Frustrating IAC 97' issue

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Have a "090" IAC 97" that is kinda frustrating to shoot. It does not repeat itself with unweighted dummies or when holding the gun level. but when shooting down at targets it has the jam up that shows in the pic that requires a double clutch of the pump, it's pretty annoying and did it 3 out of the first 4 shots on the first stage yesterday. Does it with my reloads and factory shells. Anybody ever have this issue? And no I'm not interested in shooting a real Winchester. Thanks in advance for any light shed on the subject. Edit: this is happening while single loading through port, feeds fine from mag.

 

[J-BAR #18287]

Just for clarification Deuce, is that the empty hull trying to come out, or is it the next loaded shell coming out of the magazine? You mentioned the unweighted dummies, so I'm thinking that is a live round in the photo...

 

Hate to ask a stupid question, but it's not the first time I've admitted ignorance.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Is the shell flag behaving itself? I could imagine it, if bent a little so it's not going all the way down, might cause this.

 

Are the shell stops dirty or bent and being sluggish, releasing the fresh shell from mag only as the carrier is starting up, so the base bounces up off the nose of the carrier?

 

Good luck, GJ

[Tucker McNeely]

Make sure the magazine tube is not getting pulled out of the receiver. The magazine tube threads are not the best. Look in the receiver with the carrier up or in battery. You shouldn't be able to feel a gap between the tube and receiver. I've had this happen before.

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

Or just shoot your double and forget about this 97 nonsense.

[Mink Shoals Bandit, #49388]

Make sure the magazine tube is not getting pulled out of the receiver. The magazine tube threads are not the best. Look in the receiver with the carrier up or in battery. You shouldn't be able to feel a gap between the tube and receiver. I've had this happen before.

Seen several pull out, well more than that. Try stretching the mag spring to increase the pressure a little, maybe get a better push out......??

[Cypress Sun]

Does this occur single loading or with rounds out of the magazine?

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

This is happening while single loading through the port.

[Monco]

Seems that something must be holding the shell in that position or it would be laying down loose on the carrier right? Can't see much inside in the pic. Maybe the nose of the shell nose is catching on something around the mag tube port since it only happens when angled downward?

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Or just shoot your double and forget about this 97 nonsense.

If you don't have info to contribute stay in your Northern Michigan cave you curmudgeon in training.

[Cypress Sun]

It appears that the shell is "nosing" into the mag tube ever so slightly. If your 97 has had the mods done to be able to hold 6 in the tube for WB, it may be a case of the spring being pushed back in by the weight of the shell. Could try changing the spring to see if the problem continues.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I'd take an inside-the-frame measurement with vernier calipers and check (against a gun that is not acting up) that the frame was not bowed in, at the rear end of the ejection port. (Maybe you slammed that soft Chinese receiver down on the table edge? Or someone drove over it in the parking lot?)

 

SOMETHING is holding the back of the shell up. It's not just a local lack-of-gravity anomaly. Find the "visible means of support" and you have a trail as to what it wrong.

 

Give us a better pic down into the mouth of the beast, or maybe some more clues!

 

Good luck, GJ

[Chickasaw Bill SASS #70001]

Duece

 

a few things come to mind

 

a bent or sticking flag

the follower not having enough tension

the mag tube being loose , streched threads , letting it go foward slightley , cuasing the nose to hang in the gap

 

thinking it may be a combo problem flag and mag tube

 

But I have been WRONG before

 

Chickasaw Bill

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

If you don't have info to contribute stay in your Northern Michigan cave you curmudgeon in training.

The fact that it's snowing out side of my cave has me feeling a bit melancholy. It's the middle of May!!

[Dubious Don #56333]

This is happening while single loading through the port.

Ok, couple questions to help with ze...diagnosis.

Where is the nose of the shell? Is it between the carrier and frame, some open far enough, IOW the carrier goes down far enough for the shell to slip out the bottom, or is the hull catching on the magazine tube?

 

Where in the firing cycle is this happening? On extraction after firing or after the shell is tossed in the port? Is it before the forend moves forward or during the cycle?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Tip of fresh shell catching in mag tube because of the mag tube follower not coming all the way to the rear of the tube? That could be more likely as the gun is tipped forward as you load.

 

In your photo, the witness mark on the mag tube appears like it should (next to the frame) - the mag tube is probably not coming out of the frame.

 

GJ

[jrswanson1]

Why are you single loading when the action is open? Drop two in and your problem will go away. Also, use Winchester AA shells, not the Remingtons you appear to be using.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Why are you single loading when the action is open? Drop two in and your problem will go away. Also, use Winchester AA shells, not the Remingtons you appear to be using.

'97 being discussed not '87.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

JR,

 

single loading IS done when the action is open.

 

Single loading means throwing one in the action, one at a time.

 

Deuce is good, but even he can't throw one in the action unless its open.....

 

 

..........Widder

[J-BAR #18287]

I agree with Garrison Joe, something is pinching the sides of the hull. I've tried for 30 minutes to find a position that will cause a shell to bind at that angle without success. The shell just rattles loose in there until it's controlled by the flag and bolt. My '97 is a stock Winchester ( sorry, I know you didn't want to hear that)

[Guest Maker-Wright]

I'm guessing for the picture, you placed the shell in the action by hand?...

 

Only thing I can see in the picture, is that it appears the tip of your right side extractor isn't pitching back into the home position after the case head slips away from the bolt face (looks like the tip is pitching a little too far too the right). Is it possible that the right extractor isn't grabbing the shell properly? In other words, the shell is being dragged out of the chamber solely by the left extractor, and as soon as it's out of the chamber it has nothing to reference it to the bolt face any more, so it just falls into the action?

[M.T Chambers, SASS#76185]

I have a practically new "090" Duece (I prefer a hammer double). with a shell pushed all the way to the left, there is about 3/16" clearance between the flag and the shell.

 

MTC

[Hurricane Deck 100366]

Looks like the carrier isn't fully down, which may cause the front lip to catch in the mag tube.

 

The carrier in my all original winchester 97 drops considerably farther than this.

 

Is it possible the action hook is bent or broken?

[M.T Chambers, SASS#76185]

Looks like the carrier isn't fully down, which may cause the front lip to catch in the mag tube.

 

The carrier in my all original winchester 97 drops considerably farther than this.

 

Is it possible the action hook is bent or broken?

 

 

Good call HD,

 

You can see the bottom of the flag when my action is open.

 

MTC

[Guest Maker-Wright]

I'd say Deuce just staged the gun that way for illustration, and the slide isn't pulled fully back.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I'm guessing for the picture, you placed the shell in the action by hand?...

 

Only thing I can see in the picture, is that it appears the tip of your right side extractor isn't pitching back into the home position after the case head slips away from the bolt face (looks like the tip is pitching a little too far too the right). Is it possible that the right extractor isn't grabbing the shell properly? In other words, the shell is being dragged out of the chamber solely by the left extractor, and as soon as it's out of the chamber it has nothing to reference it to the bolt face any more, so it just falls into the action?

Good observation...and that's what I'm a thinkin too.

[Guest Maker-Wright]

The '97 I use for dry firing feeds snap-caps flawlessly, but something about the right-side extractor socket was milled incorrectly, so when firing live ammo, under recoil, the right side extractor "walks" out of the bolt a bit, and won't extract the shell properly. I've tried new extractors, plungers, stiffer springs, and nothing helps. Oh well... it's good to have a dry-fire gun anyway to keep the wear off of the match guns.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Guys, the pic is of the jam exactly when it occurs. The carrier is on it's way up and I'm starting to close the action.

 

[Guest Maker-Wright]

Then I'd echo what others have said... the mag tube follower isn't travelling rearward enough to prevent the tip of the shell from snagging on the top of the tube opening in the frame.

[M.T Chambers, SASS#76185]

Is this gun set-up for WB? My follower seems to be more visible. Is the shell hanging-up on the top of the mag opening?

 

MTC

 

[M.T Chambers, SASS#76185]

Then I'd echo what others have said... the mag tube follower isn't coming forward enough to prevent the tip of the shell from snagging on the top of the tube opening in the frame.

 

You type faster

[Grizzly Dave]

Then I'd echo what others have said... the mag tube follower isn't coming forward enough to prevent the tip of the shell from snagging on the top of the tube opening in the frame.

 

 

 

You type faster

 

He shoots fast too!

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

I had a very similar problem when I got the great idea to not install the follower/spring...so yea...the follower ain't going forward enough...IMO.

[Guest Maker-Wright]

To clarify; Something is preventing the mag. tube follower from protruding far enough into the action to push the shell back away from the tube opening in the frame...

 

W/ gun empty & action closed; Remove barrel band (300-5 bit), remove mag tube retaining screw from frame (210-4/5), Spin mag tube out of receiver and remove along with slide, remove mag plug from front of tube (180-4/5... watch out for the snake), and give it all a look. At the very least swab it all out and lube it with a light oil. Maybe it's rusty/cruddy, or you've got some kind of modified follower that doesn't have enough projection, or your spring is too weak.

 

When you put it back together, make sure you spin the mag. tube into the frame by hand until it stops, then just back it out until the reference marks/holes align, and reinstall retaining screw.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

A few minutes after staring this thread Larsen Pettifogger sent me a diagnosis. It appears he hit it. A action hook that was slightly out of spec. Swapped it out with a different one and problem has disappeared. Thanks guys for the suggestions and thanks Larsen!