Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Tex's opinion or rule change?


Straight Arrow Hombre

Recommended Posts

Phantom.... you are not dumb or stoopid... in fact, you are a pretty smart guy. I'm amazed anyone would call you that. :P

 

Snakebite

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 219
  • Created
  • Last Reply

 

Phantom.... you are not dumb or stoopid... in fact, you are a pretty smart guy. I'm amazed anyone would call you that. :P

 

Snakebite

 

I agree. Tall and Ugly and a slow shooter...maybe. But not dumb or stoooopid.

 

:) :)

 

 

..........Widder

Link to post
Share on other sites

4 pages of this wow. I'm new here. Shooting my first match this weekend. However, I've been involved in shooting sports for the better part of the past 40 years and I see something very troubling in this thread and have seen this same type of thing divide and permanently damage other shooting sports. That "thing" is, for lack of a better word, gamesmanship.

 

Guys and gals, from a total newbie, be careful how far down the slippery slope you wish to travel. I've seen this movie before with other shooting sports and it typically does not have a happy ending. Remember, first and foremost it should be safe, followed by fun.

 

I don't have a clue who this Tex person is. Either he's in charge of the rules committee and can make changes, he's the grand poo-bah of the association and can veto the rules committee or he's just another curmudgeon like the rest of us expressing his opinion.

 

If he is in charge of the rules committee, work with him to get the rules clarified.

If he's the grand poo-bah, well, he'll change the rules to fit his needs and you have a choice to obey or not. (Mutiny happens from time to time)

If he's just another curmudgeon, take his opinion as that, his opinion. Everybody has the right to be wrong.

 

Just an observation from a new fellow. Going back into lurk and learn mode now.

 

Jeff - Guitar Slinger.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Intent of shooter.......

 

Intent of stage writer.....

 

Intent of rule........

 

Operating on "intent" will ALWAYS cause confusion!

 

Make decisions on what the shooter actually did.....what the stage writer actually wrote......and what the rule actually states in black & white....

 

Adding intent or "invisible" words to rules to make the rule conform to what the reader personally wants it to mean will only keep confusion in this sport to a maximum.

We need an updated list of conventions. For instance, should a stage description "from either direction" imply starting on the end, or anywhere the shooter feels comfortable? This might help solve some stage writing issues. We need stage writers, not lawyers.

 

CR

Link to post
Share on other sites

Stage writers can take matters into their own hands by simply writing stages that require engagement of targets from a specific position on the firing line.

Allowing target engagement between point A and B (if it is several steps) is asking for trouble.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Guitar Slinger,

 

first and foremost...WELCOME to SASS/CAS and the Wire.

 

The Wire has a personality that might take you some time to get use to.

 

Some of the folks on this Wire ARE on the Rules Committee and interpret those rules/guidelines for us.

 

Tex is a member of the Wild Bunch. I guess, to my knowledge, they own this Wire forum and supply it to us to have these conversations. If and when the Wild Bunch decides they no longer want us to have these conversations on this forum, I reckon they will shut it down first.

 

I can't explain the recent comments in Tex editorial but they do seem to contridict some of the more recent definitions of certain rules/guidelines.

 

Don't be too alarmed. This Wire forum is used for ALOT of things and helping to understand rules, etc...is one of them. Problems, questions, etc....get hashed out and hopefully solved on The Wire.

 

If any of us get to out of line, Allie Mo will shut us off or close down the thread. Its thats simple.

 

Tex is a good feller. He wears big boots and can handle any of these comments that might seem contrite to his editorial.

 

Some of these Pards that post on here are close friends with Tex. Alot of us have met him in person because he travels to alot of matches and makes himself available for conversations.

 

He's probably enjoying this thread, maybe.

 

When we start reaching the slippery slope, Allie will stop it quickly.

 

Have a good day and again, WELCOME!

 

Now that I've type all this stuff, another Pard has the right to post their disagreements. Thats how it is. Ya gotta love it!

 

 

..........Widder

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an opinion on this current "rule" and it's interpretarion by the ROC. I guess it will all be settled at EOT and we as TG's and shooters will get the final statement at that time. The only thing about this thread that saddens me is the way Tex is treated by many of the posters. He is one of the greatest promoters of our sport, has been a member of the Wild Bunch almost from the beginning, has the job of editing the CC which is not easy, and deserves some respect even from those that disagree with him. I certainly don't agree with all his positions but I won't denegrate him over them. It is pretty easy to disagree respectfully. Some on the wire need to learn how.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an opinion on this current "rule" and it's interpretarion by the ROC. I guess it will all be settled at EOT and we as TG's and shooters will get the final statement at that time. The only thing about this thread that saddens me is the way Tex is treated by many of the posters. He is one of the greatest promoters of our sport, has been a member of the Wild Bunch almost from the beginning, has the job of editing the CC which is not easy, and deserves some respect even from those that disagree with him. I certainly don't agree with all his positions but I won't denegrate him over them. It is pretty easy to disagree respectfully. Some on the wire need to learn how.

 

 

AMEN!

Link to post
Share on other sites

4 pages of this wow. I'm new here. Shooting my first match this weekend. However, I've been involved in shooting sports for the better part of the past 40 years and I see something very troubling in this thread and have seen this same type of thing divide and permanently damage other shooting sports. That "thing" is, for lack of a better word, gamesmanship.

 

Guys and gals, from a total newbie, be careful how far down the slippery slope you wish to travel. I've seen this movie before with other shooting sports and it typically does not have a happy ending. Remember, first and foremost it should be safe, followed by fun.

 

I don't have a clue who this Tex person is. Either he's in charge of the rules committee and can make changes, he's the grand poo-bah of the association and can veto the rules committee or he's just another curmudgeon like the rest of us expressing his opinion.

 

If he is in charge of the rules committee, work with him to get the rules clarified.

If he's the grand poo-bah, well, he'll change the rules to fit his needs and you have a choice to obey or not. (Mutiny happens from time to time)

If he's just another curmudgeon, take his opinion as that, his opinion. Everybody has the right to be wrong.

 

Just an observation from a new fellow. Going back into lurk and learn mode now.

 

Jeff - Guitar Slinger.

 

 

The Wire is not the same as going to a shoot. Go shoot and have fun. And read these threads with a sack of popcorn, like I do. :D

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an opinion on this current "rule" and it's interpretarion by the ROC. I guess it will all be settled at EOT and we as TG's and shooters will get the final statement at that time. The only thing about this thread that saddens me is the way Tex is treated by many of the posters. He is one of the greatest promoters of our sport, has been a member of the Wild Bunch almost from the beginning, has the job of editing the CC which is not easy, and deserves some respect even from those that disagree with him. I certainly don't agree with all his positions but I won't denegrate him over them. It is pretty easy to disagree respectfully. Some on the wire need to learn how.

The only problem I have is Tex keeps bringing up the blue jean thing. He has his views and lots of us have ours. Blue Jeans (whatever the brand) are entirely legal as long as they don't have all that fancy thread work on their pockets. Until there is a rule that bans blue jeans specifically, I sure as heck will keep wearing them, beside they are really comfortable and fit my 72 year old body better that the canvas reproduction pants.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Guitar Slinger,

 

first and foremost...WELCOME to SASS/CAS and the Wire.

 

The Wire has a personality that might take you some time to get use to.

 

Some of the folks on this Wire ARE on the Rules Committee and interpret those rules/guidelines for us.

 

Tex is a member of the Wild Bunch. I guess, to my knowledge, they own this Wire forum and supply it to us to have these conversations. If and when the Wild Bunch decides they no longer want us to have these conversations on this forum, I reckon they will shut it down first.

 

I can't explain the recent comments in Tex editorial but they do seem to contridict some of the more recent definitions of certain rules/guidelines.

 

Don't be too alarmed. This Wire forum is used for ALOT of things and helping to understand rules, etc...is one of them. Problems, questions, etc....get hashed out and hopefully solved on The Wire.

 

If any of us get to out of line, Allie Mo will shut us off or close down the thread. Its thats simple.

 

Tex is a good feller. He wears big boots and can handle any of these comments that might seem contrite to his editorial.

 

Some of these Pards that post on here are close friends with Tex. Alot of us have met him in person because he travels to alot of matches and makes himself available for conversations.

 

He's probably enjoying this thread, maybe.

 

When we start reaching the slippery slope, Allie will stop it quickly.

 

Have a good day and again, WELCOME!

 

Now that I've type all this stuff, another Pard has the right to post their disagreements. Thats how it is. Ya gotta love it!

 

 

..........Widder

Thanks guys.

I've been a match director, on rules committees, rang officer and other menial thankless tasks over the years for shooting sports, in my church and in various other volunteer efforts. Rules committee (or whatever it is called in SASS) is not always a "happy place" kind of job. I've been involved when the folks writing the rule knew what was meant and 99% of the people reading it knew what it meant, but there was always someone out there wanting to point out the 5th definition in the Oxford Unabridged Dictionary could possibly be interpreted to allow some widget to be attached to the sights of his / her rifle and thus give him/her a slight advantage over others trying to play by the rule as written.

 

I honestly don't have a dog in this hunt. I've read the shooter's handbook a couple times this week in prep for the match and it seems clear enough.

 

I'm looking forward to making things go clang and making things go bang, sharing a pretty Saturday with fellow shooters and taking my fair share of abuse as the new guy. I'm sure I'll get the job of picking dog droppings up off the range or some other job that nobody else wants to do (or is too smart to do) and there will undoubtedly be plenty of people there with vice grips and hammers offering to adjust the sights on my revolvers for me (free of charge no doubt).

 

Seriously, I've been to a couple matches as a spectator, looks like a lot of fun so I'm diving in. I already had most of the firearms needed (and more than a few spares in the safe of ones I don't need)..

 

Hey, I even won't be wearing jeans to the match... :D

 

Gonna be fun.

 

Thanks guys and gals for the warm welcome!

 

Jeff - Guitar Slinger. (yes I do play guitar but I won't make anyone listen to me sing...)

Link to post
Share on other sites

4 pages of this wow. I'm new here. Shooting my first match this weekend. However, I've been involved in shooting sports for the better part of the past 40 years and I see something very troubling in this thread and have seen this same type of thing divide and permanently damage other shooting sports. That "thing" is, for lack of a better word, gamesmanship.

 

Guys and gals, from a total newbie, be careful how far down the slippery slope you wish to travel. I've seen this movie before with other shooting sports and it typically does not have a happy ending. Remember, first and foremost it should be safe, followed by fun.

 

I don't have a clue who this Tex person is. Either he's in charge of the rules committee and can make changes, he's the grand poo-bah of the association and can veto the rules committee or he's just another curmudgeon like the rest of us expressing his opinion.

 

If he is in charge of the rules committee, work with him to get the rules clarified.

If he's the grand poo-bah, well, he'll change the rules to fit his needs and you have a choice to obey or not. (Mutiny happens from time to time)

If he's just another curmudgeon, take his opinion as that, his opinion. Everybody has the right to be wrong.

 

Just an observation from a new fellow. Going back into lurk and learn mode now.

 

Jeff - Guitar Slinger.

 

Welcome pard! - as the saying goes...'SASS ain't the Wire and the Wire ain't SASS' is a general theme. The Wire can have some good info, good fun, and alot of support...mixed in with a little of the opposite. It's the internet after all :D

 

The REAL action is where the shootin' and people go ;)

 

Keep your powder dry...

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I've read that RO I book over and over again and I must be missing something because what I read in Tex's article and what I read in the RO I book seems to me to be the same thing.

It seems to me what Tex is saying is if the shooter closes the action on the rifle you need to come back and open it but if the action on the rifle closes by gravity or being bumped while laying the rifle down after it has been opened and cleared then the action can be left closed and at the conclusion of the stage the gun has to be cleared.

 

RO I Stage Conventions pg 13

Long guns will be discarded open and empty with their barrels pointed safely down range. If
the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied, the shooter will, at the
conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or spotter. Appropriate penalties will
be applied if it is not clear. No one other than the competitor may handle the gun in question.
RO I Appendix A Range Safety Rules Pg 17
If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied,
the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or a spotter.
Appropriate penalties will be applied if it was not clear. No one other than the competitor
may handle the gun in question.
And for the Blue Jeans I must have a little Tex in me because I frown on shooters showing up in BLUE JEANS. A lot of the reason I joined this sport was because of the costuming and I feel that if you are really into the spirit of the sport you would leave the blue jeans at home.
Link to post
Share on other sites

I have an opinion on this current "rule" and it's interpretarion by the ROC. I guess it will all be settled at EOT and we as TG's and shooters will get the final statement at that time. The only thing about this thread that saddens me is the way Tex is treated by many of the posters. He is one of the greatest promoters of our sport, has been a member of the Wild Bunch almost from the beginning, has the job of editing the CC which is not easy, and deserves some respect even from those that disagree with him. I certainly don't agree with all his positions but I won't denegrate him over them. It is pretty easy to disagree respectfully. Some on the wire need to learn how.

Yep - I respect the heck outta the guy...may not always agree...but he's top-notch!!!

Link to post
Share on other sites

A big +1. I hope nobody will question Tex's commitment to the sport.

 

I never have questioned his commitment...for those that have...can't say...rather than they are wrong I reckon.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I've read that RO I book over and over again and I must be missing something because what I read in Tex's article and what I read in the RO I book seems to me to be the same thing.

It seems to me what Tex is saying is if the shooter closes the action on the rifle you need to come back and open it but if the action on the rifle closes by gravity or being bumped while laying the rifle down after it has been opened and cleared then the action can be left closed and at the conclusion of the stage the gun has to be cleared.

 

RO I Stage Conventions pg 13

Long guns will be discarded open and empty with their barrels pointed safely down range. If

the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied, the shooter will, at the

conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or spotter. Appropriate penalties will

be applied if it is not clear. No one other than the competitor may handle the gun in question.

 

RO I Appendix A Range Safety Rules Pg 17

 

If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied,

the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or a spotter.

Appropriate penalties will be applied if it was not clear. No one other than the competitor

may handle the gun in question.

 

And for the Blue Jeans I must have a little Tex in me because I frown on shooters showing up in BLUE JEANS. A lot of the reason I joined this sport was because of the costuming and I feel that if you are really into the spirit of the sport you would leave the blue jeans at home.

The rule as written doesn't specify how the gun closes. My contention with Tex's article concerns the TO having to judge the intent of the shooter. This is a direct contradiction of the Rule and Clafification posted here by the ROC.

Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted · Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 29, 2014 - Fire starter.
Hidden by Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217, May 29, 2014 - Fire starter.

See PWB, I read that definition...and I have no problem understanding it...

 

And I've been called dumb, stoopid...even an A-hole...

I can't help but notice that folks have only defended you on the first 2 charges, and everyone's been silent on the third.

 

Maybe they think it's just happening in threads they don't read.

Link to post

I have an opinion on this current "rule" and it's interpretarion by the ROC. I guess it will all be settled at EOT and we as TG's and shooters will get the final statement at that time. The only thing about this thread that saddens me is the way Tex is treated by many of the posters. He is one of the greatest promoters of our sport, has been a member of the Wild Bunch almost from the beginning, has the job of editing the CC which is not easy, and deserves some respect even from those that disagree with him. I certainly don't agree with all his positions but I won't denegrate him over them. It is pretty easy to disagree respectfully. Some on the wire need to learn how.

I'm gonna respectfully disagree.........don't know why this needs to be settled at EOT. As far as I'm concerned this was settled months ago by the ROC and PW, and intent was never part of it........just like a miss can't cause a P. I've meet Tex and he's a fine feller, I take this as just another one of his editorials where he may be trying to shame some of us to doing it the way he thinks it should be..............blue jeans and all. Good Luck :)

 

Jefro :ph34r: Relax-Enjoy

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well hi everyone! We've GOT to stop meeting like this. :D

 

The Wild Bunch is NOT trying to, nor would we, attempt to undermine or negate the authority or clarifications of the RO Committee, or the hard work and dedication of the TG's that represent the clubs and our members. First, let me be clear- I do not now, nor have I ever questioned Tex's commitment to SASS and CAS- with that being said, an editorial is just an editorial, folks. An editorial doesn’t change/make rules. The TG’s and the ROC do that!

 

First, let's address this- here is what the rules actually state (and Tex's Editorial DIDN'T Change IT!):

17. Long guns will have their actions left open and the magazine/barrels empty at the conclusion
of each shooting string. A 10 second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is
not cleared and opened. This condition may be corrected prior to the next round being fired.
If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters

hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of sequence and made
“safe” and then restaged. If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied,
the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or a spotter.
Appropriate penalties will be applied if it was not clear. No one other than the competitor
may handle the gun in question.
Examples:
A Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it, and nothing is ejected and the chamber is
empty — NO CALL.
B. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it, and an empty case/hull is ejected or in the
chamber — Minor Safety Violation. If shooter returns to open and clear the action of a
long gun before firing the next gun on the stage — NO CALL.
C. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it, and a live/unfired round is ejected or in the
chamber — Stage DQ for a long gun having left the shooter’s hand with the action
closed, hammer cocked with a live round in the chamber. In this case there is no
opportunity to return to open it if called back before being committed to the next firearm
— the penalty applies the moment it left the shooter's hand.
Should someone other than the competitor open the action of the gun, any penalties that
would have been incurred will still be applied.

*As voted on by the TG's, and clarified by the ROC- we stand to support them, and this process. Its done.

 

Secondly, Blue Jeans.

They are legal.

For Tex, and for many others, the costuming portion of SASS and Cowboy Action Shooting is paramount. For many, its AS IMPORTANT as the shooting. That in't true for everyone, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. Yes- being Cowboys and Cowgirls is (part of) what sets us apart from the other shooting sports, and dressing up can be alot of fun. Just as the Wire Forum provides a place for everyone to express their OPINION- Tex has his editorials, at least for a few more months. He feels very strongly about it, although he has admitted defeat in many areas there- his opinion is still quite clear on it. I reiterate- His opinion.

With that being said, I am FAR from costuming police, and I support the standard set with the minimum requirements laid out for costuming. I can, however, also certainly agree that there are, in fact, certain venues where we really want to put our best foot forward in terms of costuming.

 

Lastly- Shooting on the Move.

The ROC, via PaleWolf, has clarified this BEAUTIFULLY.

Please see here: http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=220719&hl=%2Bshooting+%2Bon+%2Bthe+%2Bmove

 

The voice(s) of authority are, and will continue to be, the members of the ROC.

 

In FULL support of the TG's, the ROC, Winning match directors, and blue jeans,

 

Misty Moonshine

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well hi everyone! We've GOT to stop meeting like this. :D

 

The Wild Bunch is NOT trying to, nor would we, attempt to undermine or negate the authority or clarifications of the RO Committee, or the hard work and dedication of the TG's that represent the clubs and our members. First, let me be clear- I do not now, nor have I every questioned Tex's commitment to SASS and CAS- with that being said, an editorial is just an editorial, folks. An editorial doesn’t change/make rules. The TG’s and the ROC do that!

 

First, let's address this- here is what the rules actually state (and Tex's Editorial DIDN'T Change IT!):

17. Long guns will have their actions left open and the magazine/barrels empty at the conclusion

of each shooting string. A 10 second minor safety penalty will be assessed if the firearm is

not cleared and opened. This condition may be corrected prior to the next round being fired.

If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving the shooters

hand(s) at the unloading table. This does not apply to guns shot out of sequence and made

“safe” and then restaged. If the action of a long gun closes after being opened and emptied,

the shooter will, at the conclusion of the stage, show it to be clear to the TO or a spotter.

Appropriate penalties will be applied if it was not clear. No one other than the competitor

may handle the gun in question.

Examples:

A Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it, and nothing is ejected and the chamber is

empty — NO CALL.

B. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it, and an empty case/hull is ejected or in the

chamber — Minor Safety Violation. If shooter returns to open and clear the action of a

long gun before firing the next gun on the stage — NO CALL.

C. Shooter returns to the long gun and opens it, and a live/unfired round is ejected or in the

chamber — Stage DQ for a long gun having left the shooter’s hand with the action

closed, hammer cocked with a live round in the chamber. In this case there is no

opportunity to return to open it if called back before being committed to the next firearm

— the penalty applies the moment it left the shooter's hand.

Should someone other than the competitor open the action of the gun, any penalties that

would have been incurred will still be applied.

*As voted on by the TG's, and clarified by the ROC- we stand to support them, and this process. Its done.

 

Secondly, Blue Jeans.

They are legal.

For Tex, and for many others, the costuming portion of SASS and Cowboy Action Shooting is paramount. For many, its AS IMPORTANT as the shooting. That in't true for everyone, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. Yes- being Cowboys and Cowgirls is (part of) what sets us apart from the other shooting sports, and dressing up can be alot of fun. Just as the Wire Forum provides a place for everyone to express their OPINION- Tex has his editorials, at least for a few more months. He feels very strongly about it, although he has admitted defeat in many areas there- his opinion is still quite clear on it. I reiterate- His opinion.

With that being said, I am FAR from costuming police, and I support the standard set with the minimum requirements laid out for costuming. I can, however, also certainly agree that there are, in fact, certain venues where we really want to put our best foot forward in terms of costuming.

 

Lastly- Shooting on the Move.

The ROC, via PaleWolf, has clarified this BEAUTIFULLY.

Please see here: http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=220719&hl=%2Bshooting+%2Bon+%2Bthe+%2Bmove

 

The voice(s) of authority are, and will continue to be, the members of the ROC.

 

In FULL support of the TG's, the ROC, Winning match directors, and blue jeans,

 

Misty Moonshine

 

Yay... :D Now THAT's a BINGO! B)

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well done and well said.... way to go....and thanks...the behind the scenes must have been quite something to watch and marvel!

Link to post
Share on other sites

So by what method will new rules or interpretations on long guns closed be established at EOT than used for Winter Range. In the past rules can be made/changed by the TGs at the summit with a 2/3 vote. If the Wild Bunch decrees the rule as Tex calls it in the CC then why do we have TGs and an RO committee?

 

Please see my post above. The rule, as passed by the TG's and clarified by the ROC is the rule. There is nothing to settle at EOT- the final statement has been stated. We have TGs and an RO Committee to serve as intended. Tex's editorial doesn't change that- the Wild Bunch hasn't "decreed" anything.

 

Nothin to see, folks.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Does somebody have a link I can go to about shooting on the move. When I go to the link Misty posted it says I am not allowed to view this forum.

 

Thanks in advance for your help,

Marlin

 

My apologies. I may have fudged up the link.

 

Try this one:

 

Grab your popcorn... Its a LONG thread...Keep an eye out for Pale Wolf's clarifications- those are key.

 

http://sassnet.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=219854

 

Misty

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Please see my post above. The rule, as passed by the TG's and clarified by the ROC is the rule. There is nothing to settle at EOT- the final statement has been stated. We have TGs and an RO Committee to serve as intended. Tex's editorial doesn't change that- the Wild Bunch hasn't "decreed" anything.

 

Nothin to see, folks.

Thanks for the clarification. You are very helpful. I think I will print out the clarification of the rules you quoted from the RO committee on how a long gun is closed after being opened and cleared either accidentally or on purpose is a no call and carry it in my gun cart.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.