Winchester 1897 "C" series - 2-1/2" or 2-3/4"?

[Warden Callaway]

The day after Thanksgiving son and I was in a big gunshop in the frozen north country where I spotted a Winchester 1897. It stuck to my hands and wanted to come home with me but I've got too many to care for and feed now.

 

Last week I mentioned in a text exchange with my son that lives in the frozen north that I wondered if the 1897 was still there. He texted me from the gunshop Saturday that it was still there. Long story short, he bought it for me.

 

The serial # in the 200,000 and "C" series would, I think put its manufactur date of 1902.

 

I don't think the gun is marked 2-3/4". Is there a chance it's chambered 2-1/2"?

 

Son took some pictures with his cell phone and I put them together into a slide show.

 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

For clarification, there are no Winchester 97's that are chambered for MODERN 2 3/4 inch shells.

 

They were ALL made for the older roll crimp shells that are a little shorter than the modern crimp. So it is probably best to have the chamber lengthened as well as lengthening the forcing cone. (The standard forcing cone is 1/2 inch while we normally have them lengthened to 1 1/2inches to ease the pressures. Most folks can feel a slight reduction in perceived recoil from this.

 

Generally a smith uses a standard too that takes care of both operations at the same time and it used to cost $50 or less. I haven't priced it for several years, so I don't know what the charge would be now days, but I'm sure it varies.

 

And the 97 is a great gun, but it was not built to stand a lot of high pressure loads, so the gun will last a LOT longer shooting light target or less powerful loads.

[Warden Callaway]

Thanks,

 

As the gun is new to me and it's been reblued, it may or may not have had the chamber and forcing cone lengthened. Is there a way to check and verify that it's been updated or not?

 

If it still has factory chamber, one could reload roll crimped or use brass hulls, I would think?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

With the factory chamber, one can use light shotshells anyway. "Normal" cowboy shotshells are running under 10,000 psi. Stuff like Win Featherlites.

 

You can spot a long taper forcing cone very easy. Look down barrel from chamber end. If you see what almost looks like a ledge, pretty sharp shoulder at the front end of chamber, it is the original Winchester factory forcing cone. If you see it taper, and the taper looks at least about half as long as the chamber, out in front of the chamber, it has been at least tapered.

 

To really check if the chamber has been lengthened takes gauging. A good shotgun smith will have a 12 gauge chamber length gauge. It is a steel plug that is dropped in from chamber end and it has marks for, usually 2.75, 3 and sometimes 3.5 inch. You can figure out where the old 2 5/8" and 2.5 inch chamber marks would be, too, and add some extra marks.

 

Part 080-546-012WB $20

 

On page http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/measuring-tools/shotgun-chamber-gauges/shotgun-chamber-gauge-prod593.aspx

 

Worth having access to one, if you are buying or working on shotguns! If a 97 ever takes the gauge up to the 3 inch line, it has been dangerously reamed out for 3 inch mag shells. Danger waiting to happen to someone. These old guns can be sleeved with a stainless steel liner to restore a pitted or overbored or overlengthened chamber, for less than an arm and a leg, BTW.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Warden Callaway]

Thanks guys.

 

Son still has the gun and I had urged him to get some target loads and shoot it to test for function. Then I thought about the possibility of it being chambered for 2-1/2". (Didn't consider roll vs star crimp). I've advised him not to shoot it until we can check it out.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

You can use target loads and lighter and not really worry about the chamber length on the 97's. The shell can open almost fully with the forcing cone.

 

But I had all mine lengthened just to be certain.

 

As mentioned a gauge is needed to accurately measure. Although it is possible without one, It is pretty hard to do and be accurate.

[Warden Callaway]

I just measured the length of a fired Remington STS hull and it was right at 2.70". I don't have an old paper roll crimp hull to compare.

 

In any case, I wouldn't be shooting heavy loads in it.

 

In doing searches, I came across this video about forcing cones and length thereof.

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Well, this video makes most of it's case about how a 12 gauge might blow up a barrel if a 20 gauge shell is dropped down the barrel and a 12 gauge shell fired behind that.

 

Well, DUH! Their claims to the contrary, there are not many shotguns, with a tapered lengthened forcing cone or with the short factory forcing cone, that will stand up to that. Besides, stacking (or double loading) 20 and 12 gauge shells is the ultimate in gun handling mistakes.

 

You will find that many modern shotgun barrels are long-coned right from the factory.

 

Each shotgun model's barrel contour is different from the next one. Whether a long forcing cone can safely be cut in any given barrel takes some knowledge and measurement. There are tons of shotgun smiths who know how to determine this, and if safe, have the ability to do it. Seek them out.

 

These fellows are constrained by warranty agreements they have with several major shotgun manufacturing firms, as they clearly stated. For them to say anything else than what the manufacturer allows them to say would be detrimental to their business.

 

So, CAS loads in a '97 in good condition, having the forcing cone lengthened? Probably nothing disastrous there. But, it is always worth seeking knowledgeable advice from a professional. As for true professionals, Briley is widely recognized as knowing their way around shotguns. They would be glad to tell you what can safely be done.

 

http://www.brileygunsmithing.com/long-forcing-cone.html

 

Good luck, GJ

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Marauder- May I ask when star crimped 12 gauge ammo came out?

I had no luck with a Google search.

LG

[Warden Callaway]

The thing you find on YouTube,

 

 

This guy talks like there should be a law requiring all shotguns to have their forcing cones lengthened.

 

 

This guy talks about over boring to 10 gauge.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yes, you can find all sorts of junk that has been filmed and put on "Boob-tube." I trust little unless I have first hand knowledge of the person who wanted to get some screen-time by way of a self-published video.

 

When folks used to write books that way, to promote their own theories, it was called "vanity publishing". Much of UTube seems to fall in the same category. Not peer reviewed, not edited by a professional who can separate fact from fiction, etc.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Warden Callaway]

I find most people ask opinions until they get one that agrees with what they've already concluded.

 

I've not got the gun in hand and won't until sometime next month. I did handle it the day after Thanksgiving but didn't examine the bore. Son said there was some light pitting. I'll have to see. I may just hone the bore a little and love it like it is.

 

What's light pitting going to hurt in cowboy shooting anyway?

[Marauder SASS #13056]

For us light pitting results in being a little harder to clean since it traps gunk. We don't worry too much about patterns or long range shots, so that isn't a concern.

 

Of course, deep pitting can weaken the barrel.

 

The modern crimp came in the 1960's as I recall. Because I used to see the roll crimp where the shot size was written on the little disk that covered the shot. I'll research more on that.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

For us light pitting results in being a little harder to clean since it traps gunk. We don't worry too much about patterns or long range shots, so that isn't a concern.

 

Of course, deep pitting can weaken the barrel.

 

The modern crimp came in the 1960's as I recall. Because I used to see the roll crimp where the shot size was written on the little disk that covered the shot. I'll research more on that.

That sounds about right. I remember sitting in duck blinds with the old paper roll crimped shells getting wet and unrolling. Them new fangled plastic shells with the star crimp didn't do that. When they changed crimps I don't remember the factories issuing any warnings not to use the new style shells in older guns. Tens of millions of rounds of star crimped shells have been fired out of 97s.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

As others have pointed out, even a Win 97 that is marked 2-3/4" does not have a chamber that size, using modern measuring defintions. The Win 97's chamber is more accurately a 2-5/8" chamber.

There are 3 real solutions.

 

1. Have the chamber lengthened.

2. Load and use 2-1/2" all brass shells.

3. Cut back the plastic 2-3/4" hulls to the shorter length, put in an overshot card, and VERY CAREFULLY run them through your regular press. Depending on how short back you cut them, this'll create a kind of a roll crimp that holds the shotcard in place, or a modern looking crimp with a big hole in the middle, which the shotcard prevents the loss of shot from.

 

I ultimately went with Option 2. Tried option 3 for a while, and it's a lot of work to make sure you don't spill shot all over everything, as you got to make sure everything is lined up perfectly in your press. I still reload the shorter hulls for extras for when I run out of all brass stuff. Oh, and the all brass hulls look wicked cool.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

97s never came with a 2 5/8" chamber. Remember, shotgun shells are measured by their FIRED length. Measure any unfired 2 3/4" shell and it is nowhere near 2 3/4". It is 2 3/4" after firing. Modern throats may have a different taper, but a 2 3/4" shell is a 2 3/4" shell.