Brother King, SASS #69031 Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Put this is the category of "how we're losing market share": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayb2V5w_vu4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayb2V5w_vu4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fargo Bill, SASS #4942 Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 I love ridiculous statements like this. Authenticity. Our game, (remember that word) game, is a timer scored shooting competition utilizing pre 1898 style firearms. We are not reenacting or demonstrating history, we have nothing to be authentic to. The game exists to provide entertainment, socialization and each individuals desired level of competition. A single round reload (pistol or rifle) may add variety and some folks enjoy variety. But the shooter that is capable of that 10.7 second stage is still going to be the fastest shooter there. Lastly, if placing rounds in to firearms is so much fun - how come the comment cards never read "The loading table was my favorite stage - more of that please" "WOW! Three people standing side by side putting bullets in guns!?!. I'm taking that idea to my home club" "A Crown Royal Bag, leather cartridge strips, plastic ammo boxes - the variety of loading options at your match was amazing" If we are not reenacting, why do we wear boots, cowboy hats, scarves, chaps, spurs, holsters, cuffs, instead of NIKES and S & W Mod. 19's. But, I love to socialize and shoot accurately and with rhythm in my soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverboat Red, SASS #71733 Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Lastly, if placing rounds in to firearms is so much fun - how come the comment cards never read "The loading table was my favorite stage - more of that please" "WOW! Three people standing side by side putting bullets in guns!?!. I'm taking that idea to my home club" "A Crown Royal Bag, leather cartridge strips, plastic ammo boxes - the variety of loading options at your match was amazing" Creeker, that was funny! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Hi Folks, As I shoot Colts, I'm not fond of pistol reloads, unless you can load the sixth on the clock before firing. I shoot a Marlin rifle, so reloads are easy either before firing (it holds 11) or after. Regards, Allie Mo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 The folks that complain about the "Fast" stages are the same folks that would complain because a "reload 5" stage took 2 hours to get a posse through. Move along folks...nothing to see here. Also, before y'all crucify Noz with a SOG penalty...he's a fellow Frontiersman and if you asked me to reload 5 on the clock in a C&B pistol, I'd be sitting on the bench right beside him. You don't have a spare cyl? There was a reason, that the cartridge gun replaced C&B. This game is dominated by cartridge guns- Reloads should be SOP in this game. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Trying to keep everyone happy especially with all the categories is impossible Hence the same boring stand and deliver stages Where are you shooting all of these S&D stages??? Pretty much everywhere around here had movement. Very few S&D stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gran'pa Jef Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 One stage with one pistol reload & another one with one rifle reload are fun & fine during a competition. But according to my experience no more. That's what I do when I design stages: CAS is about shooting, not reloading. Let's keep it simple & straightforward! Jef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Rooster Posted March 20, 2014 Author Share Posted March 20, 2014 Thanks to all for your observations, suggestions and information on this topic. And Yes, I now realize I need to take into consideration ALL shooters in ALL categories and ALL of the different fireams we use before planning a stage like this. (If I even do so - based on the many comments regarding single round reloads vs multiple bullet reloads.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Brasse, SASS #3562 Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 As said above, unless you have figured out the timing & are running all long stages, it's going to back things up. With all the "practice" gained at the loading table, you would think think reloading a gun would be the easiest park of reload stage, but no. Reloading is just another skill set & if you want to do it in a hurry, requires practice. When full reloads were common, people used to work at it. (like in other games where they play with clips & speed-loaders) Yep, did cap-n-ball, & a full reload really adds up time. A one shot, cap on the clock reload is much easier for everyone. What really caused issues with some was when there was no prop to set the gun on while reloading. (yes, there were some "planning errors" in "Old Days" too) It wouldn't go over too well today as many people use loading strips etc instead of a cartridge belt. Real fun with cap-n-ball...Not.so much Also real Henry unfriendly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingers McGee Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Also, before y'all crucify Noz with a SOG penalty...he's a fellow Frontiersman and if you asked me to reload 5 on the clock in a C&B pistol, I'd be sitting on the bench right beside him. As would I. I don't always carry a spare pistol; and, while I can load a cylinder pretty quick, it would still slow the posse down considerably. Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Bob #35998 Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 If I was shooting cap and ball My standing in the match would fall If I was forced to reload five. Heck, even one would give me hives! On a posse numbering ten or less It's not a real big deal I guess. But more than that would cause a flap. Most of us would take a nap. Now I like movement, though some folks fear Running there and jumping here. It makes things move and makes it fun. That's why I like to shoot these guns. The Henry rifle I hold dear Ain't reload friendly, that's sure clear. When dropping rounds I look the fool. Too many reloads just ain't cool. So I sez don't stand in one spot. Move, and shoot, and laugh a lot. Reload one just now and then But please, not ever five or ten! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jess Ducky Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Or, for those who have a truly masochistic bent, we have a match every year called the Hombre Muy Malo. It is dedicated to the idea that reloading can be fun. There are complete rifle and pistol reloads (that's both pistols) on every stage, and lots of shotgun. We allow prestaging of ammo, so that a person does not have to carry it all in belts and pouches and pockets. The match is limited to a certain number of shooters, so that we don't have to shoot after dark (although we used to do that, too.) Yes, your thumb does get sore from shoving cartridges into guns all day long, and yes, the stage times are long. But everyone knows this going in, and we usually have 30-40 folks turn out. The trick to making it fun is writing scenarios that make sense for reloading. For the last several years we have had a pair of really great stage designers running it, May B. Shecan and Johnny Pinebox. And yes, cap and ball shooters come to play too, and they bring a bunch of extra cylinders. The biggest problem the black powder guys face is lingering smoke, and barrels that get so hot they can take the skin off your hands! The smoke gets so bad, we have a team of search/guide dogs that go into the clouds after the firing stops to find the shooter/TO and lead them to the unloading tables.... Ducky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irish ike, SASS #43615 Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 As a C&B shooter, one pistol load is OK. The buzzer goes off and I cap the 6th nipple and shoot. Do not let anyone cap after firing 5 rounds as you may get a chain fire while firing the first 5. You bring the hammer back to half cock so the cylinder will rotate. I have seen where people will bring an extra cylinder. Ruger Old Armies and Remingtons make this fairly easy. Colt army and navies, not good at all. Also if you are loading a capped cylinder there is a risk of dropping and having the thing go off. We don't recommend it where I shoot. Ike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCandless Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 If I was shooting cap and ball My standing in the match would fall If I was forced to reload five. Heck, even one would give me hives! On a posse numbering ten or less It's not a real big deal I guess. But more than that would cause a flap. Most of us would take a nap. Now I like movement, though some folks fear Running there and jumping here. It makes things move and makes it fun. That's why I like to shoot these guns. The Henry rifle I hold dear Ain't reload friendly, that's sure clear. When dropping rounds I look the fool. Too many reloads just ain't cool. So I sez don't stand in one spot. Move, and shoot, and laugh a lot. Reload one just now and then But please, not ever five or ten! That was great!!! OK, reloading cap n' ball... most frontiersmen could easily keep up. Just stage your spare pistol downrange, cap on the clock...done. I always carry spare pistols with me. You never know when a handspring or leaf type bolt spring will "give". But heck, I always carry extra cylinders with me, too.! So, pop a cylinder out, pop a charged cylinder back in, cap on clock... done. The last time I had a 5-shot pistol reload was about 8-9 years ago at a local match. There was a handy barrel top to stop at and perform the reload. popped the cylinder conversion out of my Remmie, slammed ca'tridges in the holes, did my best Pale Rider imitation putting it back in, and done! Much faster than the Colts or Rugers. Frontiersman would of necessity have to do a single reload different. You come to the line with 6 charged cylinders, 5 capped. You can't fire them and then cap the remaining, because most chain-fires happen when an uncapped charged cylinder goes boom from the spark of the cap you're firing. So Frontiersmen would have to cap the reload, on the clock, before firing the first round,.. or as mentioned above, have a single charged cylinder or a single charged spare gun waiting downrange. As for single rifle reloads, it's something that should be practiced all the time. For when you jack out a live one or have to shoot a bonus target. But, full rifle reloads? Yawn! Not what I'd like to see. But it'll just be a matter of time before someone starts mass-producing those loading tubes with the push-rod that just zips your loads in. A screw-on cap on the business end, and you got a 5-second 10-round reload. ~Duc~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 If I was shooting cap and ball My standing in the match would fall If I was forced to reload five. Heck, even one would give me hives! On a posse numbering ten or less It's not a real big deal I guess. But more than that would cause a flap. Most of us would take a nap. Now I like movement, though some folks fear Running there and jumping here. It makes things move and makes it fun. That's why I like to shoot these guns. The Henry rifle I hold dear Ain't reload friendly, that's sure clear. When dropping rounds I look the fool. Too many reloads just ain't cool. So I sez don't stand in one spot. Move, and shoot, and laugh a lot. Reload one just now and then But please, not ever five or ten! That's a good one UB.........welcome back. CS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Well said, UB. You have been missed! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted March 20, 2014 Share Posted March 20, 2014 Bingo. I know when you are somewhat new. Some of this stuff sounds great. But for many that have done it. Have already seen it did not work out to great...... Balderdash! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 ... As for single rifle reloads, it's something that should be practiced all the time. For when you jack out a live one or have to shoot a bonus target. But, full rifle reloads? Yawn! Not what I'd like to see. But it'll just be a matter of time before someone starts mass-producing those loading tubes with the push-rod that just zips your loads in. A screw-on cap on the business end, and you got a 5-second 10-round reload. ~Duc~ Those loading tubes are fine at the LT...but NOT LEGAL for reloading during a stage...same for loading blocks/strips. REF: SHB p.11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Rooster Posted March 21, 2014 Author Share Posted March 21, 2014 Those loading tubes are fine at the LT...but NOT LEGAL for reloading during a stage...same for loading blocks/strips. REF: SHB p.11 Oh Oh!!! Just one more concern in planning a reload during a stage!! I do not think it is a good idea to have live rounds loose as 'staged' on a table or other flat surface (barrel Top may be OK due to the retaining rim). I'm thinking 'staged rounds' should be in a plastic cup or similar. I'm not sure how the BP folks would work the scenario - truly another consideration in the planning of a reload during the stage!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_Hearts Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Oh Oh!!! Just one more concern in planning a reload during a stage!! I do not think it is a good idea to have live rounds loose as 'staged' on a table or other flat surface (barrel Top may be OK due to the retaining rim). I'm thinking 'staged rounds' should be in a plastic cup or similar. I'm not sure how the BP folks would work the scenario - truly another consideration in the planning of a reload during the stage!! You have them put a container of black powder, a bunch of lead balls, and some caps on the table..... Serves um right for choking us with their stinky concoctions! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hoss Carpenter, SASS Life 7843 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I like what Fargo Bill said; I do not care for what Creeker said. CAS / SASS was a lot more fun before we started having 15 second stages. I am an old guy and I am a realist and know the game will not return to what I enjoyed. However, I will keep coming and shooting as long as I can stand and shoot ; cause I love the people and getting ready to go to CAS and the "afterglow"; good day or not so good (shooting only; every day is a good day!) Cheers, Hoss C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Oh Oh!!! Just one more concern in planning a reload during a stage!! I do not think it is a good idea to have live rounds loose as 'staged' on a table or other flat surface (barrel Top may be OK due to the retaining rim). Set'm on a scarf, if need be. You can load cartridges from your belt, ya know. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madd Mike #8595 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 An occasional one shot pistol or rifle reload is okay, but this is a shooting sport, not a reloading sport. The top shooters, who practice everything, would still be fastest. that is true, top shooters combined with practice of every aspect required in a stage design will always be the fastest times but an occasional reload once in a while is just fine and you wont have a 10.7 second stage doin it when folks are talken bout fast stages, they are not usually talken bout fast shooters there is a HUGE difference so fast shooters should not get their fur all bunched up so (easy like) sometimes 10.7 second stage or 70 second stage, the fastest time for that stage is the fast shooter (stage design is the difference) the very best of the best (in my mind) at large match top gun shoot offs usually have a reload pistol ending shot that sure gets the on lookers watchin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Duncan Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 As would I. I don't always carry a spare pistol; and, while I can load a cylinder pretty quick, it would still slow the posse down considerably.Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGeeSlow down the posse? Shucks. The longer a cowpoke takes the more fun time he ( or she ) can have! The rest of the posse can just be jealous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheatin Charlie Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Just my 2 cents worth. I shoot Frontiersman most of the time and have no problem with one pistol reload where I can load 6 and cap 5 at the loading table. For the rifle if you are going to do a reload I think the instructions should be reload one round after you have shot one rifle round. Some places said to load one extra round and shooters were pulling a round and putting it in the rifle before picking it up. To me this defeats the whole purpose of the reload you might as well let them load 11 rounds at the loading table. But back to the pistol if you would let cartridge guys load the extra round on the clock before the first shot that would eliminate the click click click bang that we often see. Or if you want to have more fun they should shoot 5 and eject an empty before they can load the extra round, now that would be more authentic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mean Matt McCord, SASS #24683 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I remember a stage years ago that involved 16 rifle, no pistol, no shotgun. It was a stand-and-deliver stage. You were allowed to stage the extra 6 rounds on the table next to your rifle. After engaging the first 10 targets, you loaded your 6 extra rounds, then completed the stage. It was actually kind of fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Put this is the category of "how we're losing market share": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayb2V5w_vu4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayb2V5w_vu4 nice this guy is great,but with them shooting mostly cardboard is kinda boring to watch, I dont know if I'd want to shoot those disciplines Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I like reloads the more the better. They take so long sometimes the spotters get distracted and forget how many misses the shooter had prior to starting the reload. Don't ask how I know................. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSUXXzN26zg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I remember a stage years ago that involved 16 rifle, no pistol, no shotgun. It was a stand-and-deliver stage. You were allowed to stage the extra 6 rounds on the table next to your rifle. After engaging the first 10 targets, you loaded your 6 extra rounds, then completed the stage. It was actually kind of fun. This would not be so bad. With no pistol or SG you saved some time. And only 6 reloads in a rifle would not make the stage drag out to bad. Could live with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Slow down the posse? Shucks. The longer a cowpoke takes the more fun time he ( or she ) can have! The rest of the posse can just be jealous. Disagree. I enjoy shooting and watching others shoot. Watching them load there pistols? Not so much. If most of the stage time is eaten up with just doing the reload. It sounds like a snooze fest to me. And a place I would sure think about before ever going back to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monco Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I just shot a monthly match last weekend where we had one pistol holstered with 5 rounds. The stage started with 3 shotgun knockdowns. Then, we had to shoot the pistol, unload and reload 5 for 5 plate rack knockdown targets. On the same stage, we had to load 3 in the rifle with a total of 13 shots at rifle targets then pick up any of the 5 pistol knockdowns left standing with shotgun if necessary. There were no cap & ball shooters so obviously that qty. of reloads could have been more of an issue if there were. If I were shooting C&B and the cylinder from my 2nd revolver (not used) would function well in the 1st pistol, I would have enjoyed the cylinder switch and capping on the clock too as long as long as no loading mistakes were made while in a rush to avoid a safety issue. The stage was fun and I also really enjoyed watching everyone. There was plenty of laughter and fun had by all. This match was run with a small number of shooters so there were no time constraint issues. I'm all good with that kind of stage now and then versus a constant dose of 10, 10, & 4 scenarios but would certainly be a bottleneck at a larger match unless a couple of prior stages were progressively more time consuming to minimize the delay. I do see a bit of an issue with the C&B shooters tho.....of which I plan on being one day so that would be my main concern. In short, it seems to me that there is certainly a time and place for this kind of stage and it is also impossible to make everyone happy....just have to compromise in an effort please the majority of the demographic. I feel very fortunate to have both smaller and larger clubs within driving distance that allows me to experience a good variety. To me this is much better than the same ole thing at every match I attend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 If we are not reenacting, why do we wear boots, cowboy hats, scarves, chaps, spurs, holsters, cuffs, instead of NIKES and S & W Mod. 19's. But, I love to socialize and shoot accurately and with rhythm in my soul. Perhaps you should take a look at the meaning of "Reenacting"... We are not... And I wish folks such as yourself would stop trying to alienate folks that don't shoot this game the way you do. Seriously...some folks think that they are upholding some kind of Beautiful Western Old Tyme Standard...but all they are doing is playing a delusional game in their own mind. Cheers! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buckhorn Bud Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 I just shot a monthly match last weekend where we had one pistol holstered with 5 rounds. The stage started with 3 shotgun knockdowns. Then, we had to shoot the pistol, unload and reload 5 for 5 plate rack knockdown targets. On the same stage, we had to load 3 in the rifle with a total of 13 shots at rifle targets then pick up any of the 5 pistol knockdowns left standing with shotgun if necessary. There were no cap & ball shooters so obviously that qty. of reloads could have been more of an issue if there were. If I were shooting C&B and the cylinder from my 2nd revolver (not used) would function well in the 1st pistol, I would have enjoyed the cylinder switch and capping on the clock too as long as long as no loading mistakes were made while in a rush to avoid a safety issue. The stage was fun and I also really enjoyed watching everyone. There was plenty of laughter and fun had by all. This match was run with a small number of shooters so there were no time constraint issues. I'm all good with that kind of stage now and then versus a constant dose of 10, 10, & 4 scenarios but would certainly be a bottleneck at a larger match unless a couple of prior stages were progressively more time consuming to minimize the delay. I do see a bit of an issue with the C&B shooters tho.....of which I plan on being one day so that would be my main concern. In short, it seems to me that there is certainly a time and place for this kind of stage and it is also impossible to make everyone happy....just have to compromise in an effort please the majority of the demographic. I feel very fortunate to have both smaller and larger clubs within driving distance that allows me to experience a good variety. To me this is much better than the same ole thing at every match I attend. In this kind of scenareo SASS rules allow C&B shooters to stage the second pistol uncapped. Two of last stages that I wrote involved loading on the clock. One gun is left out of each stage to minimize overall time. One stage has 4+ shotgun, 0 rifle, and 6 pistol, all loaded on the clock. The other stage has 10 pistol, 5+ rifle, and 0 shotgun. The shooter will be allowed to load as many rifle rounds as they think they will need to clear a Texas star, however, all rounds loaded must be fired, either at the star or at the dump plate, or counted as misses. The shooter is also allowed to reload rifle rounds as required to clear all the plates on the star. I think it will be fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Rooster Posted March 21, 2014 Author Share Posted March 21, 2014 Thanks for the really neat ideas for planning a stage that will be both fun and a bit of a challenge - but equal for all shooters!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anvil Al #59168 Posted March 21, 2014 Share Posted March 21, 2014 Perhaps you should take a look at the meaning of "Reenacting"... We are not... And I wish folks such as yourself would stop trying to alienate folks that don't shoot this game the way you do. Seriously...some folks think that they are upholding some kind of Beautiful Western Old Tyme Standard...but all they are doing is playing a delusional game in their own mind. Cheers! Phantom +1,000 Hate it when people think what we do is reenacting. Then I have to explain. NO. We are a shooting competition. We are a timed event that shoots real bullets at steel targets. And do it with old western style guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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