What's this w*rk you speak of? I've seen you at work before....in a boat offshore holding up a red snapper...a nice one too :lol: Ya'll got any openings Stan....I need a job like yours!

 

Kajun

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We had a few guns close upon restaging this past weekend at Hell On Wheels. Not a big deal just called the shooters back to open them and show clear when they were done shooting. The rule worked as originally intended. It's a good rule.

 

Assassin

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We had a few guns close upon restaging this past weekend at Hell On Wheels. Not a big deal just called the shooters back to open them and show clear. The rule worked as originally intended. It's a good rule.

 

Assassin

I agree...this idea of "Discarded" essentially applies to about .001% of real life happenings. I think those that are worried about folks intentionally closing their LG's are worrying about something just so rare that the "Cure" is more harmful then the disease.

 

Phantom

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We had a few guns close upon restaging this past weekend at Hell On Wheels. Not a big deal just called the shooters back to open them and show clear when they were done shooting. The rule worked as originally intended. It's a good rule.

 

Assassin

I am not trying to be "cute" here because I really am confused...but, were you not following new rule (1/1-6/1) not NEW, new rule?

 

Disregarding someone with intent (this, like Creeker, I will take issue with), perhaps I am reading something into this whole mess that is not there. Again, i am confused, however I am satisfied that, as SF Stan mentions, all will be made clear by PWB, TA, and crew at EOT. Well, at least clear for EOT, and, as PM, that is my concern for now. bb

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I am not trying to be "cute" here because I really am confused...but, were you not following new rule (1/1-6/1) not NEW, new rule?

 

Disregarding someone with intent (this, like Creeker, I will take issue with), perhaps I am reading something into this whole mess that is not there. Again, i am confused, however I am satisfied that, as SF Stan mentions, all will be made clear by PWB, TA, and crew at EOT. Well, at least clear for EOT, and, as PM, that is my concern for now. bb

My interpretation of the rule is "shooter must clear long gun before restaging(just as we have always had to do), if long gun accidentally closes when restaging to the table/prop/rack and the action closes it's a no call. And, the shooter must go back to closed long gun and show clear after the shooting string." I believe the latest rule rewording was to disallow intentional closing of the action before restaging. Not trying to argue, just my interpretation. Heck, I was too busy running a match, did something else change in the last 3 or 4 days? This is the wrong time of the year to be making changes to rules.

 

Assassin

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A,

Hope you are correct, and if so, I really have been reading too much into the newest version.

bb

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My interpretation of the rule is "shooter must clear long gun before restaging(just as we have always had to do), if long gun accidentally closes when restaging to the table/prop/rack and the action closes it's a no call. And, the shooter must go back to closed long gun and show clear after the shooting string." I believe the latest rule rewording was to disallow intentional closing of the action before restaging. Not trying to argue, just my interpretation. Heck, I was too busy running a match, did something else change in the last 3 or 4 days? This is the wrong time of the year to be making changes to rules.

 

Assassin

Those two words are not anywhere in the "discard" rule. Nor were they in the rule that was passed in December.

In your statement.....

Is it accidental or intentional if a shooter throws/drops his long gun at/on the prop and it closes?

Is it accidental or intentional if a shooter holds his double by the barrel while re-staging vertically and it closes?

Who get's to make the instantaneous call of accidental or intentional?

 

The "discard" rule assigns a 10 sec penalty if the long gun is discarded closed and another 10 sec penalty if there is an empty in it and it is not corrected before the next gun is fired. If action is open when discarded and a live round on the carrier the shooter receives a 10 second penalty for not discarding the gun open and EMPTY and another 10 sec penalty for the live round at the end of the stage.

(The rule has terrible structure. I am sure that was not the "intent" but that is what the words say.

 

The TO must examining the action of all long guns closely to make sure that they are indeed closed, before yelling at the shooter to return and open it. This, many times, results in shooters running back UP range to correct the situation.

 

You can certainly read things differently in the words that are published but it will not change the confusion on the range one someone with a different mindset is running the timer.

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We had a few guns close upon restaging this past weekend at Hell On Wheels. Not a big deal just called the shooters back to open them and show clear when they were done shooting. The rule worked as originally intended. It's a good rule.

 

Assassin

Basically I ran a clock for 1/4-1/3 of a posse at Hell On Wheels... .12 stages 2 days (which BTW was one Hell of a Match!) I had to call 3 shooters back to the S/G to show clear. Big deal.

 

Two were on horizontal stage horse props where if you re-staged the gun then and the butt hit the prop first and it closed as the shooter wedged it in the notches then the gun simply closed. ACCIDENTAL? ON PURPOSE? WHO CARES!

 

The other was a flat table and when the shooter re-staged the rifle next to it, it bumped the S/G enough to close it. Again, NO BIG DEAL.....

 

This is like arguing over the footwear rule, the Cross draw rule, the leather rule, the stitching on B-Western boots rule, the size of rowels on spurs rule, the lug sole rule.... NOT one of them is ever going to be enforced on review anyway....

 

Let's get back to shooting.

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Basically I ran a clock for 1/4-1/3 of a posse at Hell On Wheels... .12 stages 2 days (which BTW was one Hell of a Match!) I had to call 3 shooters back to the S/G to show clear. Big deal.

 

Two were on horizontal stage horse props where if you re-staged the gun then and the butt hit the prop first and it closed as the shooter wedged it in the notches then the gun simply closed. ACCIDENTAL? ON PURPOSE? WHO CARES!

 

The other was a flat table and when the shooter re-staged the rifle next to it, it bumped the S/G enough to close it. Again, NO BIG DEAL.....

 

This is like arguing over the footwear rule, the Cross draw rule, the leather rule, the stitching on B-Western boots rule, the size of rowels on spurs rule, the lug sole rule.... NOT one of them is ever going to be enforced on review anyway....

 

Let's get back to shooting.

 

Well...I guess that settles that...I'll quit working on this for EoT.

 

<_<

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My interpretation of the rule is "shooter must clear long gun before restaging(just as we have always had to do), if long gun accidentally closes when restaging to the table/prop/rack and the action closes it's a no call. And, the shooter must go back to closed long gun and show clear after the shooting string." I believe the latest rule rewording was to disallow intentional closing of the action before restaging. Not trying to argue, just my interpretation. Heck, I was too busy running a match, did something else change in the last 3 or 4 days? This is the wrong time of the year to be making changes to rules.

 

Assassin

Hopefully that's the case.

If that's what the new rule will be? Why all the drama and no clear answer from management? This leads me to believe its not going to be that simple?

Regards,

Ringer

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Well...I guess that settles that...I'll quit working on this for EoT.

 

<_<

Not allowed! Please fix it before EOT. I really liked not having to worry about folks Actions & levers:)

Regards,

Ringer

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Well...I guess that settles that...I'll quit working on this for EoT.

 

<_<

At the risk of being accused of 'over the top'... and the dreaded BLACK BOOK by ROC/ W2OW the simple test of "VAGUENESS" applies here to wit:

In American constitutional law, a statute is void for vagueness and unenforceable if it is too vague for the average citizen to understand. There are several reasons a statute may be considered vague; in general, a statute might be called void for vagueness reasons when an average citizen cannot generally determine what persons are regulated, what conduct is prohibited, or what punishment may be imposed.

 

This topic thread is now 7 pages and its seester thread was 12 arguing over the definition of the conjugated past tense use of "discard-ed" as well as "intentional", "accidental" and others less important.

 

I don't mean to imply that the efforts of the ROC/WB and all on the WAHR are spurious (that's 'useless' in DC) and I would only suggest that we already have a simple test, a simple rule, one that has already been tested and works flawlessly over in WBAS.

 

Let's just adopt it and move on. This re-inventing the wheel out of whole cloth in order to avoid seeming to be copy-cats has been an incredible waste of energy and hurt feelings.

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My interpretation of the rule is "shooter must clear long gun before restaging(just as we have always had to do), if long gun accidentally closes when restaging to the table/prop/rack and the action closes it's a no call. And, the shooter must go back to closed long gun and show clear after the shooting string." I believe the latest rule rewording was to disallow intentional closing of the action before restaging. Not trying to argue, just my interpretation. Heck, I was too busy running a match, did something else change in the last 3 or 4 days? This is the wrong time of the year to be making changes to rules.

 

Assassin

That is also the way that I see it. If it hits a window sill or someone bumps it or this or that... the main thing is that it was re-stage (discarded) open and empty... if something makes it close after that, then there is no penalty unless it has a spend or loaded round in it.

 

Snakebite

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Brother King and others: Thank you for the kind words about the WBAS rules. We try hard to be fair and sensible. But, after 10+ years as a CAS Territorial Governor, I can see no possibility of CAS adopting our rules. :(

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That is also the way that I see it. If it hits a window sill or someone bumps it or this or that... the main thing is that it was re-stage (discarded) open and empty... if something makes it close after that, then there is no penalty unless it has a spend or loaded round in it.

 

Snakebite

+1

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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What is the WB rule for open/closed long gun?

I don't shoot WB...here's the section that I think applies:

 

• After the shooting string, rifles are made safe with muzzle down range and action

open.

• Safe conditions of rifle during a course of fire are as follows:

• Safe to leave the shooters hands.

– Empty of live ammunition, action open

– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged for

further use)

 

However, I do see some issue with these rules...since it distinguishes between "after the shooting string" and "During a course of Fire".

Hmmmm...

But, there is no mention of discard!

;)

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I don't shoot WB...here's the section that I think applies:

 

• After the shooting string, rifles are made safe with muzzle down range and action

open.

• Safe conditions of rifle during a course of fire are as follows:

• Safe to leave the shooters hands.

– Empty of live ammunition, action open

– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (restaged for

further use)

 

However, I do see some issue with these rules...since it distinguishes between "after the shooting string" and "During a course of Fire".

Hmmmm...

But, there is no mention of discard!

;)

 

Could fix it with a quick re-arrange and a little edit...

Safe conditions of rifle during a course of fire are as follows:

• After the shooting string, rifles are made safe with muzzle down range and action

open.

• Safe to leave the shooters hands.

– Empty of live ammunition, action open

– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (staged / restaged for

further use)

 

I thought a discard was a card you didn't want any more, or am I mixing up my games? :D

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Could fix it with a quick re-arrange and a little edit...

Safe conditions of rifle during a course of fire are as follows:

• After the shooting string, rifles are made safe with muzzle down range and action

open.

• Safe to leave the shooters hands.

– Empty of live ammunition, action open

– Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or spent round, action closed (staged / restaged for

further use)

 

I thought a discard was a card you didn't want any more, or am I mixing up my games? :D

OR...since it works you could just leave it alone.

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OR...since it works you could just leave it alone.

Just re-arranged it to make it read better, didn't change the meaning (as I understood it) one bit.

 

Last thing I want is to need an iPhone with a SASS rules app to figure out what, if anything to call. Make it as clear as possible, as simple as possible and lets go shoot!

 

EDIT, oh, and King, you need to add your 1st at HOW 2014 to your signature. Congrats

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WBAS rules are written the way they are for a number of reasons. All are discussed in the WBAS RO course. I don't expect any edits or re-writes. One thing you might notice: It is a NO CALL to leave an expended case in an open long gun in WBAS. Since I don't expect CAS to adopt our wording I see no reason to spend a lot of time discussing our rules here, but I hope for the best outcome from this episode. I enjoy CAS and hope this incident doesn't cause lasting resentment. We all try to do our best and not everyone agrees with the outcome.

 

Bro. King. See you Friday !!!!

Phantom, nice to meet you last year at EOT. I hope we meet again this year. Fun talking to you.

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WBAS rules are written the way they are for a number of reasons. All are discussed in the WBAS RO course. I don't expect any edits or re-writes. One thing you might notice: It is a NO CALL to leave an expended case in an open long gun in WBAS. Since I don't expect CAS to adopt our wording I see no reason to spend a lot of time discussing our rules here, but I hope for the best outcome from this episode. I enjoy CAS and hope this incident doesn't cause lasting resentment. We all try to do our best and not everyone agrees with the outcome.

 

Bro. King. See you Friday !!!!

Phantom, nice to meet you last year at EOT. I hope we meet again this year. Fun talking to you.

I'll be there - see ya in a little over a week ;)

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Fellow SASS Members:

 

Over the past month, several issues have highlighted the difference between "intent" and what is actually "legal" under SASS competition rules. Vague, unclear rules can only lead to unhappy competitors- and so we (The Wild Bunch & The RO Committee) all have a goal to make our rules as accurate and "air-tight" as possible.

 

The Wild Bunch's understanding is the Territorial Governors voted to give "some forgiveness" in the case a long gun closes after being discarded open and empty. The Handbook and RO documents published after the Summit in January reflect this understanding . and (dare I say) intent.

 

Finding a closed long gun action at the end of a stage is a rare event; an exception, really. How the long gun came to be closed IS important. The rare, accidental closing is a safety issue the TGs were willing to condone, however, the practice of intentionally closing a long gun and setting it down is not a practice the Wild Bunch Board of Directors are willing to condone. The rule for discarding a long gun has long been "open and empty," and must remain as such.

 

It is my sincere hope that we can all "put this to bed" and move forward as a positive, collective representation of SASS. The final text/rule is reflected in the most recent version of the handbooks and RO documents.

 

Thank you all for your patience and understanding.

 

On behalf of The Wild Bunch & the SASS RO Committee,

 

Misty Moonshine

 

 

"Put it to bed"??? Not with this crowd!!! :lol: Rye

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UPDATE - 17 JUN 2014

 

Resolution may be near at hand.

Final position statement and appropriate edits have been submitted for review.

Someone with the authority to do so will post notification ASAP once/IF approved by all involved parties.

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AWSOME PWB!!!

 

Let's hope that whatever comes of all of this, Bro King doesn't start quoting "The Law" again.

 

NOW, why can't we shoot Wild Bunch category in all SASS main matches?? (Hey, just thought we start a new knock-down, drag-out fight since this one "may" be over with).

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AWSOME PWB!!!

 

Let's hope that whatever comes of all of this, Bro King doesn't start quoting "The Law" again.

 

NOW, why can't we shoot Wild Bunch category in all SASS main matches?? (Hey, just thought we start a new knock-down, drag-out fight since this one "may" be over with).

 

Dan,

 

I've seen you shoot GF. TWO 1911's, one in each hand, would only slow you down..... :lol::lol::lol:

 

 

..........Widder

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I've actually got a double shoulder rig backed up by a "New York Reload" holster...I should be allowed to shoot WBGFJoseyWalesOutlaw category...with the mags stoked to 7 rounds and a .38 rifle with ammo that meets WB PF...using BP.

 

Hows THAT for takin' a side turn? ;)

 

NewYorkReload-M.jpg

 

 

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