Widder, SASS #59054 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - No reason given Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - No reason given One pill makes you larger And one pill makes you small And the pills the doctor gives you make you calm, lower your BP.... Hope you have a great day! I'll take that 1st pill......... ..........Widder Link to comment
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 One pill makes you larger And one pill makes you small And the pills the doctor gives you make you calm, lower your BP.... Hope you have a great day! Hopefully, not below the smoke standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - No reason given Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - No reason given A solution that would make me happy is to outlaw all verticle staging. The double shooter is no longer at a disadvantage and we live with the "OLD" rule that we have dealt with since I became involved. Rifle and shotgun are restaged (not dropped, not thrown down) open and empty. If they close under careful handling then they must be opened before continuing. Link to comment
Krazy Kajun Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - No reason given Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - No reason given One pill makes you larger And one pill makes you small And the pills the doctor gives you make you calm, lower your BP.... Hope you have a great day! Ah....shades of "White Rabbit" Link to comment
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 A solution that would make me happy is to outlaw all verticle staging. The double shooter is no longer at a disadvantage and we live with the "OLD" rule that we have dealt with since I became involved. Rifle and shotgun are restaged (not dropped, not thrown down) open and empty. If they close under careful handling then they must be opened before continuing. We see the problem with horizontal staging as well and a wide variety of tables, with sides, etc. So I understand your concern, but believe your suggestion would be only a partial solution and one that would limit stage design more than I would like to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 As long as the gun is empty it is better than calling a shooter back to open a lever that isn't really closed. I agree. I've seen too many more serious safety violations as a result of the added confusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hells Comin Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Why not divide open/closed into 2 categories- vertical and horizontal? I feel we could resolve the horizontal staging rather quickly. Then after Eot hash out vertical staging. ( I believe there is no vertical staging at Eot) what do you think ? Don't be mean I'm new😇 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Why not divide open/closed into 2 categories- vertical and horizontal? I feel we could resolve the horizontal staging rather quickly. Then after Eot hash out vertical staging. ( I believe there is no vertical staging at Eot) what do you think ? Don't be mean I'm new New to what? At your advanced age how can anything be new? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - No reason given Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - No reason given One pill makes you larger And one pill makes you small And the pills the doctor gives you make you calm, lower your BP.... Hope you have a great day! There are pills that make you small?????????? Heavens to Betsy! Link to comment
Gold Canyon Kid #43974 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - No reason given Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, June 15, 2014 - No reason given There are pills that make you small?????????? Heavens to Betsy! Those are the pills that make you small after the little blue ones make you large for too long. Link to comment
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 How about we either enact the rule that was voted on and approved or Return to the rule that existed prior to this debacle or Accept that it is the Wild Bunch's game and any input that "we" thought we had in this game was an illusion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 How about we either enact the rule that was voted on and approved or Return to the rule that existed prior to this debacle or Accept that it is the Wild Bunch's game and any input that "we" thought we had in this game was an illusion It would help if someone would teach "whoever" that words are important and a good portion of everyone else will never understand your "intent" unless you are concise in what you say. How long have we been arguing the word "infringed"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 ...the meds have kicked in...off to the RANGE for the day. (when I come back, I fully expect to see some comments about handling firearms while on drugs...and I'll address them upon my return) Dude..........wouldn't want to harsh your mellow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capt. Billy Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Good God guys, we don't need a Philadelphia lawyer to judge whether or not it was a shooters intent to lay the gun down in an open position or not. If after the last shot he opens the gun and it closes as he puts it down..if it's empty when he is called back to the gun after the stage is finished, it's a no call. If the shooter closes the gun before laying it down (as in closing the lever on a rifle, or closing a double barrel, or pushing the pump forward on a '97) it should be a minor safety call or a failure to follow procedure call or spirit of the game call. It's pretty simple to me. Open the gun, put it down.. if it closes, you're called back to open it after the stage is completed. If it's clear, no call. What is the problem?... I think we've beaten this one to death, let it die in peace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 How about we either enact the rule that was voted on and approved or Return to the rule that existed prior to this debacle or Accept that it is the Wild Bunch's game and any input that "we" thought we had in this game was an illusion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Good God guys, we don't need a Philadelphia lawyer to judge whether or not it was a shooters intent to lay the gun down in an open position or not. If after the last shot he opens the gun and it closes as he puts it down..if it's empty when he is called back to the gun after the stage is finished, it's a no call. If the shooter closes the gun before laying it down (as in closing the lever on a rifle, or closing a double barrel, or pushing the pump forward on a '97) it should be a minor safety call or a failure to follow procedure call or spirit of the game call. It's pretty simple to me. Open the gun, put it down.. if it closes, you're called back to open it after the stage is completed. If it's clear, no call. What is the problem?... I think we've beaten this one to death, let it die in peace. You need to read the NEW "DISCARDED" rule on page 17 of the shooters handbook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Good God guys, we don't need a Philadelphia lawyer to judge whether or not it was a shooters intent to lay the gun down in an open position or not. If after the last shot he opens the gun and it closes as he puts it down..if it's empty when he is called back to the gun after the stage is finished, it's a no call. If the shooter closes the gun before laying it down (as in closing the lever on a rifle, or closing a double barrel, or pushing the pump forward on a '97) it should be a minor safety call or a failure to follow procedure call or spirit of the game call. It's pretty simple to me. Open the gun, put it down.. if it closes, you're called back to open it after the stage is completed. If it's clear, no call. What is the problem?... I think we've beaten this one to death, let it die in peace. Can someone quote me the rule that shows this would be a failure to follow procedure call or a spirit of the game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Oh... And adding in the pages from the other thread, this makes 15 pages so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 they are working on this, do you really think they check in here to check for opinions...they know it's a mess, that's why it is taking some time to try to hammer it out..... sorry if im a tad short,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slick McClade Posted June 15, 2014 Share Posted June 15, 2014 Never mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Firearm safety is of the utmost importance, right? The safest way to re-stage a long gun is open. It does not matter if it is empty or not. Action open it can not fire. Has a long gun ever fired when action is closed and trigger not pulled? Yes, they have. Then why take a chance if you can prevent it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Firearm safety is of the utmost importance, right? The safest way to re-stage a long gun is open. It does not matter if it is empty or not. Action open it can not fire. Has a long gun ever fired when action is closed and trigger not pulled? Yes, they have. Then why take a chance if you can prevent it. Good reason to scrap this latest rule and go back to the way it was before the convention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I'm sure that if we try reeeeeeally hard...we can make this game 100% safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Phantom, I was stating why the wording was changed. In my opinion of course. How safe do you want it? Or how much less safe would be ok? Just asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Four Bucks #36386 Life Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Firearm safety is of the utmost importance, right? The safest way to re-stage a long gun is open. It does not matter if it is empty or not. Action open it can not fire. Has a long gun ever fired when action is closed and trigger not pulled? Yes, they have. Then why take a chance if you can prevent it. Then...ummm...are we gonna open our revolvers before we re-holster them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 While what Blue Wolf says is true, it is extremely rare - almost unheard of, but theoretically possible. For another instance, you could have a major earthquake happening while you are shooting the stage. Have you ever seen it? It is possible, though. But the old rule caused many more safety issues than a gun left alone. With the old rule, we had folks rushing back to open the action of any empty long gun. Dropping guns, slipping and falling. You have to Getting confused on the rest of the stage, etc. Those are not rare, they happen often with the old rule. The new rule actually improved safety significantly. To maintain safety, we must analyze the entire situation, not just one isolated action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Phantom, I was stating why the wording was changed. In my opinion of course. How safe do you want it? Or how much less safe would be ok? Just asking. Reasonably safe... But really, you should be answering that question yourself. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 You have a better chance of being injured driving to and from a match than shooting the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Four Bucks #36386 Life Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Wasn't trying to be a smart@@s above. It's just that rifles are "staged" closed and we know they are loaded! But we stage them safely inside the 170. If you put a long gun back down, open or closed, if it breaks the 170, there is a rule for that. If it doesn't...it is SAFE! Revolvers go back to leather without opening...because that is a presumed safe direction. If you re-holster without staying inside the allowable parameters, there are rules and penalties for that. The bottom line here is that "someone" did not like the presumed loophole that allowed intentional closing for vertical re-staging and changed the verbiage without considering the big picture effect of their terminology. Hope they figure it out soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Firearm safety is of the utmost importance, right? The safest way to re-stage a long gun is open. It does not matter if it is empty or not. Action open it can not fire. Has a long gun ever fired when action is closed and trigger not pulled? Yes, they have. Then why take a chance if you can prevent it. Firearm safety has ZERO to do with it. "Somebody" was upset that a rule had unintended consequences. I direct you to the statement from Misty... Finding a closed long gun action at the end of a stage is a rare event; an exception, really. How the long gun came to be closed IS important. The rare, accidental closing is a safety issue the TGs were willing to condone, however, the practice of intentionally closing a long gun and setting it down is not a practice the Wild Bunch Board of Directors are willing to condone. The rule for discarding a long gun has long been "open and empty," and must remain as such. So to paraphrase - the ACCIDENTAL closing of a discarded firearm is super duper okay. It's perfectly fine to have a firearm with hammer back, action closed and in a state of load - that nobody on the range is 100% certain of. No problem - we will simply check it out after the stage and assign appropriate penalties - if any. BUT the deliberate, intentional closing of a firearm - an action that would only happen under pretty specific circumstances. By a shooter that is doing so AFTER they have cleared it deliberately to comply with these pretty specific conditions and circumstance. This firearm is dangerous, hazardous and cannot be handled in the EXACT same way as the accidental closed one. Common sense says If the rule had anything to do with safety - it would not matter how the infraction happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Phantom, I agree reasonably safe. How do we define reasonable? I think long gun re-staged open is safe. No penalty for empty in chamber or carrier. Penalty for live round, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Phantom, I agree reasonably safe. How do we define reasonable? I think long gun re-staged open is safe. No penalty for empty in chamber or carrier. Penalty for live round, though. Pointed down range...I'm okay. And, see Creeker's post above. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Creeker, I'm ok with what Misty said. So what's the problem with the rule? Subjectivity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 Creeker, I'm ok with what Misty said. So what's the problem with the rule? Subjectivity? The problem with the rule is what was placed in the book is NOT what my club debated, discussed and agreed on. It is NOT what our TG debated, discussed and voted on. It is not what our RO committee told us the rule was and how it would be implemented. It is not what the CEO of the company told us the rule was and how it would be implemented. Subjectivity is not issue - Trust is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Ringer Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 The problem with the rule is what was placed in the book is NOT what my club debated, discussed and agreed on. It is NOT what our TG debated, discussed and voted on. It is not what our RO committee told us the rule was and how it would be implemented. It is not what the CEO of the company told us the rule was and how it would be implemented. Subjectivity is not issue - Trust is. Yep! +1..... And right before EOT???? Makes no sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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