Brooklyn Slim Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Getting ready to load 45-70 and 44-40. Been reading up and looking at a lot of Youtube, and trying to decide if I need to quench the brass after heating it to temperature. Seems like a lot do, and many don't, saying copper/brass doesn't behave like steel. Does it matter one way or the other? Or is there a reason not to quench. Really don't want to worry about drying the brass if I don't need to. Appreciate any advice. B Slim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sagerider Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I quench in the annealing process for my 45 Colts. I do not know anyone who does not. Drying following the quenching process is not a problem for me. Drain them and place in the sun. Dry and ready to go in a few hours. How much work is that? Sagerider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Do NOT quench-Serves no purpose with non-ferrous metal. Anneal in a darkened room. Look for the case mouth to just start to turn a dull/dark red. Any more than that-The case is ruined. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Slim Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 I quench in the annealing process for my 45 Colts. I do not know anyone who does not. Drying following the quenching process is not a problem for me. Drain them and place in the sun. Dry and ready to go in a few hours. How much work is that? Sagerider SUN????? What SUN?? Hasn't been above freezing here for what seems like all year. Appreciate your input on quenching. B Slim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rio Brazos Kid Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Quenching after heating your brass in the process of annealing your brass, has for decades been customary. Changing that process on someones decision that it isn't necessary, IMHO is not the brightest thing to do. Sticking with the time proven method, (Heat and quench), makes the most sense. It never fails to work. RBK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Quenching after heating your brass in the process of annealing your brass, has for decades been customary. Changing that process on someones decision that it isn't necessary, IMHO is not the brightest thing to do. Sticking with the time proven method, (Heat and quench), makes the most sense. It never fails to work. RBK Your dead wrong. Quenching brass cases, serves NO metallurgical purpose at all. Like I said-Non ferrous metal is annealed buy the heating. This is proven fact. I anneal 5.56mm, 7.62x51mm, 30-06, 300WM, .45-70, .45-90 and 50BMG. Quenching is for ferrous metals ONLY. http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html http://www.texas-mac.com/Annealing_Case_Necks.html Facts, are stubborn things, LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Howdy Pardon my ignorance, but why do you think you have to anneal 44-40 brass? I have been loading it for years, never annealed it. If you are worried about work hardening the case mouth, just don't over-bell the case mouth. Only bell it enough so that the bullets slip in without shaving any lead. The bells on my 44-40 brass are barely visible, but I can feel them with my fingers. They get reloaded many times without splitting. For what it's worth, I have never annealed 45-70 brass either, but perhaps the BPCR guys do for ultimate precision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sagerider Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Brooklyn, Grits tells me there is no metallurgical purpose for quenching brass and he is probably right. However, I know I can pick up and work all my brass immediately following their heating. As for the sun or lack thereof, you will have to speak to the Man upstairs. Just go set them by that brand new Mayor in NYC, he is surely hot enough to dry them quickly. Sagerider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duffield, SASS #23454 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I always stand brass upright in water to anneal. Tipping them over to quench makes the mouths dead soft, so I don't. I am always willing to learn a better way. If you keep the brass dry throughout the process, how do you keep from annealing the case heads? I thought that brass conducts heat well enough to make this a real possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Brass CAN be quenched (better called "cooled very quickly") without losing the affects of the softening that comes from annealing the case mouths. Rapid cooling does NOTHING to the annealed soft brass - it stays soft. What rapid cooling can add is CONVENIENCE and A GUARANTEE that the case head does not get softened. So, to make the process of annealing as simple and foolproof as possible, most of the instructional material shows cases standing with the head in a water bath, and the necks flame annealed and then tipped over to cool, mostly so that you can pick up the cases right away without burning yourself! There is no gain in rapid cooling brass from a metallurgical sense. There is no harm in rapid cooling from a metallurgical sense. What makes brass soft is the heating to about 700 degrees F. Annealing works also by dipping the mouth in a pot of molten lead for a few seconds. Just don't anneal the case head and cause that part to get soft. If you want to try flame annealing without quenching, then you might take a tip from one commercial process that I have seen. Have a brass block drilled to just fit over the case neck - perhaps the top third of the case. Turn the block so the case can be inserted from the top. Play a torch flame on the block to get it to a just visible dull red in very low light. Insert case into block for about five seconds and pull it out. As long as you can still touch the case head, you know it never gets over 150 F, and is safe from being annealed. If a case sticks in the heating block, though, it should be discarded as it has been annealed throughout by about 20 seconds. (This extra setup is what makes folks who do not want to dry brass use the molten lead method). To me, drying brass is no big deal. A day left out on some towels, turn the cases over a couple of times, they will be dry. Drying is easy compared to annealing, and most annealing is not even necessary in CAS type loadings. Unless you are doing the old "make a 45 Colt shoot like a 38 spl" trick, which really is best done by using a smaller case, not a softer case. (A message from double-degreed metallurgist, if it makes any difference) Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litl Red Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Quenching serves a purpose. It "freezes" the annealing process where it is. You only anneal what you saw turn color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snakebite Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 This has been discussed here on the wire and other places many times over the years. We hear from folks who seem to have a great scientific knowledge about metallurgy, and of course, only a fool would argue with them... I sure would not. They are absolutely and completely correct, though not always right. I am a creature of habit and generally prefer to do things that I know will work. For the many years that I have been annealing brass cases, I have always set them in a pan of water that I can move to let them fall over and be quenched. This is the way the old man who taught me did it, and it has always worked. Maybe not necessary, but the process yields a brass case that is malleable at the mouth and hard at the head... THAT is what you are trying to obtain. Snakebite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brooklyn Slim Posted February 11, 2014 Author Share Posted February 11, 2014 Thanks to the folks who took the time to share their knowledge and experience. I have a better feeling for the process, especially the need to avoid overheating the head of the case. Best advice was to send any "quenched" brass up to NYC, and have it set out during one of the new mayor's press conferences. Should dry them out pretty quick. B Slim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Quenching serves a purpose. It "freezes" the annealing process where it is. You only anneal what you saw turn color. With non-ferrous metal, the heat alone is the annealing. Quench'n does nut'n to 'freeze' the annealing process. If you keep the case head below 450*. Your fine. Here is a good starter kit. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/360902/hornady-annealing-system Easy way to do case annealing. http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jun96cases.html The best there is. http://www.bench-source.com/id81.html There is no proven reason to quench cartridge cases after annealing, it serves no purpose at all. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Howdy For what it's worth, I have never annealed 45-70 brass either, but perhaps the BPCR guys do for ultimate precision. We do, for increased case life and uniform bullet tension/release. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack, SASS #20451 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Lumpy, I have the Bench Source Vertex annealing machine. it is WONDERFUL !!!! I can't imagine doing a correct job of annealing without it. I use it on everthing from 223 to 50BMG. ALWAYS get perfect results. There is no way to anneal by hand and get repeatable results unless you tempilaq every case. Quenching is a total waste of time. Just let them drop onto a pan or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I rec'd a Bench Source for Xmas. Agree with what you say about'em. I did hand anneal for decades with good results. With the Bench Source, I have a catch box and keep a fan run'n on it to cool cases down. Works great. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litl Red Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 With non-ferrous metal, the heat alone is the annealing. Quench'n does nut'n to 'freeze' the annealing process. Quenching does STOP (or freeze) the process. Whatever you heated enough is annealed. It also contains heat and heat conducts. By quenching, residual heat is removed, stopping it from conducting into the rest of the case. Quenching freezes the annealing process right where it is when you dunk the case in the water: in the mouth and not in the case head, which no one wishes to anneal. It might be overkill for rifle cases, but useful when doing short pistol cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Quenching does STOP (or freeze) the process. Whatever you heated enough is annealed. It also contains heat and heat conducts. By quenching, residual heat is removed, stopping it from conducting into the rest of the case. Quenching freezes the annealing process right where it is when you dunk the case in the water: in the mouth and not in the case head, which no one wishes to anneal. It might be overkill for rifle cases, but useful when doing short pistol cases. Your source for your statements? Annealing stops, when you remove the heat source in non-ferrous metal. Quenching does not stop the annealing process. Lack of heat does. It takes almost 700* to anneal cartridge 'brass' which is 70% Copper/30% Zinc, aka C260 alloy. LG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Thanks to the folks who took the time to share their knowledge and experience. I have a better feeling for the process, especially the need to avoid overheating the head of the case. Best advice was to send any "quenched" brass up to NYC, and have it set out during one of the new mayor's press conferences. Should dry them out pretty quick. B Slim Asked and answered. In memory of the last time this came up, I'm closing this thread now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.