What's the Call?

[Captain Bill Burt]

OK then we can agree the operative word here is in the stage description which stated "Held in HandS" and the plural Hands means two hands and therefore the shooter was started in a faulted position. The underlying question and the one most important for me to have the answer is the definition of Ammunition in hand. Does touching the ammo while still in the cartridge loops qualify? I have seen, on more than one occasion, where the stage description states for the shotgun, " shotgun held at cowboy port arms." The shooter has one hand on ammo but still in the loops. Not trying to beat a dead horse but since the stage description does not state both hands on shotgun, does that mean one hand can be on shells?

 

Waco

I'm not sure on this one Waco, but I'll venture an 'interpretation'. If any part of a round is in the chamber of a long gun we interpret that as a round in the chamber. Even is a pistol isn't fully in a holster it's considered to be holstered. Under the old rule if the action is open, even just a little bit, it was considered open. So, even if just a small part of a round is in its loop I would not consider it to be in hand.

 

BTW Ramrod, I'm not trying to start an argument, but the OP put quotes around the relevant part, but said blah blah about the part he considered unimportant.

 

Other than that we seem to be in agreement, shooter gets a P.

[Rye Miles #13621]

AT our local match this past weekend one stage had an optional bonus target which required a reload of the rifle with one round, "On the Clock." Stage description for rifle was: "10+ and held in hands with muzzle towards the target." Start standing, bla, bla, bla, holding rifle and when ready say the line. One shooter held the rifle, with one hand and the other hand was touching cartridges which were still in the loop, but touching them never the less.

 

 

 

 

IN HANDS means IN HANDS=Plural= BOTH HANDS

 

I say "P" and take the timer away from whoever was running it!

 

Rye

[Gus 'Buck' Silver]

I have seen, on more than one occasion, where the stage description states for the shotgun, " shotgun held at cowboy port arms." The shooter has one hand on ammo but still in the loops. Not trying to beat a dead horse but since the stage description does not state both hands on shotgun, does that mean one hand can be on shells?

 

Waco

 

No! The stage description does not need to say "both hands" as it's part of the definition of "Cowboy port arms."

 

 

Range Operations Basic Safety Course (Level I)

Version 19.2 – January 2014

Stage Conventions – Page 13

10. Cowboy port arms is defined as standing fully erect with the butt of the long gun at or below the waist of the shooter, the muzzle at or above the shoulder, and the long gun held with both hands.

[Smokey Shayne]

Add me to the hand/hands group. I have been writing montly stages for a couple of years and will often use hand or hands.

If its hand.....thats 1 hand on the gun and the other hand wherever you want it.

If its hands...thats both hands on the gun

 

As far as touching the ammo, I see no problem with it, as long as its still in the loops. But...again that is just my opinion

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Rifle in Hand means the same to me as Rifle in Hands...sorry...that's the way I "Feel" about it.

 

And the ammo in hand issue is a separate issue...one that I see answered in the Conventions. Giving a starting position does not throw out all Conventions.

 

Phantom

[Smokey Shayne]

Dont be sorry about the way you feel about it.

 

If Im shooting somewhere and thats the way they want it to be done....I have no problem with that. All the TO has to do is let me know thats not the way they want it done. Trust me....I wont argue.

 

I still see no issue with hand touching ammo....even after re-reading the stage conventions. IS touching ammo the same as in hand? The same as in hand / hands?

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

Where does it stop.......? I guess we will have to give a detailed start position for every stage and/or get lawyered up!

 

Mister, you might wanna re-phrase that!

[Waco Jim]

It looks like this thread has run its course and I appreciate all your comments. As some of you may know I have been writing the stages for our club for about a year now and I wrote this particular stage. I am always interested in improving my stage writing skills and I have learned several things from this thread. For example, the word Hand and Hands have two seperate meanings and are very important in the stage description. In the future when it comes to long guns, I will leave no doubt as to the hand/hands positions. Instructions that are not clear and specific sets up the TO for a faulted start as happened here. As for the definition of "Ammunition in hand" it seems the majority feel ammunition in the loops is not ammunition in hand and that squares with my own logic as well.

 

Waco

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

I can see in the not to far future, we're going to have to build a cart just to tote our rule book to matches and settle disputes. MT

[Anvil Al #59168]

I just like stage writers to put down what they mean.

Don't assume we are going to know what you want.

 

Hands in stead of hand. Is that really so hard to add that S on the end if that is what you want??

 

Or. Engage the 10 rifle targets and THEN reload and engage the bonus target.

 

Or is it really that hard to add a stage note at the end of the stage like.

You may reload for the bonus target at any time.

 

If you are really that lazy to add one letter or one word or even a stage note to clear

things up for everyone. Maybe you should pass off the stage writing to another.

 

Sorry. Just the way I feel about it.

 

Good stage writing is a art. And not for everyone.

[SOUTH-PACIFIC,SASS #59402]

I am going to put my 2cents here.

the wording did not say when or how the rifle was to be loaded. 10+1 pointed down range

what are you pointing down range the ammo or rifle or both

A P.P. written instruction

 

 

when a description of a stage is placed here on the wire print the whole senero and the problem that occurred

GAMERS HEAVEN

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

Shooters are mobile. Many shoot at multiple clubs. Some shoot at only one club all the time. These shooters get familiar with what the stage writer wants and it is no problem. Visitors come and are not familiar with the stage writer and try to do exactly what the written word says. If the writer leaves out something and assumes everyone knows, then issues develop. When I visit, if there is any doubt I ask.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

It looks like this thread has run its course and I appreciate all your comments. As some of you may know I have been writing the stages for our club for about a year now and I wrote this particular stage. I am always interested in improving my stage writing skills and I have learned several things from this thread. For example, the word Hand and Hands have two seperate meanings and are very important in the stage description. In the future when it comes to long guns, I will leave no doubt as to the hand/hands positions. Instructions that are not clear and specific sets up the TO for a faulted start as happened here. As for the definition of "Ammunition in hand" it seems the majority feel ammunition in the loops is not ammunition in hand and that squares with my own logic as well.

 

Waco

Ammo in hands...in my limited experience...means Don't Be Touching Your Ammo.

 

But...what do I know.

 

Do whatcha like...

 

Phantom

[Waco Jim]

I just like stage writers to put down what they mean.

Don't assume we are going to know what you want.

 

Hands in stead of hand. Is that really so hard to add that S on the end if that is what you want??

 

Or. Engage the 10 rifle targets and THEN reload and engage the bonus target.

 

Or is it really that hard to add a stage note at the end of the stage like.

You may reload for the bonus target at any time.

 

If you are really that lazy to add one letter or one word or even a stage note to clear

things up for everyone. Maybe you should pass off the stage writing to another.

 

Sorry. Just the way I feel about it.

 

Good stage writing is a art. And not for everyone.

Hey Anvil,

I don't need a lecture from you!

 

Waco

[Anvil Al #59168]

Hey Anvil,

I don't need a lecture from you!

 

Waco

 

Hey Jim.

Who said that was pointed at YOU.

It was not.

 

It was a general comment on stage writing.

[Hoss]

i'm relativly new to CAS, about 20 months, probably 30-35 matches. so i'm still learning. As a club member who tries to "pull his weight" I have volunteered to be MD. writing shooting sequnces is tough. I try to think of every possible oops, but obviously, every once in a while one will sneak by me. I hope to learn when that happens and not do it again. I would not even attempt to write for a annual match, only monthly at this point in time. If I got bashed at club level or here on the wire FOR AN HONEST MISTAKE I doubt I would ever volunteer again. Its not about being lazy, or not wantinjg to be clear, its a learning process.

[Anvil Al #59168]

i'm relativly new to CAS, about 20 months, probably 30-35 matches. so i'm still learning. As a club member who tries to "pull his weight" I have volunteered to be MD. writing shooting sequnces is tough. I try to think of every possible oops, but obviously, every once in a while one will sneak by me. I hope to learn when that happens and not do it again. I would not even attempt to write for a annual match, only monthly at this point in time. If I got bashed at club level or here on the wire FOR AN HONEST MISTAKE I doubt I would ever volunteer again. Its not about being lazy, or not wantinjg to be clear, its a learning process.

 

 

We all learn from our mistakes. And yes even the best of stage writers will let one slip by at times.

But I have been around long enough and traveled enough to see lazy stage writing.

And yes it was lazy. Looks like they wrote a 6 stage match in about 10 minutes. Not going back to read

or reread or think about what they wrote.

Then you got posses having to go back and forth getting clarification on every thing.

 

That is what I am talking about. Not someone just learning or a screw up now and then.

 

Like I said. Stage writing is a art that not everyone has. Even long time shooters. it is not just those

learning how.

 

And yes. There are lazy stage writers out there.

 

Lucky I live in a area that has some pretty good stage writers.

[Griff]

Ok, I wasn't, but now I will chime in on this one. 1st, I'm slow as molasses, don't ever practice, hardly get to shoot, but I am a GAMER to the bitter end... even have the card from Buck D. Law sayin' so.

 

Given the level of grammar, punctuation and spelling errors used on this forum by both those asking question and those attempting to answer them; and we're going to argue over the use of "hand" vs. "hands" as used in a stage description? If the stage writer deviates from the defined positions, unless he's VERY clear in his description, he's going to suffer the ignominy of being interpreted... sometimes correctly, sometimes not so much.

 

It seems many of you skipped over the "...with muzzle towards the target." What does that mean? Mounted at the shoulder with sights on target? At the low ready with the muzzle simply downrange? Frankly I can see several positions holding the rifle that would comply with that starting position whether it said hand or hands and still be able to be touching my ammo.

 

Lastly, if you're of the mindset that a person can't hold a long gun pointed downrange in a safe manner with only one hand, and are picturing a specific individual, or don't feel confident about your own abilities on that position, maybe you ought to rethink having that person shoot with y'all.

[Waco Jim]

 

 

We all learn from our mistakes. And yes even the best of stage writers will let one slip by at times.

But I have been around long enough and traveled enough to see lazy stage writing.

And yes it was lazy. Looks like they wrote a 6 stage match in about 10 minutes. Not going back to read

or reread or think about what they wrote.

Then you got posses having to go back and forth getting clarification on every thing.

 

That is what I am talking about. Not someone just learning or a screw up now and then.

 

Like I said. Stage writing is a art that not everyone has. Even long time shooters. it is not just those

learning how.

 

And yes. There are lazy stage writers out there.

 

Lucky I live in a area that has some pretty good stage writers.

Anvil,

This is the second comment from you that I take to be directed at me. Did you not read my post on this thread where I stated that I wrote the stage in question? I can take your comments no other way than to be a personal affront and calling me lazy as a stage writer. Somehow I don't believe you speak in such a rude and crude manner when facing an individual. You know nothing about this stage other than what I have posted on this thread and from that you have concluded that it's "Lazy" stage writing. Your arrogance astounds me. I have a suggestion that in the future you stay off my threads and I'll do the same for yours.

[Krazy Kajun]

https://www.google.com/search?q=lock+picture&client=firefox-a&hs=fQ1&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=sb&tbm=isch&imgil=yRXNPoehrPQufM%253A%253Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fencrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com%252Fimages%253Fq%253Dtbn%253AANd9GcTMO-AdNiYRh7eV40RorDGU1B3dSDn5m7WyIo5fOvcg3j4pCr99%253B720%253B720%253B6mq3tW7LN44FmM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Ffindicons.com%25252Ficon%25252F84760%25252Flock&source=iu&usg=__alcsoTEShnDiDFWLDIPfkWWntjg%3D&sa=X&ei=cI_6Ur6sIYqV1AHA9IGwCg&ved=0CEIQ9QEwAw&biw=1344&bih=696

[Anvil Al #59168]

Well Jim you took it the wrong way.

It was NOT directed at you in any way.

Sorry you took it that way.

As I said earlier. It was a general comment on stage writing.

[Cowboy Rick, SASS #49739L]

I just like stage writers to put down what they mean.

Don't assume we are going to know what you want.

 

Hands in stead of hand. Is that really so hard to add that S on the end if that is what you want??

 

Or. Engage the 10 rifle targets and THEN reload and engage the bonus target.

 

Or is it really that hard to add a stage note at the end of the stage like.

You may reload for the bonus target at any time.

 

If you are really that lazy to add one letter or one word or even a stage note to clear

things up for everyone. Maybe you should pass off the stage writing to another.

 

Sorry. Just the way I feel about it.

 

Good stage writing is a art. And not for everyone.

There are times when even the best stage writers will have a lapse and leave an opening for one of those blasted "Gamers". If you want to game a stage (by that, I mean take all the possible LEGAL shortcuts), ask first before you risk the P. We have a great language that has punctuation marks. Use this one "?" if you're not sure. Walk throughs can help with things like this as well. I love finding little things to shorten my stage times, but I sure hate the P when it's not on the TOs radar and it gets read wrong.

 

"In hand" to me means up to and including held at the shooting position, shouldered and pointing at the target. Never considered just one hand. Had the question been asked, we would have been deprived of an interesting thread.

 

CR

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi Waco Jim,

 

If Al says he wasn't directing his comments at you personally, take that at face value. Besides, he apologized. Please, leave it at that.

 

Can't we all just get along.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS Don't tell Al I wrote this...he can be a bit curt at times.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PPS From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/you?s=t

 

One of many definitions of the word "you:" one; anyone; people in general

[Red Cent]

I make a motion that all start descriptions on written stages incorporate a picture of the intended start position.

[Captain Bill Burt]

I make a motion that all start descriptions on written stages incorporate a picture of the intended start position.

+1

Preferably utilizing ladies they choose for Sports Illustrated calendars!

[Diamond S Doug]

+1

Preferably utilizing ladies they choose for Sports Illustrated calendars!

In keeping with the firearms motif I suggest we use the Dillon girls.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

<pondering> What ever happened to those girls that held onto the RIDGID tools?

[Captain Bill Burt]

<pondering> What ever happened to those girls that held onto the RIDGID tools?

Tell em.........No, it wouldn't be 'nice'.......Tell em!........no mind your manners.........tell em......

 

Dang, that pitch is hangin right over the sweet spot.........guess I'll take a pass and not get banned.

 

Sigh!

[Cowboy Junky]

Stage writing is a tough job....and even tougher to be good at it. I am constantly learning and "hopefully" getting better as the years pass. I try to look at the stages and remove any "grey" areas from starting positions and paint the shooter in the corner where I want them to be.....that way it is the same for everyone.

 

I always try to step back and put on my gamer glasses and see if there is anything I missed. Once you do that it's pretty easy to get standardization from one shooter to another and one posse to the next.

 

We start these threads to learn and they are a great tool........I know most of us are good folks and only want to help but sometimes (unless you really know how to write.....and I don't) the emotionless words on a page can be misleading.